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A lot of readers here, and on Reddit seem to be misunderstanding the situation. The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installati
by LeonM 6y ago
A lot of readers here, and on Reddit seem to be misunderstanding the situation.
The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats.
The car disabled itself during installation. The OP assumed due to an anti-temper device, but it could have been any failure mode. Most modern cars with airbags will have sensors in the seats to disable some of the airbags if there is no passenger sitting there. So it is no surprise that any type of work on the seats puts this system in an error state. Especially on high-performance cars it is not unusual that the car immobilises itself when the safety systems are in error state.
A certified dealership will have the computer interface and software to reset the fault mode. For those that do not have this software, Ferrari can remote into the car and reset it for you. This requires connectivity though. This is actually quite a common thing on luxury cars.
This has nothing to do with 'smart' modes, remote hacking capability or disabling a car while in motion. The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking. This is, in fact, a safety system that kicked in.
The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside, and let Ferrari do it's thing. Or trailer it to a certified dealership to have it reset there.
- lozaning 6y ago>The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking If your car can connect to the internet it's vulnerable to hacking via the internet. My car, which is incapable of connecting to the internet suffers no such potential for abuse.
- bdamm 6y agoJust because the car has external connectivity doesn't mean the car has abusable vulnerabilities. Of course, some vendors are going to be better than others when it comes to hardening, pen-testing, and good operational security.
- mysterydip 6y agoEven if the only allowable connection is the legitimate manufacturer's, the manufacturer itself could be compromised one day (if not already), allowing malicious commands to be sent on the trusted downlink. Or an "oops I found a bug in the code you just pushed to 100,000 cars" could happen accodentally.
- Retric 6y agoIt’s unlikely but possible for an over the airway connection to actually be inherently secure. One example is an isolated system that could monitor say engine temperatures and oil pressure and nothing else.
- compiler-guy 6y agoThat sort of system is totally _possible_, but not the way any modern automotive connectivity works.
- outworlder 6y agoModern automotive connectivity is via the CAN bus. It is not a given that the system that's internet connected is even able to talk to the CAN bus.
- Dylan16807 6y agoHow's it going to unlock the car if it's not talking to the important parts? Sure someone could make a dedicated secure unlock wire or something, but they don't.
- novok 6y agoMost are. GM OnStar systems & Tesla I know for sure are designed in a way that a malicious hack of HQ computers + research into car firmware could lead to a push that would kill potentially millions of people simultaneously. If I really dived into the others, I wouldn't be surprised if ford, VW, toyota and others had similar system design issues. We are just lucky we live in a world where even 'hackers' don't go that low. I hope future regulation will mandate remote access airgaps. I don't think it's a big price to pay for non-entertainment / GPS software updates to require a physical connection
- umvi 6y agoTheoretically if the systems are properly decoupled and airgapped than the hacking surface area should be quite low. You might be able to hijack the music coming through the speakers, but you should never be able to control the brakes over the internet. In real life is that what actually happens? Sadly, no. Car companies seem to make a lot of bone-headed systems engineering design decisions (such as having a computer network path connecting infotainment to critical safety systems)
- R0b0t1 6y agoHow small the surface is is irrelevant, an internet connected car is more of a risk. I don't want all these features in a car.
- Faark 6y ago> Theoretically if the systems are properly decoupled and airgapped than the hacking surface area should be quite low. Since an over the air update is supposed to improve your 0 to 60 times, pretty much all systems must allow to be updated and thus hardly can be airgapped.
- TheCoelacanth 6y agoSomething that is connected to the Internet is, by definition, not airgapped.
- castratikron 6y agoIt's probably on a VPN or a private APN and not the internet.
- jobu 6y ago> The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats. It was even more basic than that. They were installing a child's carseat for the owner, and I believe it was an anti-theft system that was triggered. The story reminded me a lot of the rental car that bricked itself because it lost cellular service - https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/02/driver-stranded-after-connected-rental-car-cant-call-home/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/02/driver-stranded-after-c...
- birdyrooster 6y agoWho puts a child’s carseat in a Ferrari?
- sneak 6y agoSomeone trying to show off their money by driving their Ferrari to the grocery store.
- nrmitchi 6y agoSomeone who has both a child, and a Ferrari.
- compsciphd 6y agodoes it have a back seat?
- lisper 6y agoSome do. https://www.ferrari.com/en-US/auto/gtc4lusso https://www.ferrari.com/en-US/auto/gtc4lusso But what difference does that make? Why couldn't you put a car seat in the front passenger seat of a two-seater?
- Igelau 6y agoAirbags are not designed with the bodies of children or infants in rear-facing carseats in mind. They're actually really dangerous for them - potentially lethal.
- rlpb 6y ago> The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside, and let Ferrari do it's thing. Or trailer it to a certified dealership to have it reset there. This sounds like it invokes the "right to repair" issue though. Is this "Right to repair, but only if the car's online"?
- LeonM 6y ago> "Right to repair, but only if the car's online" You have the right to repair. But you do need the correct tools to do it. If you don't have those tools, Ferrari may help you remotely, but you'll need connectivity for that obviously.
- rlpb 6y agoIt looks to me like it's not possible to acquire or make the correct tool, and only Ferrari dealers have it, because it's been restricted by Ferrari. But that's not clear from the information given.
- sneak 6y ago> The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking. I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what it means. What happens when someone steals the manufacturer's authentication keys, or gets on to the manufacturer's VPN?
- LeonM 6y agoSecurity and safety systems in a car are 2 different things. Being able to reset a car that was immobilised due to a failure in the safety system does not mean that you can steal it, nor does it mean that you could create a dangerous situation. Resetting the system does not mean overriding. If the problem persists, the car will automatically immobilise again are the reset.
- dharmab 6y ago> The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside, and let Ferrari do it's thing. The solution was not simple. https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/j9qnh3/final_update_and_there_it_goes_boys_a_true_marvel/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/j9qn...
- jccooper 6y agoThe "car seat" is a child safety seat, or booster seat. They were strapping an extra apparatus in on existing hard points, nothing that would bother the airbags at all. It was probably some sort of anti-theft mode.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoAgreed, I also really dislike this frequent misuse of the term "bricking". Bricking used to mean getting your device into a permanently unrecoverable state, but these days I see it used so often as just to mean "I can't turn it on right now".
- joosters 6y agoLanguage evolves, it's not set in stone. Besides, the car might still be bricked, as far as we know? Perhaps the onboard computer is screwed and needs a replacement?
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago> Language evolves, it's not set in stone. Yeah, but in this instance I feel like the language is evolving solely because it makes for better clickbait titles. "Bricked" sure sounds scarier than "temporarily unavailable".
- ClumsyPilot 6y agoWell almost nothing is actually 100% bricked, most phones or motherboards (for bios) can be programmed through some hardware interface. If you brought it to the factory / R&D lab, odds are they would be able to flash most things they designed. It's just difficult and uneconomical, so isnt offered as a service
- m463 6y agoYou're right of course, but nowadays it's become sort of "some working object has become inert due to software and requires physical intervention"
- Someone 6y agoSo, how is a user to know the difference between “I tried all methods known to me and googled for solutions, but can't turn it on right now”, “the hardware is fine, but nobody can turn it on ever again” and “there’s a hardware problem that means nobody can turn it on again”? Because if that, I think it’s natural that the concept gets broadened.
- aleksandrm 6y agoThere was an update to the story. They pushed the car outside but that didn't help so they had to tow it.
- chiefalchemist 6y agoIn other words, a classic case of: It's not a bug, it's a feature.
- brigade 6y ago> A certified dealership will have the computer interface and software to reset the fault mode. For those that do not have this software, Ferrari can remote into the car and reset it for you. Ferrari actually flew a technician in to visit this car, who then said "yep, nothing I can do here." Then they had to push it out and tow it.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- JKCalhoun 6y agoThe way I understand it: "smart" everything is getting too clever for its own good. In your example, why not have a push-button override to allow the car to reset after seat installation? Soft-everything. I miss my hardware switches. - signed getting grumpy, getting old man
- beervirus 6y agoI get what you're saying, but: > The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking. I mean, it pretty much does.
- worewood 6y ago> let Ferrari do it's thing. Or trailer it to a certified dealership to have it reset there. This is a very Apple-like line of thinking. It's not a valid excuse.
- Polylactic_acid 6y agoLuxury car brands are Apple like. Reputation is everything. They don't want someone modifying the car causing it to fail and becoming a big news event. So many stories about explosive batteries and chargers on phones are the result of some dirt cheap china part being used but the news just reports "Product from corporation bursts in to flames"
- andoriyu 6y agoWell, if you read all 3 posts - Ferrari flew specialist that couldn't do anything. It's not exactly straight forward to tow car that doesn't move out of the garage with such low ceiling. They had to manually release handbrake from boot and push it out of the garage.
- outworlder 6y ago> The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside They did. Because the car did not have connectivity at the time it detected the issue, it went into full lockdown (judging by the comments, it kept trying for a while, couldn't connect, assumed the worst). The car performed exactly the way it was programmed to perform. Tampering was detected. No connectivity was found. Lockdown. It will now have to be serviced by Ferrari, a local tech is not enough. It is difficult to imagine a system that's just as secure but less inconvenient. If you open the door for local 'patches', then you open avenues of attack. Better to do a `rm -rf *` and blow up a firmware chip or two for good measure. Threat vectors are potentially more sophisticated for these cars, if there's a way to locally bypass the lockdown, it will be found. The target demographic for these cars will not be inconvenienced much. As per the post, the owner went and got his Maserati. So the takeaway for any Ferrari owners is: make sure there's connectivity if you are trying to perform any changes to the vehicle.
- mcguire 6y ago"This has nothing to do with 'smart' modes, remote hacking capability or disabling a car while in motion. The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking. This is, in fact, a safety system that kicked in." Uh, that should be the other way around: "The fact that the manufacturer cannot remote into their cars automatically means that the car is not vulnerable to [that form of] remote hacking."
- phyzome 6y ago> So it is no surprise that any type of work on the seats puts this system in an error state. It's only not surprising if you already know a ton about cars, which is a terrible definition of "surprising" to use here.
- joncp 6y ago> anti-temper device I want one.
- Aeolun 6y ago> The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking. I don’t see how that follows? The fact that someone can remote into your car is exactly what makes it vulnerable to remote hacking.
- SilasX 6y ago>The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside, and let Ferrari do it's thing Except the self-same failure mode means you can't bring it outside either except via an expensive process. More generally, I don't know how any of your points should reassure anyone. Put yourself in this driver's place and tell me how dismissive you'd be at such an event.