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https://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the

https://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_of_Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...

barumi 6y ago
It´s like Apple wants to enforce censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships, but doesn´t want to deal with the consequences of enforcing censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  It hurts their PR. They can't be out there doing ad campaigns taking a dig at the Facebooks and the Googles of the world whilst overtly abiding to the whims of totalitarian regimes.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    But it's Belarus, the government is highly unpopular in the West and not really popular anywhere else. And it's not like China where they'd lose a giant market if they decided to stand up to the government, Belarus has a population of under 10m with an average income of under $6k a year. It might just be about doxxing, but the PR problem remains, of course.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      I would be very surprised this being just it, the chance of them finding out about obscure chat channels in a country across the ocean without somebody from Apple having a job monitoring them full time is infinitesimal. This very much reminds me how Google disappeared websites of Russian opposition (weeks after signing some memorandum with kremlin,) and then told "maybe they need to improve their search engine friendliness?"
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Apple monitors them or actively looks for doxxing, but that somebody (potentially from the police) informed them about it, they took a look and concluded that it's against their policy. I don't know whether that's a common thing, and I expect many companies wouldn't go the Telegram route and publish the demands because they don't want to put stress on their relationship with Apple. Discord apparently has channels that are used for similar activities, but I don't know whether Apple has asked Discord to hide those channels from the app, or whether anyone complained to Apple in the first place.
        baybal2 6y ago
        For as long as I know, it's explicitly legally forbidden for private parties in US to engage in foreign relations. So, "even" by the word of US law, Apple has no permission to engage with Belarus government.
        luckylion 6y ago
        I don't think somebody reporting content for policy review (Apple's content policy, not foreign policy) is affected by any US laws. That person wouldn't have to be an Apple customer, they wouldn't have to be a user, they wouldn't have to be outside the US. I doubt there are any laws that would forbid Apple from taking or acting on a report of content policy violations.
        baybal2 6y ago
        Now, take a deep breath, and think how realistic that prospect is.
        vmvarga 6y ago
        It probably is just about doxxing, but it still shows how scummy and so far up their own ass Apple is. Just think about the lenght of the reach - trying to regulate what content somebody on a messenger app should post, not even social media platform like twitter/facebook (do they monitor those too? Telling them which groups to have?) They feel like they're creating their own little world, their own universe. And it's not some unambiguous situation like posting nudes of your ex gfs, it's very complicated what's happening in Belarus, at the very least they shouldn't interfere. But they couldn't care less about democracies of the world, if there's a slightest chance that Apple very very remotely might burn - they're OUT. And on top of that they want you to be clueless about it.
    - wh1t3n01s3 6y ago
      the Belarus government is very popular in Russia ;-)
      - luckylion 6y ago
        With the government, certainly. Are they also popular with the people, that is, would anyone switch away from iOs because Apple stood up to Belarus?
saagarjha 6y ago
Not only are you forced to follow whatever Apple tells you to do, you’re not allowed to communicate as such because it might make Apple look bad to users who don’t know any better. It’s really a quite inconvenient situation.
- boudin 6y ago
  That's been a technique that apple have been using quite a bit. Forbid apps to be transparent with their customers around apple rules. This way app users are pissed at the app makers not apple.
  - akudha 6y ago
    Isn't this the same tactic that govt agencies use? Apple is simply borrowing the idea
    - boudin 6y ago
      And? It's not an excuse.
      - akudha 6y ago
        I never said it is an excuse.
    - halter73 6y ago
      Are you referring to gag orders related to ongoing criminal investigations or something else?
  - kossTKR 6y ago
    Can you give any examples of this happening? Not doubting at all.
    - summerlight 6y ago
      One of the most recent case: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/apple-rejects-facebook-app-that-says-apple-takes-30percent-cut.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/apple-rejects-facebook-app-t...
pamicel 6y ago
Gotta say, the 1984 Apple commercial feels more and more ironic This is worthy of the Ministry of Truth
- Bluestein 6y ago
  These must be the Information Purification Directives, it seems :) To wit: "Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology [...]" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I (Talk about a "walled garden" ...)
afwe 6y ago
But those notices really are irrelevant, right? I mean, there is nothing I can do to bypass them. It's bad UX, like showing a disabled button that I can't enable by any means. Having said this, you can still use Telegram Web on Safari to bypass these restrictions.
- notRobot 6y ago
  No, they're not irrelevant. These notices tell people why they can't access certain information. They improve the user experience, otherwise the users will not know why certain information is suddenly inaccessible to them.
- ernesth 6y ago
  First, I do not think they are irrelevant, but it's probably subjective. Second, them being irrelevant is certainly not a good reason to forbid those notices. Third, that they are forbidden makes them all the more relevant.
- eitland 6y ago
  Spoken like a problematic ux-er ;-) Visible but disabled items can be important for discoverability. Knowing when and where to apply which ux rules is probably more important than knowing all the rules. FTR: I'm happy to work with what I think are good ux-ers so they certainly do exist.
  - afwe 6y ago
    Visible but disabled items are only useful if they can be enabled in a more-or-less obvious way. Showing a disabled item that you can't enable in any way is bad UX. Am I wrong?
    - grncdr 6y ago
      Yes
    - username90 6y ago
      Knowing that Apple is preventing you from accessing it gives you a way to enable it again: By pressuring Apple to stop doing these shitty things. Same thing with displaying Apples 30% app cuts, if it was clearly shown everywhere likely people would pressure Apple to reduce it which is why you aren't allowed to show it. Edit: Reading the article again, there is actually a very simple fix to view these posts: Go over to your friend with an android and access them to there, and then remember to buy android in the future to avoid censorship like this. This is surely the main reason Apple doesn't let them show this note.
echelon 6y ago
Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a computer, not some gaming console. It has to be free for freedom. You should be able to install straight off the web. And before you downvote me, please look again how much Apple gives a damn about democracy in the world. And look what it's doing because of its power. Double plus ungood. It's an American device. It should act like it!
- RealStickman_ 6y ago
  > It's an American device. It should act like it! I don't think what the USA is doing is something that should be followed. See anything privacy endangering in the US. That's a really random nitpick though and I get what you meant.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Tim Cook is not a good person. Source: The people he engages with as he attempts to increase Apple's market cap. https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2018/04/07/6f86bd65-aefa-4ada-a251-1905b9000a44/6f86bd65-aefa-4ada-a251-1905b9000a44.jpg https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2018/04/07/6f86bd65-aefa-4a...
  - aero-glide 6y ago
    Is that MBS? Never seen him without the headdress
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - y04nn 6y ago
    Context of this photo: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/08/saudi-prince-meets-tim-cook-at-apple-park-to-talk-app-development-education https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/08/saudi-prince-meet...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
crossroadsguy 6y ago
I think it's a pure evil move. Seeing Cook indeed hobnobs with the likes of MBS I won't be surprised if there's more to what's visible, especially beneath this veneer of being privacy champions. Esp. considering their entire platform is closed source.
gigatexal 6y ago
Apple fanboy here and I think this is not a good look for the company. Considering their stance on being stewards of privacy and all.
- marketingPro 6y ago
  You are locked in, they genuinely don't care about your opinions. Getting government contracts and keeping a market open is vastly more important. Plus the whole privacy thing is just marketing, they have worked with the US government with PRISM. They will keep running the advertisements regardless if they sell your data to a government or corporation.
dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
You skipped a few paragraphs. Here’s the beginning: > Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information." > This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why those channels exist. So wait, the issue foremost is the doxing. Doxing is against the clearly stated rules of their platform, so they don’t want you doxing people in apps on their platform. Which is okay with me, because the mob (The “majority”, note Durov even cites a very high consensus percentage for us to feel good about it) deciding who is ok to dox and who is not ok to dox is always dangerous for humanity. Now, Belarus is without doubt (in my view) run by “violent oppressors”, and there is no rule of law by which protestors can seek redress, but the notion that it’s okay to dox people because you took a poll somewhere that included some percentage of Belarusians is downright naive and scary, and doesn’t smell much better at all than the government itself, however true it may be. That Apple steps in and micromanages at this level is the disturbing element in my opinion, because certainly they’re only doing it because they were notified by Belarusian authorities, but to me the greater issue is the mob justice, against which there is also no appeal or redress, which to me is very scary, even if in this instance it is correct.
FireBeyond 6y ago
"Do this or you're banned! But don't mention that it is us telling you to do it, or you're banned, because that might mean our PR team has to do some damage control!"

barumi 6y ago

It´s like Apple wants to enforce censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships, but doesn´t want to deal with the consequences of enforcing censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships.

ignoramous 6y ago
It hurts their PR. They can't be out there doing ad campaigns taking a dig at the Facebooks and the Googles of the world whilst overtly abiding to the whims of totalitarian regimes.
- luckylion 6y ago
  But it's Belarus, the government is highly unpopular in the West and not really popular anywhere else. And it's not like China where they'd lose a giant market if they decided to stand up to the government, Belarus has a population of under 10m with an average income of under $6k a year. It might just be about doxxing, but the PR problem remains, of course.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    I would be very surprised this being just it, the chance of them finding out about obscure chat channels in a country across the ocean without somebody from Apple having a job monitoring them full time is infinitesimal. This very much reminds me how Google disappeared websites of Russian opposition (weeks after signing some memorandum with kremlin,) and then told "maybe they need to improve their search engine friendliness?"
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Apple monitors them or actively looks for doxxing, but that somebody (potentially from the police) informed them about it, they took a look and concluded that it's against their policy. I don't know whether that's a common thing, and I expect many companies wouldn't go the Telegram route and publish the demands because they don't want to put stress on their relationship with Apple. Discord apparently has channels that are used for similar activities, but I don't know whether Apple has asked Discord to hide those channels from the app, or whether anyone complained to Apple in the first place.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        For as long as I know, it's explicitly legally forbidden for private parties in US to engage in foreign relations. So, "even" by the word of US law, Apple has no permission to engage with Belarus government.
        luckylion 6y ago
        I don't think somebody reporting content for policy review (Apple's content policy, not foreign policy) is affected by any US laws. That person wouldn't have to be an Apple customer, they wouldn't have to be a user, they wouldn't have to be outside the US. I doubt there are any laws that would forbid Apple from taking or acting on a report of content policy violations.
        baybal2 6y ago
        Now, take a deep breath, and think how realistic that prospect is.
        vmvarga 6y ago
        It probably is just about doxxing, but it still shows how scummy and so far up their own ass Apple is. Just think about the lenght of the reach - trying to regulate what content somebody on a messenger app should post, not even social media platform like twitter/facebook (do they monitor those too? Telling them which groups to have?) They feel like they're creating their own little world, their own universe. And it's not some unambiguous situation like posting nudes of your ex gfs, it's very complicated what's happening in Belarus, at the very least they shouldn't interfere. But they couldn't care less about democracies of the world, if there's a slightest chance that Apple very very remotely might burn - they're OUT. And on top of that they want you to be clueless about it.
  - wh1t3n01s3 6y ago
    the Belarus government is very popular in Russia ;-)
    - luckylion 6y ago
      With the government, certainly. Are they also popular with the people, that is, would anyone switch away from iOs because Apple stood up to Belarus?

saagarjha 6y ago

Not only are you forced to follow whatever Apple tells you to do, you’re not allowed to communicate as such because it might make Apple look bad to users who don’t know any better. It’s really a quite inconvenient situation.

boudin 6y ago
That's been a technique that apple have been using quite a bit. Forbid apps to be transparent with their customers around apple rules. This way app users are pissed at the app makers not apple.
- akudha 6y ago
  Isn't this the same tactic that govt agencies use? Apple is simply borrowing the idea
  - boudin 6y ago
    And? It's not an excuse.
    - akudha 6y ago
      I never said it is an excuse.
  - halter73 6y ago
    Are you referring to gag orders related to ongoing criminal investigations or something else?
- kossTKR 6y ago
  Can you give any examples of this happening? Not doubting at all.
  - summerlight 6y ago
    One of the most recent case: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/apple-rejects-facebook-app-that-says-apple-takes-30percent-cut.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/apple-rejects-facebook-app-t...

pamicel 6y ago

Gotta say, the 1984 Apple commercial feels more and more ironic This is worthy of the Ministry of Truth

Bluestein 6y ago
These must be the Information Purification Directives, it seems :) To wit: "Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology [...]" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I (Talk about a "walled garden" ...)

afwe 6y ago

But those notices really are irrelevant, right? I mean, there is nothing I can do to bypass them. It's bad UX, like showing a disabled button that I can't enable by any means. Having said this, you can still use Telegram Web on Safari to bypass these restrictions.

notRobot 6y ago
No, they're not irrelevant. These notices tell people why they can't access certain information. They improve the user experience, otherwise the users will not know why certain information is suddenly inaccessible to them.
ernesth 6y ago
First, I do not think they are irrelevant, but it's probably subjective. Second, them being irrelevant is certainly not a good reason to forbid those notices. Third, that they are forbidden makes them all the more relevant.
eitland 6y ago
Spoken like a problematic ux-er ;-) Visible but disabled items can be important for discoverability. Knowing when and where to apply which ux rules is probably more important than knowing all the rules. FTR: I'm happy to work with what I think are good ux-ers so they certainly do exist.
- afwe 6y ago
  Visible but disabled items are only useful if they can be enabled in a more-or-less obvious way. Showing a disabled item that you can't enable in any way is bad UX. Am I wrong?
  - grncdr 6y ago
    Yes
  - username90 6y ago
    Knowing that Apple is preventing you from accessing it gives you a way to enable it again: By pressuring Apple to stop doing these shitty things. Same thing with displaying Apples 30% app cuts, if it was clearly shown everywhere likely people would pressure Apple to reduce it which is why you aren't allowed to show it. Edit: Reading the article again, there is actually a very simple fix to view these posts: Go over to your friend with an android and access them to there, and then remember to buy android in the future to avoid censorship like this. This is surely the main reason Apple doesn't let them show this note.

echelon 6y ago

Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a computer, not some gaming console. It has to be free for freedom. You should be able to install straight off the web. And before you downvote me, please look again how much Apple gives a damn about democracy in the world. And look what it's doing because of its power. Double plus ungood. It's an American device. It should act like it!

RealStickman_ 6y ago
> It's an American device. It should act like it! I don't think what the USA is doing is something that should be followed. See anything privacy endangering in the US. That's a really random nitpick though and I get what you meant.
ketamine__ 6y ago
Tim Cook is not a good person. Source: The people he engages with as he attempts to increase Apple's market cap. https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2018/04/07/6f86bd65-aefa-4ada-a251-1905b9000a44/6f86bd65-aefa-4ada-a251-1905b9000a44.jpg https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2018/04/07/6f86bd65-aefa-4a...
- aero-glide 6y ago
  Is that MBS? Never seen him without the headdress
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- y04nn 6y ago
  Context of this photo: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/08/saudi-prince-meets-tim-cook-at-apple-park-to-talk-app-development-education https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/08/saudi-prince-meet...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

crossroadsguy 6y ago

I think it's a pure evil move. Seeing Cook indeed hobnobs with the likes of MBS I won't be surprised if there's more to what's visible, especially beneath this veneer of being privacy champions. Esp. considering their entire platform is closed source.

gigatexal 6y ago

Apple fanboy here and I think this is not a good look for the company. Considering their stance on being stewards of privacy and all.

marketingPro 6y ago
You are locked in, they genuinely don't care about your opinions. Getting government contracts and keeping a market open is vastly more important. Plus the whole privacy thing is just marketing, they have worked with the US government with PRISM. They will keep running the advertisements regardless if they sell your data to a government or corporation.

dmitryminkovsky 6y ago

You skipped a few paragraphs. Here’s the beginning: > Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information." > This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why those channels exist. So wait, the issue foremost is the doxing. Doxing is against the clearly stated rules of their platform, so they don’t want you doxing people in apps on their platform. Which is okay with me, because the mob (The “majority”, note Durov even cites a very high consensus percentage for us to feel good about it) deciding who is ok to dox and who is not ok to dox is always dangerous for humanity. Now, Belarus is without doubt (in my view) run by “violent oppressors”, and there is no rule of law by which protestors can seek redress, but the notion that it’s okay to dox people because you took a poll somewhere that included some percentage of Belarusians is downright naive and scary, and doesn’t smell much better at all than the government itself, however true it may be. That Apple steps in and micromanages at this level is the disturbing element in my opinion, because certainly they’re only doing it because they were notified by Belarusian authorities, but to me the greater issue is the mob justice, against which there is also no appeal or redress, which to me is very scary, even if in this instance it is correct.

FireBeyond 6y ago

"Do this or you're banned! But don't mention that it is us telling you to do it, or you're banned, because that might mean our PR team has to do some damage control!"