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Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/1304938616519417856 https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/13049386165

Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/1304938616519417856 https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/130493861651941... The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town. If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try to do any of the other parts (they’ll probably actually be harmful). If you’re not going to copy the central parts of something successful, don’t bother copying the other stuff. The recipe for success of Silicon Valley is pretty straightforward. It has great colleges, great weather, and weak noncompetes. So people go there to start companies. And now it has a compounding cycle of attracting capital, founders and talent (recent events aside). But a government employee from Boston can’t say that, cause they can’t do shit about it. It’s not like they’ll fix the weather or the noncompetes (too many entrenched medtech companies to change that now). So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try do any of the other parts (they’ll probably actually be harmful). If you’re not going to copy the central parts of something successful, don’t bother copying the other stuff. > The recipe for success of Silicon Valley is pretty straightforward. It has great colleges, great weather, and weak noncompetes. There are a couple of interesting things about these comments. #1, nobody knows which parts of an ensemble of practices are the central parts. It's quite true that, because of this problem, people just try to copy as much as they can. But then we lead into #2, your comments on the recipe for success. Among your central points, literally placed in the center, is "great weather". That can't be copied. You have the weather you have. What should the other 99.999% of the world do? Is there even a point in trying?
- stickfigure 6y ago
  There are lots of places with a Mediterranean climate.
  - aden1ne 6y ago
    A Mediterranean climate is actually pretty rare in the world. The only large areas with a Mediterranean climate are the actual Mediterranean, the US West Coast, and some parts of Australia. Apart from that there are only a few scattered spots with a Mediterranean climate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Mediterranean_climate_%28K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Mediterr...
    - fakedang 6y ago
      I don't think that's part of the reason either. Sure, weather might be a factor for employee comfort, but most certainly not for a startup friendly environment. Else why is Stockholm or Copenhagen a bigger startup hub than Barcelona or Rome? Why are all the French startups in Paris and not Marseille, or the German startups in Berlin and not Munich? From even a non-startup perspective: why is Milan a bigger hub for corporate than Napoli or Rome (don't know how true the last bit is, but certainly felt that way)?
      - asdff 6y ago
        There are also historical reasons. Northern italy has long been more industrialized than the south, going back centuries to before there was a modern unified Italy. Paris has over twice the population of Marseille and way more universities which feed the job pool. Scandinavian countries have stronger social safety nets that foster more growth than their comparatively lean budgedted peers in southern europe.
    - stickfigure 6y ago
      Compared to total land mass, sure. But (as that map clearly shows) most Mediterranean climate is not in California. If it's just about the climate, there are plenty of options. ...or more likely, the weather is not a critical issue.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  Firstly, I think your number is a little off. Bay Area weather isn’t that amazingly better. Maybe top 10% of cities. As to “Is there even a point to trying?” No. No in two ways, in decreasing confidence. Places that don’t have all the parts definitely shouldn’t try to copy Silicon Valley. If you can’t do things the way that they did them then... don’t try to do things the way that they did them. I don’t know how to express that without being circular. Should any city try to become the next Silicon Whatever* at all? No, probably not. That’s simply because I don’t think there’s a city government in the world capable of doing it. Maybe there would be some benefit in the attempt, but I’m guessing it would be outweighed by the cost. It’s just not the kind of things governments actually do. *btw all those names make feel a bit ill. Does no city’s Chamber of Commerce see the irony of branding themselves as an innovation hub by copying another city’s nickname? Editing in more. > #1, nobody knows which parts of an ensemble of practices are the central parts. It's quite true that, because of this problem, people just try to copy as much as they can. I don’t know. I think sometimes people know. At least try. Like maybe my description of Silicon Valley is totally wrong. But at least it’s logical and you can choose to follow it or not. And if you’re going to follow someone as a guru (like the tweet I linked to) then follow their belief on what’s central. And if you don’t agree then don’t follow them! Because you wouldn’t be following them anyway. You’d be following some hybrid half version of them that you created yourself. I think things get all fucked up when people half follow systems. It’s fine if you take a tiny cohesive piece, like folding your shirts differently cause you saw Marie Kondo do it that way. And it’s fine if you go all in on Tidying Up. But when you rip through every item you own and end up with a giant pile of non-joy in your apartment that you never actually get rid of, you’re fucked. (If anyone is getting Agile flashbacks, I’m inspiring the right vibes).
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > But then we lead into #2, your comments on the recipe for success. Among your central points, literally placed in the center, is "great weather". That can't be copied. You have the weather you have. What should the other 99.999% of the world do? Well, the weather probably is a comparatively small factor, but nonreplicable geographic factors are actually a major factor in the success of most economic hubs, including the Bay Area (aesthetically great weather is one, but a great natural port area, and proximity to abundant agriculture, are also factors.) Yeah, you can't copy some of those things. Geography matters, it always has.
  - arghwhat 6y ago
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though. Way too hot, hazardous weather, impossible to get around (crazy traffic congestions, no useful public transporation, bicycling being suicidal), have to go to Home Depot to get real Coca Cola. Overall quite "meh".
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      > no useful public transporation it's united states overall, so it doesn't really matter.
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
        Combine it with the >> crazy traffic congestion It matters. I once pulled out of the Sutter-Stockton garage and sat in traffic for a full hour without getting to the end of the block.
        sagarm 6y ago
        Why were you driving in downtown in the first place? It's one of the few parts of the city that are well served by transit.
    - jasonv 6y ago
      Silicon Valley became SV before most of that. Now it's SV despite all that.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Southern France has wonderful weather and the Mediterranean Sea. The EU should start a special economic zone for startups there (a split of later taxes going into the EU budget).
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    On the other hand it's France, and the French are notorious for not wanting to speak English, while at the same time not many people from Europe speak French. Hard to build a truly European zone that way.
    - wdb 6y ago
      I think quite a lot of people can speak French, but have a similar stance against the French people, why would we speak French if you can't bother speaking differently language like English.
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        And further compounding the issue, in a specific part of France, they will give you shit for even trying to speak French. It doesn’t matter if you have good vocabulary and decent grammar / pronunciation, they still will refuse to speak to you or worse insult you for even trying. This certainly isn’t an issue in all of France, just one specific area that I’ll avoid naming to not offend folks from there.
        hef19898 6y ago
        Having been to most corners of France so far, I cannot confirm this. I can confirm so, that French have a tendency to not like speaking English at the very beginning of a conversation. They do appreciate so, if foreigners try speaking French. Some even all of a sudden can speak English.
        HappySweeney 6y ago
        I live in a bilingual city (english / french), and the french-speakers here that vacationed in France (n=3) all say that the French laughed at them when they tried speaking.
- WanderPanda 6y ago
  I mean nobody knows which parts make the difference, but the market will tell after time. The more regions try to change things the more likely it is going to work somewhere. I think that can be great if the decision makers are held accountable / fired if it does not work. Without proper incentives / skin in the game this is just another way decision makers will (subconsciously) implement some crony-sh*t
LoSboccacc 6y ago
Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  That was in the context of the US. And Italy is a whole country, so the density is going to be different.
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    which is a fair point, but I don't see density as a key success factor in the parents comments.
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  Italy is a really interesting case for me as the birthplace of the renaissance. What happened there? And when? For an interesting deep dive into the role of Government in innovation there is a report from Price-Waterhouse Cooper[1] that I found interesting if a bit jargon laden :-). But it definitely calls out for a public/private partnership to be successful. I think governmental and banking stability has hurt Italy in this regard but I am certainly not an expert. [1] https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/technology/pdf/how-governments-foster-innovation-2010.pdf https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/technology/pdf/how-governments-fos...
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Corruption has to have an effect. In SV it's common to shout about the success of your business. It would probably be foolish to do the same in Italy.
    - LoSboccacc 6y ago
      likely, but I didn't see 'lack of corruption' in the parent post sv pillars, which is the whole point of the counterargument.
cycomanic 6y ago
If it really was great weather, great colleagues, weak nocompetes why has Australia not managed to create the same culture. AFAIK nocompetes are pretty much unenforceable in Australia, they have better weather than california and lots of people like to live there, so what is missing? Honest question.
- kamaal 6y ago
  Its not just those three. Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling. Im sure there are lots of other reasons too, any 1-1 comparison would be unfair given the differences in culture and overall direction of the societies.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling. I think the last point is the most important one. It also took a lot of government/military/intelligence funding to get the ball rolling, and a time where the government/military/intelligence wanted to fund specifically that, something you cannot simply copy. The weather, local culture etc were available before, but SV didn't become a major player before all the stars aligned just right.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  Density, first off. You’re comparing Australia to an area of like 100 square kilometers. My description of why Silicon Valley happened was also based on it being in the US. I don’t think Silicon Valley happens without the rest of the US (obviously this would be so different it’s hard to compare). I guess my point is that I was saying why the apple grew on this particular branch, and you’re asking why this other tree didn’t grow any apples at all.
- russelg 6y ago
  2 year no-compete clauses are common at Australian software companies. If they're enforceable or not I do not know, but they are in place.
doublesCs 6y ago
> Perhaps the other 90% work for the government. What a poisonous attitude.
watwut 6y ago
> The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town. That is not cognitive dissonance. They flew in trying to learn how other town achieved goal. Once they know, they are still allowed to dislike the method or part of it. But also, I don't the the non competes are the key part, because many parts of the world have weak non competes too.
- ghaff 6y ago
  CA law around non-competes is great and all but: 1. It's not like CA doesn't have NDAs, trade secrets, anti-poaching, IP restrictions, etc. 2. It's not like everyplace else in the world (or even in the US) you're an indentured servant who is never allowed to move to another company (occasional man bites dog headlines about a fast food worker notwithstanding)
mikro2nd 6y ago
>The recipe for success of Silicon Valley... You seem to have left out "Tons of government money funding early electronics and aerospace development"... a bootstrap factor that should not be forgotten.
- twic 6y ago
  "Just why is Silicon Valley so successful?" asks a VC as they fund yet another startup within an Uber ride of Sand Hills Road.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Lots of places had lots of government money funding.
ghaff 6y ago
>It has great colleges, great weather, and weak noncompetes. Massachusetts certainly can't do anything about winter although by "great weather," depending upon your preferences most of the world is pretty much screwed relative to the Bay area. But great schools relative to the Boston area? They're probably as good overall. And, while California has particularly weak enforcement of non-competes, Massachusetts recently weakened non-competes and, in any case, there's a pretty long history of people moving among tech companies in the area. And many companies in the Northeast don't have non-competes.
fnord123 6y ago
Maybe it depends on what you mean by "recipe for success of Silicon Valley" but I doubt weather has primary influence on the recipe. Sweden, South Korea, and Switzerland are considered the top 3 "innovative economies"[1] in the world and aren't particularly notable for their weather. [1] usually this means a mix of #patents filed, number of phds/100,000 and r&d expenditure/gdp. Not sure how you would rather measure the success of silicon valley to set it apart.
sunshinerag 6y ago
what about the tax regime?
edoloughlin 6y ago
So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years. ...and promptly relocate to Silicon Valley.
908B64B197 6y ago
> So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years. How is that not cargo-culting?

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try do any of the other parts (they’ll probably actually be harmful). If you’re not going to copy the central parts of something successful, don’t bother copying the other stuff. > The recipe for success of Silicon Valley is pretty straightforward. It has great colleges, great weather, and weak noncompetes. There are a couple of interesting things about these comments. #1, nobody knows which parts of an ensemble of practices are the central parts. It's quite true that, because of this problem, people just try to copy as much as they can. But then we lead into #2, your comments on the recipe for success. Among your central points, literally placed in the center, is "great weather". That can't be copied. You have the weather you have. What should the other 99.999% of the world do? Is there even a point in trying?

stickfigure 6y ago
There are lots of places with a Mediterranean climate.
- aden1ne 6y ago
  A Mediterranean climate is actually pretty rare in the world. The only large areas with a Mediterranean climate are the actual Mediterranean, the US West Coast, and some parts of Australia. Apart from that there are only a few scattered spots with a Mediterranean climate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Mediterranean_climate_%28K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Mediterr...
  - fakedang 6y ago
    I don't think that's part of the reason either. Sure, weather might be a factor for employee comfort, but most certainly not for a startup friendly environment. Else why is Stockholm or Copenhagen a bigger startup hub than Barcelona or Rome? Why are all the French startups in Paris and not Marseille, or the German startups in Berlin and not Munich? From even a non-startup perspective: why is Milan a bigger hub for corporate than Napoli or Rome (don't know how true the last bit is, but certainly felt that way)?
    - asdff 6y ago
      There are also historical reasons. Northern italy has long been more industrialized than the south, going back centuries to before there was a modern unified Italy. Paris has over twice the population of Marseille and way more universities which feed the job pool. Scandinavian countries have stronger social safety nets that foster more growth than their comparatively lean budgedted peers in southern europe.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    Compared to total land mass, sure. But (as that map clearly shows) most Mediterranean climate is not in California. If it's just about the climate, there are plenty of options. ...or more likely, the weather is not a critical issue.
travisjungroth 6y ago
Firstly, I think your number is a little off. Bay Area weather isn’t that amazingly better. Maybe top 10% of cities. As to “Is there even a point to trying?” No. No in two ways, in decreasing confidence. Places that don’t have all the parts definitely shouldn’t try to copy Silicon Valley. If you can’t do things the way that they did them then... don’t try to do things the way that they did them. I don’t know how to express that without being circular. Should any city try to become the next Silicon Whatever* at all? No, probably not. That’s simply because I don’t think there’s a city government in the world capable of doing it. Maybe there would be some benefit in the attempt, but I’m guessing it would be outweighed by the cost. It’s just not the kind of things governments actually do. *btw all those names make feel a bit ill. Does no city’s Chamber of Commerce see the irony of branding themselves as an innovation hub by copying another city’s nickname? Editing in more. > #1, nobody knows which parts of an ensemble of practices are the central parts. It's quite true that, because of this problem, people just try to copy as much as they can. I don’t know. I think sometimes people know. At least try. Like maybe my description of Silicon Valley is totally wrong. But at least it’s logical and you can choose to follow it or not. And if you’re going to follow someone as a guru (like the tweet I linked to) then follow their belief on what’s central. And if you don’t agree then don’t follow them! Because you wouldn’t be following them anyway. You’d be following some hybrid half version of them that you created yourself. I think things get all fucked up when people half follow systems. It’s fine if you take a tiny cohesive piece, like folding your shirts differently cause you saw Marie Kondo do it that way. And it’s fine if you go all in on Tidying Up. But when you rip through every item you own and end up with a giant pile of non-joy in your apartment that you never actually get rid of, you’re fucked. (If anyone is getting Agile flashbacks, I’m inspiring the right vibes).
dragonwriter 6y ago
> But then we lead into #2, your comments on the recipe for success. Among your central points, literally placed in the center, is "great weather". That can't be copied. You have the weather you have. What should the other 99.999% of the world do? Well, the weather probably is a comparatively small factor, but nonreplicable geographic factors are actually a major factor in the success of most economic hubs, including the Bay Area (aesthetically great weather is one, but a great natural port area, and proximity to abundant agriculture, are also factors.) Yeah, you can't copy some of those things. Geography matters, it always has.
- arghwhat 6y ago
  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though. Way too hot, hazardous weather, impossible to get around (crazy traffic congestions, no useful public transporation, bicycling being suicidal), have to go to Home Depot to get real Coca Cola. Overall quite "meh".
  - kyawzazaw 6y ago
    > no useful public transporation it's united states overall, so it doesn't really matter.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      Combine it with the >> crazy traffic congestion It matters. I once pulled out of the Sutter-Stockton garage and sat in traffic for a full hour without getting to the end of the block.
      - sagarm 6y ago
        Why were you driving in downtown in the first place? It's one of the few parts of the city that are well served by transit.
  - jasonv 6y ago
    Silicon Valley became SV before most of that. Now it's SV despite all that.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
Southern France has wonderful weather and the Mediterranean Sea. The EU should start a special economic zone for startups there (a split of later taxes going into the EU budget).
- mschuster91 6y ago
  On the other hand it's France, and the French are notorious for not wanting to speak English, while at the same time not many people from Europe speak French. Hard to build a truly European zone that way.
  - wdb 6y ago
    I think quite a lot of people can speak French, but have a similar stance against the French people, why would we speak French if you can't bother speaking differently language like English.
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      And further compounding the issue, in a specific part of France, they will give you shit for even trying to speak French. It doesn’t matter if you have good vocabulary and decent grammar / pronunciation, they still will refuse to speak to you or worse insult you for even trying. This certainly isn’t an issue in all of France, just one specific area that I’ll avoid naming to not offend folks from there.
      - hef19898 6y ago
        Having been to most corners of France so far, I cannot confirm this. I can confirm so, that French have a tendency to not like speaking English at the very beginning of a conversation. They do appreciate so, if foreigners try speaking French. Some even all of a sudden can speak English.
        HappySweeney 6y ago
        I live in a bilingual city (english / french), and the french-speakers here that vacationed in France (n=3) all say that the French laughed at them when they tried speaking.
WanderPanda 6y ago
I mean nobody knows which parts make the difference, but the market will tell after time. The more regions try to change things the more likely it is going to work somewhere. I think that can be great if the decision makers are held accountable / fired if it does not work. Without proper incentives / skin in the game this is just another way decision makers will (subconsciously) implement some crony-sh*t

LoSboccacc 6y ago

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

travisjungroth 6y ago
That was in the context of the US. And Italy is a whole country, so the density is going to be different.
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  which is a fair point, but I don't see density as a key success factor in the parents comments.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
Italy is a really interesting case for me as the birthplace of the renaissance. What happened there? And when? For an interesting deep dive into the role of Government in innovation there is a report from Price-Waterhouse Cooper[1] that I found interesting if a bit jargon laden :-). But it definitely calls out for a public/private partnership to be successful. I think governmental and banking stability has hurt Italy in this regard but I am certainly not an expert. [1] https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/technology/pdf/how-governments-foster-innovation-2010.pdf https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/technology/pdf/how-governments-fos...
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Corruption has to have an effect. In SV it's common to shout about the success of your business. It would probably be foolish to do the same in Italy.
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    likely, but I didn't see 'lack of corruption' in the parent post sv pillars, which is the whole point of the counterargument.

cycomanic 6y ago

If it really was great weather, great colleagues, weak nocompetes why has Australia not managed to create the same culture. AFAIK nocompetes are pretty much unenforceable in Australia, they have better weather than california and lots of people like to live there, so what is missing? Honest question.

kamaal 6y ago
Its not just those three. Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling. Im sure there are lots of other reasons too, any 1-1 comparison would be unfair given the differences in culture and overall direction of the societies.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling. I think the last point is the most important one. It also took a lot of government/military/intelligence funding to get the ball rolling, and a time where the government/military/intelligence wanted to fund specifically that, something you cannot simply copy. The weather, local culture etc were available before, but SV didn't become a major player before all the stars aligned just right.
travisjungroth 6y ago
Density, first off. You’re comparing Australia to an area of like 100 square kilometers. My description of why Silicon Valley happened was also based on it being in the US. I don’t think Silicon Valley happens without the rest of the US (obviously this would be so different it’s hard to compare). I guess my point is that I was saying why the apple grew on this particular branch, and you’re asking why this other tree didn’t grow any apples at all.
russelg 6y ago
2 year no-compete clauses are common at Australian software companies. If they're enforceable or not I do not know, but they are in place.

doublesCs 6y ago

> Perhaps the other 90% work for the government. What a poisonous attitude.

watwut 6y ago

> The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town. That is not cognitive dissonance. They flew in trying to learn how other town achieved goal. Once they know, they are still allowed to dislike the method or part of it. But also, I don't the the non competes are the key part, because many parts of the world have weak non competes too.

ghaff 6y ago
CA law around non-competes is great and all but: 1. It's not like CA doesn't have NDAs, trade secrets, anti-poaching, IP restrictions, etc. 2. It's not like everyplace else in the world (or even in the US) you're an indentured servant who is never allowed to move to another company (occasional man bites dog headlines about a fast food worker notwithstanding)

mikro2nd 6y ago

>The recipe for success of Silicon Valley... You seem to have left out "Tons of government money funding early electronics and aerospace development"... a bootstrap factor that should not be forgotten.

twic 6y ago
"Just why is Silicon Valley so successful?" asks a VC as they fund yet another startup within an Uber ride of Sand Hills Road.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Lots of places had lots of government money funding.

ghaff 6y ago

>It has great colleges, great weather, and weak noncompetes. Massachusetts certainly can't do anything about winter although by "great weather," depending upon your preferences most of the world is pretty much screwed relative to the Bay area. But great schools relative to the Boston area? They're probably as good overall. And, while California has particularly weak enforcement of non-competes, Massachusetts recently weakened non-competes and, in any case, there's a pretty long history of people moving among tech companies in the area. And many companies in the Northeast don't have non-competes.

fnord123 6y ago

Maybe it depends on what you mean by "recipe for success of Silicon Valley" but I doubt weather has primary influence on the recipe. Sweden, South Korea, and Switzerland are considered the top 3 "innovative economies"[1] in the world and aren't particularly notable for their weather. [1] usually this means a mix of #patents filed, number of phds/100,000 and r&d expenditure/gdp. Not sure how you would rather measure the success of silicon valley to set it apart.

sunshinerag 6y ago

what about the tax regime?

edoloughlin 6y ago

So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years. ...and promptly relocate to Silicon Valley.

908B64B197 6y ago

> So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years. How is that not cargo-culting?