5 ms·

It's honestly such a complete joke it's not even funny anymore. My USB-C MacBook Pro with it's pathetic two ports that my work bought for me is now old enough t

It's honestly such a complete joke it's not even funny anymore. My USB-C MacBook Pro with it's pathetic two ports that my work bought for me is now old enough that the battery is starting to fail and we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist. I'm starting to be convinced the port is fundamentally flawed, dongles with multiple ports are never reliable enough to keep a drive mounted for any heavy work, HDMI glitches out. Doesn't matter what dongle I try they all have some sort of thing wrong with them. The only dongle that works reliably enough to do light video editing with a drive is the $20 Apple single USB-C to A adapter, which converts one of your single USB-C ports to a single USB-A port. The fact that Apple hasn't released a usb-c hub speaks volumes, lets be honest they could charge $500 for it and people would still defend and buy it. But I feel the reason they haven't it because the technology fundamentally doesn't deliver on this promise and it would be just as unreliable as the 3rd party ones.

josho 6y ago
A good (read expensive) dongle will work fine. I have one that reliably powers 2 monitors (a 5k and a 4k), 1gb network and powers my macbook. I think the real problem is we get a lot of cheap products coming from China with very little quality control. QC is poor because they have no incentive to build in quality. E.g. you likely don't realize how flaky the dongle is until after the 30 day return policy, the branding on many of these plugs is minimal so you don't even know which company to avoid for your next purchase.
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  +1 to this. I had bought a "top reviewed" HDMI / USBC cable on Amazon. It seemed to have issues overheating and dying. Bought the Insignia version of the same from BestBuy and it works like a champ (even when it's 100f outside and my house has no AC). It's not about where you buy it, but the quality matters. It was an eye opening experience when I left the 1 star review, the vendor keeps pinging me with bribe offers to take it down. So when you see even a little bump of 1 star reviews, you have to know that those are the people who have some integrity and there likely is a proportion missing.
- tristor 6y ago
  This is exactly it. If you want anything that actually works and is reliable, you pretty much cannot buy it on Amazon, you need to buy it directly from the company that makes it. I have a Henge Dock for my older 13" MBP and it's worked perfectly for years over USB-C, and on my newer Touchbar 13" I havea a 2-port USB-C microdock from HyperDrive. I use Anker PD/IQ3 chargers and cables, and I have no issues whatsoever. There are companies making good products, but you have to be willing to pay for them and you have to buy them directly from that company usually. Even if you find that product on Amazon, due to SKU commingling you can assume most of the inventory is counterfeit. Too many people go to Amazon, type some generic keywords in, and pick "Amazon's Choice", which is some "brand" off AliExpress with no QC. It's not just electronics, this is true for things like car parts and tools as well. It's somewhat shocking how much Chinesium-grade products have infected every aspect of American life due to the ubiquity of people buying through Amazon and Amazon's complete lack of inventory QC. Friends are amazed that so much of my stuff works, and it seems the only way people find out about good stuff now is via word of mouth because you can't trust online review sites which are mostly just reformatting Amazon star rankings with affiliate links. The state of ecommerce in 2020 is appalling.
  - jasonlotito 6y ago
    > If you want anything that actually works and is reliable, you pretty much cannot buy it on Amazon, you need to buy it directly from the company that makes it. I remember several years ago purchasing the $70 digital adapter from Apple. It's the one with 3 ports and merges into one. I forget which version it was. It was horrible. The HDMI port wouldn't work. I had purchased two. They were absolute trash. That's $140. I replaced them with two Amazon versions for half the cost. They worked. It was only after I purchased that I noticed that the reviews on Apple's own website showed it rated under 2-stars, with lots of angry reviews from people having the same exact problem. I will say Belkin's USB-C dock works amazingly well. I love it.
    - dewey 6y ago
      > I replaced them with two Amazon versions for half the cost. They worked. The point is that you don't know what you get on Amazon these days. It could be that you get a working version and I get a counterfeit version even though we both buy the same article on Amazon as they are just all in the same storage box.
- crote 6y ago
  I own a 4k @ 60Hz monitor. If I were to buy a laptop, I'd like to connect it and a bunch of USB devices via a single USB C cable. Easy, right? Except that the monitor only supports DisplayPort 1.2. 4k60 requires a bandwidth of 12.54 Gbit/s. DP 1.2 consists of four data lanes, each providing 4.32 GBit/s, so my monitor requires four full lanes. DP 1.3 and up provide at least 7.48 Gbit/s, so 4k60 would only require two lanes for that. USB C consists of 4 data lanes. When using the DisplayPort alternate mode, it can assign either 1, 2, or 4 data lanes to DP. The other lanes can be used for USB. In addition to that, it also offers a single USB 2.0 lane. If a dock - even an expensive one - supports a resolution of 4k60 via DP and provides USB 3 ports, will it actually work for me? It could use DP 1.2 by assigning four data links to DP , but that means USB gets downgraded to 2.0 and I don't think any hub actually supports this. It could use DP 1.3+ and assign two data links to DP and two to USB, but if it outputs that same DP signal, it won't provide the bandwidth my monitor needs so it must actively convert two-link DP 1.3 to four-link DP 1.2. Again, I don't think any hub actually supports this. The hardware I need can definitely exist. It's a pretty normal thing to ask for. A lot of docks, even the expensive ones, will claim to support what I need, but as far as I can tell not a single dock actually can. Because USB C has so many protocol options, figuring out what is supported has become nearly impossible.
  - floatboth 6y ago
    Yep, docks are known not to request 4 lanes for DP even when there's only a display plugged in. In fact even dongles that don't have anything other than a display output on them sometimes only ever request 2 lanes, sadly.
    - crote 6y ago
      You can't really blame them, though. The vast, vast majority of users will be absolutely fine with 2 lanes, especially with DP 1.3+. USB C is mainly used on laptops, and your office projector just isn't going to support 8K120 with HDR. Why spent the extra money if virtually nobody needs it?
      - floatboth 6y ago
- hinkley 6y ago
  Or spring for a monitor with thunderbolt on it, and ditch the dongle or move it to a permanent location behind the monitor. I am currently waiting for thunderbolt 4 support to upgrade my other monitor, so can have a hub in there somewhere instead of some devices plugged into each monitor.
  - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    > Or spring for a monitor with thunderbolt on it I mean if you can suggest one that actually does that I’ll get right on pestering my work for one. But considering the fact they bought the basically useless base model MacBook “pro” I don’t fancy my chances.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      It appears that in the last 6 months the average price of TB3 displays has gone up (I'm seeing a lot of 5k models on offer). My selection is the same price, and instead of being near the top of the pack, it's near the bottom. Might have something to do with Apple's re-entry into the market at such a high price point.
- coryfklein 6y ago
  But oh god why do we even need the dongle! What backwards world is 2020 where you can't plug a monitor into your computer?! At least, not any actual real monitor I have at home or have seen in the office.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  Which dongle is this that works and can it keep a drive mounted while video editing? As I said don’t you think it’s strange that if this product supposedly works perfectly then why isn’t Apple shipping one with a premium price tag.
  - SpelingBeeChamp 6y ago
    Are you using drives that have their own power source? I found that (a) using the “right” cable (determined through experimentation), and (b) only using mains-powered external hard drives made a big difference.
- ryanianian 6y ago
  Don't cheap out on a USB-C hub: get a Thunderbolt 3 hub. I have a few CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 hubs. They're great. 4k monitor, gigabit ethernet, a number of USB-3 devices, and power-delivery for my Macbook. They are decidedly not cheap, but I wasted a lot of money on plain USB-C hubs (not Thuderbolt 3 which uses the same port but is not the same) that are now effectively trash. I've got one at all of the "workstations" in the house. Tired of working in the bedroom? Unplug one cable and move to the office that has an identical setup and everything works and is easy.
  - justincormack 6y ago
    Yeah I have one but thinking of getting an AMD Desktop and that won't have thunderbolt, although maybe I can buy a PCI card?
macspoofing 6y ago
>and we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist. I have a Dell XPS with a dock. There's only one USB-C connection between my laptop and the dock which provides power, screen and usb ports. It's pretty nice to come into the office and plug only one cable in (back in the pre-pandemic days)
- robotnikman 6y ago
  From my experience, Dell and HP docks have worked for me and a few different windows laptops, so they seem the best choice if you use windows. Not sure about whats best for Mac though, and Linux... I love linux systems but my experience with linux laptops has not been the best.
IshKebab 6y ago
> we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist It does. I have a Macbook Pro that connects to two screens, a keyboard, mouse and ethernet via a single USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 cable. The fact that not all USB-C cables are Thunderbolt 3 cables is annoying, but at least they label them pretty clearly.
snuxoll 6y ago
I bought a Dell UltraSharp U2719D explicitly for use with my work-issued 2019 MBP and it’s worked a treat. Plug one cable in, the display lights up, laptop starts charging, USB devices attached to the monitor connect, just like that. Since the only place I “dock up” is at home it’s been a perfect solution. This right here is where USB-C should be heading, not annoying docks you need to lug around.
efxhoy 6y ago
I have used three USB-C displays extensively: a Dell U3219Q, an LG 27ud88 and an LG 32ud89. The 32" Dell and 27" LG work flawlessly: usb ethernet dongle, usb ssd drives, USB audio interface, mouse and keyboard work great. They don't even crap out on sleep/suspend. My LG 32UD89 has been rubbish though, it needs to be powered on before the macbook wakes up or it needs a hard power cycle to detect USB-C input. They are all very pricey though.
jayd16 6y ago
Its not USB-C so much as those MBP ports are a bit buggy. Depending on the model, you might have better success if you try the port that's on the other side of the laptop.
- pedro_hab 6y ago
  I agree, I have an Apple dongle and it glitches too, albeit less often than the non Apple dongles. Sometimes even my Apple keyboard won't work connected to the dongle, I have to put in and out a few times for it to work. Things that never happened with old USB cables.
japhyr 6y ago
I tried some cheaper, smaller hubs for my ~2018 macbook pro 13", and nothing worked well. They either didn't work with an external monitor, or they did but they interfered with wifi. I finally bought a CalDigit TS3 Plus. It was way more than I had hoped to have to spend on a hub, but it has worked without issue for over a year now. https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/ https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/
- joshstrange 6y ago
  +1 for the TS3 Plus. I spent A LOT of time looking around at the dock/hub state of affairs when I got my 2018 MBP 15" because I wanted to drive 3-4 external monitors and wanted as few cables as possible. The CalDigit drives my 2 2K monitors (but can drive higher, at least 4K IIRC) via DisplayPort and then I plug in 1-2 other Thunderbolt 3 -> DisplayPort (or HDMI for my older monitor). From the hub (read: 1 TB3 cable plugged into my MBP) I get: * Gigabit ethernet * PD to my laptop * 1 DisplayPort (which I use to drive 1 monitor) * Digital Optical (I don't use it) * 1 TB3 port (which I use to drive the other monitor with a TB3->DP cable) * 1 USB-C 10Gbps port * 1 USB-C 5Gbps port * 5 USB3 5Gbps ports (old square style) * SD card reader * Headphones/Mic output/input It is wonderful to plug in 1 cable and get my power for my laptop, internet, monitors, webcam, wired mouse/keyboard, Lightning cable for iOS development, Micro-usb for Android development, external SSD for CCC backups, and label printer (and probably something else I'm forgetting). I just want to reiterate, all of that from ONE cable. It's pretty amazing. This is, by far, the best setup I've ever had and I have never had a problem with it in the 2+ years that I've been using it. I picked mine up for $299.99 and it's worth every penny. I see it's $250 on Amazon right now and if this thing died today I would (after a tiny bit of research) re-buy it immediately. Here is the product page: https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/ https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/
dizzystar 6y ago
Have you tried powered adapters? That's what I'm using and I've had zero problems. This includes adding things that wouldn't work with a passive adapter.
cwhiz 6y ago
My wife and I have both been using the "CalDigit TS3 Plus" nearly every single day since December 2018. 3-4 different laptops, 2-3 monitors each, endless accessories and drives, etc. Zero issues. I keep this hub[0] in my laptop bag for traveling and I haven't had any issues with it in over two years, either. I've plug in monitors, daisy chained USB-C, plugged in my iPad as a second monitor, and projected over HDMI numerous times. And I have this[1] monitor for traveling. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DRW84M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DRW84M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... [1]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y8SSQG5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y8SSQG5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

josho 6y ago

A good (read expensive) dongle will work fine. I have one that reliably powers 2 monitors (a 5k and a 4k), 1gb network and powers my macbook. I think the real problem is we get a lot of cheap products coming from China with very little quality control. QC is poor because they have no incentive to build in quality. E.g. you likely don't realize how flaky the dongle is until after the 30 day return policy, the branding on many of these plugs is minimal so you don't even know which company to avoid for your next purchase.

maerF0x0 6y ago
+1 to this. I had bought a "top reviewed" HDMI / USBC cable on Amazon. It seemed to have issues overheating and dying. Bought the Insignia version of the same from BestBuy and it works like a champ (even when it's 100f outside and my house has no AC). It's not about where you buy it, but the quality matters. It was an eye opening experience when I left the 1 star review, the vendor keeps pinging me with bribe offers to take it down. So when you see even a little bump of 1 star reviews, you have to know that those are the people who have some integrity and there likely is a proportion missing.
tristor 6y ago
This is exactly it. If you want anything that actually works and is reliable, you pretty much cannot buy it on Amazon, you need to buy it directly from the company that makes it. I have a Henge Dock for my older 13" MBP and it's worked perfectly for years over USB-C, and on my newer Touchbar 13" I havea a 2-port USB-C microdock from HyperDrive. I use Anker PD/IQ3 chargers and cables, and I have no issues whatsoever. There are companies making good products, but you have to be willing to pay for them and you have to buy them directly from that company usually. Even if you find that product on Amazon, due to SKU commingling you can assume most of the inventory is counterfeit. Too many people go to Amazon, type some generic keywords in, and pick "Amazon's Choice", which is some "brand" off AliExpress with no QC. It's not just electronics, this is true for things like car parts and tools as well. It's somewhat shocking how much Chinesium-grade products have infected every aspect of American life due to the ubiquity of people buying through Amazon and Amazon's complete lack of inventory QC. Friends are amazed that so much of my stuff works, and it seems the only way people find out about good stuff now is via word of mouth because you can't trust online review sites which are mostly just reformatting Amazon star rankings with affiliate links. The state of ecommerce in 2020 is appalling.
- jasonlotito 6y ago
  > If you want anything that actually works and is reliable, you pretty much cannot buy it on Amazon, you need to buy it directly from the company that makes it. I remember several years ago purchasing the $70 digital adapter from Apple. It's the one with 3 ports and merges into one. I forget which version it was. It was horrible. The HDMI port wouldn't work. I had purchased two. They were absolute trash. That's $140. I replaced them with two Amazon versions for half the cost. They worked. It was only after I purchased that I noticed that the reviews on Apple's own website showed it rated under 2-stars, with lots of angry reviews from people having the same exact problem. I will say Belkin's USB-C dock works amazingly well. I love it.
  - dewey 6y ago
    > I replaced them with two Amazon versions for half the cost. They worked. The point is that you don't know what you get on Amazon these days. It could be that you get a working version and I get a counterfeit version even though we both buy the same article on Amazon as they are just all in the same storage box.
crote 6y ago
I own a 4k @ 60Hz monitor. If I were to buy a laptop, I'd like to connect it and a bunch of USB devices via a single USB C cable. Easy, right? Except that the monitor only supports DisplayPort 1.2. 4k60 requires a bandwidth of 12.54 Gbit/s. DP 1.2 consists of four data lanes, each providing 4.32 GBit/s, so my monitor requires four full lanes. DP 1.3 and up provide at least 7.48 Gbit/s, so 4k60 would only require two lanes for that. USB C consists of 4 data lanes. When using the DisplayPort alternate mode, it can assign either 1, 2, or 4 data lanes to DP. The other lanes can be used for USB. In addition to that, it also offers a single USB 2.0 lane. If a dock - even an expensive one - supports a resolution of 4k60 via DP and provides USB 3 ports, will it actually work for me? It could use DP 1.2 by assigning four data links to DP , but that means USB gets downgraded to 2.0 and I don't think any hub actually supports this. It could use DP 1.3+ and assign two data links to DP and two to USB, but if it outputs that same DP signal, it won't provide the bandwidth my monitor needs so it must actively convert two-link DP 1.3 to four-link DP 1.2. Again, I don't think any hub actually supports this. The hardware I need can definitely exist. It's a pretty normal thing to ask for. A lot of docks, even the expensive ones, will claim to support what I need, but as far as I can tell not a single dock actually can. Because USB C has so many protocol options, figuring out what is supported has become nearly impossible.
- floatboth 6y ago
  Yep, docks are known not to request 4 lanes for DP even when there's only a display plugged in. In fact even dongles that don't have anything other than a display output on them sometimes only ever request 2 lanes, sadly.
  - crote 6y ago
    You can't really blame them, though. The vast, vast majority of users will be absolutely fine with 2 lanes, especially with DP 1.3+. USB C is mainly used on laptops, and your office projector just isn't going to support 8K120 with HDR. Why spent the extra money if virtually nobody needs it?
    - floatboth 6y ago
hinkley 6y ago
Or spring for a monitor with thunderbolt on it, and ditch the dongle or move it to a permanent location behind the monitor. I am currently waiting for thunderbolt 4 support to upgrade my other monitor, so can have a hub in there somewhere instead of some devices plugged into each monitor.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  > Or spring for a monitor with thunderbolt on it I mean if you can suggest one that actually does that I’ll get right on pestering my work for one. But considering the fact they bought the basically useless base model MacBook “pro” I don’t fancy my chances.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    It appears that in the last 6 months the average price of TB3 displays has gone up (I'm seeing a lot of 5k models on offer). My selection is the same price, and instead of being near the top of the pack, it's near the bottom. Might have something to do with Apple's re-entry into the market at such a high price point.
coryfklein 6y ago
But oh god why do we even need the dongle! What backwards world is 2020 where you can't plug a monitor into your computer?! At least, not any actual real monitor I have at home or have seen in the office.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Which dongle is this that works and can it keep a drive mounted while video editing? As I said don’t you think it’s strange that if this product supposedly works perfectly then why isn’t Apple shipping one with a premium price tag.
- SpelingBeeChamp 6y ago
  Are you using drives that have their own power source? I found that (a) using the “right” cable (determined through experimentation), and (b) only using mains-powered external hard drives made a big difference.
ryanianian 6y ago
Don't cheap out on a USB-C hub: get a Thunderbolt 3 hub. I have a few CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 hubs. They're great. 4k monitor, gigabit ethernet, a number of USB-3 devices, and power-delivery for my Macbook. They are decidedly not cheap, but I wasted a lot of money on plain USB-C hubs (not Thuderbolt 3 which uses the same port but is not the same) that are now effectively trash. I've got one at all of the "workstations" in the house. Tired of working in the bedroom? Unplug one cable and move to the office that has an identical setup and everything works and is easy.
- justincormack 6y ago
  Yeah I have one but thinking of getting an AMD Desktop and that won't have thunderbolt, although maybe I can buy a PCI card?

macspoofing 6y ago

>and we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist. I have a Dell XPS with a dock. There's only one USB-C connection between my laptop and the dock which provides power, screen and usb ports. It's pretty nice to come into the office and plug only one cable in (back in the pre-pandemic days)

robotnikman 6y ago
From my experience, Dell and HP docks have worked for me and a few different windows laptops, so they seem the best choice if you use windows. Not sure about whats best for Mac though, and Linux... I love linux systems but my experience with linux laptops has not been the best.

IshKebab 6y ago

> we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist It does. I have a Macbook Pro that connects to two screens, a keyboard, mouse and ethernet via a single USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 cable. The fact that not all USB-C cables are Thunderbolt 3 cables is annoying, but at least they label them pretty clearly.

snuxoll 6y ago

I bought a Dell UltraSharp U2719D explicitly for use with my work-issued 2019 MBP and it’s worked a treat. Plug one cable in, the display lights up, laptop starts charging, USB devices attached to the monitor connect, just like that. Since the only place I “dock up” is at home it’s been a perfect solution. This right here is where USB-C should be heading, not annoying docks you need to lug around.

efxhoy 6y ago

I have used three USB-C displays extensively: a Dell U3219Q, an LG 27ud88 and an LG 32ud89. The 32" Dell and 27" LG work flawlessly: usb ethernet dongle, usb ssd drives, USB audio interface, mouse and keyboard work great. They don't even crap out on sleep/suspend. My LG 32UD89 has been rubbish though, it needs to be powered on before the macbook wakes up or it needs a hard power cycle to detect USB-C input. They are all very pricey though.

jayd16 6y ago

Its not USB-C so much as those MBP ports are a bit buggy. Depending on the model, you might have better success if you try the port that's on the other side of the laptop.

pedro_hab 6y ago
I agree, I have an Apple dongle and it glitches too, albeit less often than the non Apple dongles. Sometimes even my Apple keyboard won't work connected to the dongle, I have to put in and out a few times for it to work. Things that never happened with old USB cables.

japhyr 6y ago

I tried some cheaper, smaller hubs for my ~2018 macbook pro 13", and nothing worked well. They either didn't work with an external monitor, or they did but they interfered with wifi. I finally bought a CalDigit TS3 Plus. It was way more than I had hoped to have to spend on a hub, but it has worked without issue for over a year now. https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/ https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/

joshstrange 6y ago
+1 for the TS3 Plus. I spent A LOT of time looking around at the dock/hub state of affairs when I got my 2018 MBP 15" because I wanted to drive 3-4 external monitors and wanted as few cables as possible. The CalDigit drives my 2 2K monitors (but can drive higher, at least 4K IIRC) via DisplayPort and then I plug in 1-2 other Thunderbolt 3 -> DisplayPort (or HDMI for my older monitor). From the hub (read: 1 TB3 cable plugged into my MBP) I get: * Gigabit ethernet * PD to my laptop * 1 DisplayPort (which I use to drive 1 monitor) * Digital Optical (I don't use it) * 1 TB3 port (which I use to drive the other monitor with a TB3->DP cable) * 1 USB-C 10Gbps port * 1 USB-C 5Gbps port * 5 USB3 5Gbps ports (old square style) * SD card reader * Headphones/Mic output/input It is wonderful to plug in 1 cable and get my power for my laptop, internet, monitors, webcam, wired mouse/keyboard, Lightning cable for iOS development, Micro-usb for Android development, external SSD for CCC backups, and label printer (and probably something else I'm forgetting). I just want to reiterate, all of that from ONE cable. It's pretty amazing. This is, by far, the best setup I've ever had and I have never had a problem with it in the 2+ years that I've been using it. I picked mine up for $299.99 and it's worth every penny. I see it's $250 on Amazon right now and if this thing died today I would (after a tiny bit of research) re-buy it immediately. Here is the product page: https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/ https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/

dizzystar 6y ago

Have you tried powered adapters? That's what I'm using and I've had zero problems. This includes adding things that wouldn't work with a passive adapter.

cwhiz 6y ago

My wife and I have both been using the "CalDigit TS3 Plus" nearly every single day since December 2018. 3-4 different laptops, 2-3 monitors each, endless accessories and drives, etc. Zero issues. I keep this hub[0] in my laptop bag for traveling and I haven't had any issues with it in over two years, either. I've plug in monitors, daisy chained USB-C, plugged in my iPad as a second monitor, and projected over HDMI numerous times. And I have this[1] monitor for traveling. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DRW84M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DRW84M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... [1]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y8SSQG5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y8SSQG5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...