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School isn't just about education. It's also a social service. School gets children out of the home, in some cases dangerous homes. It provides supervision for

School isn't just about education. It's also a social service. School gets children out of the home, in some cases dangerous homes. It provides supervision for children whose parents would not be capable or willing of doing so -- rich kids get nannies, poor kids get left alone all day. It provides opportunities for socialization and puts kids in contact with adults who can serve as role models and alert authorities in cases of abuse. The loss of these important social services matters a lot more than letting kids slip behind in math class by a year.

k__ 6y ago
This. I still can not understand how US citizens see home schooling as a good thing.
- rllearneratwork 6y ago
  because a lot of public schools are horrible. All you need to know about my neighbourhood's elementary school (Bay Area, 20 min by bicycle from Apple's new campus) is that it has metal detector on entrance. Why? Gang activity. In freaking elementary school. School rating is 4/10 if you are curious.
  - ponker 6y ago
    And a 3br house there is probably $1.4 million.
    - rllearneratwork 6y ago
      I'll just say that I paid $14,000 in property taxes alone last year
      - ponker 6y ago
        Lol Right there with ya buddy.
  - zo1 6y ago
    Can't they just suspend and subsequently expel all the students involved in gang activity and gang culture? What is the problem preventing people from fixing gang activity in elementary schools such as that one?
    - imtringued 6y ago
      That would just institutionalize gang culture. Do you really think gangs really care about education? They care more about having active and indoctrinated members. You can be more active and can be easily manipulated if you don't go to school.
- twblalock 6y ago
  Home schooling works pretty well for affluent families who can afford to have one parent not working, or hire tutors. But that is not most families.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - watwut 6y ago
    I love my children, but I dont want to stay at home homeschooling them. I really dont, I am very sure I would be quite unhappy with that. And I am very sure about that, because I did stayed home for some time why they were small and it was most depressive period of my life. It is not just about money. Majority of guys here talking about home school as being money issue would not volunteered to leave their job to be stay at home parent long term. They just want somebody else to do it.
- thepoordontvote 6y ago
  Very often homeschool families collaborate to provide social activities. Or they put their kids in community sports programs or other group activities. Homeshooling doesn't mean the kids never leave the house.
  - dudul 6y ago
    So true. I would even add that these social activities include kids of wide age ranges which is a much better way to prepare children to real life. Life is not composed of groups of people of similar ages.
  - surge 6y ago
    Not to mention co-ops, flexibility (a parent is traveling some where for business, etc, take the kid and use it as a teaching opportunity, or its a nice day, nature walk this afternoon). The amazing part is how much of a child (and the teacher's time) is wasted, especially as class sizes grow and resources are strained (https://greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i-have-to-quit-teaching-and-no/article_b42f4ffe-8d20-5956-8375-e41a2dc088ec.html https://greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i...). Home schooling usually takes half the day to get through all the required curriculum, because of all the time saved not getting 30 students to be quiet, lack of interruptions, etc. So little is getting done now in schools kids are coming home with hours of homework. Not good at explaining a subject, or the kid is having trouble groking it from the material, pull up a video on Khan Academy, or Kurzgesagt, or even a presentation by an Ivy League professor (like CS50) or someone who is foremost in the field. Have a fellow homeschool parent whose an expert in a field, let them teach help. Want to teach your kid financial planning, investing, and how to do taxes, you can. One style or mode of learning isn't working, try another like Montessori, direct instruction, don't need to run it through an administration, school board, and state officials. In a school, few if any breaks are given with no concern for attention spans, or mental burnout, you have to DO THIS THING AT THIS TIME. If the kid wants to do his lesson in a fun way, like dress up as Batman, he can, as long as they're doing their lessons, etc. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/12/new-research-finds-that-kids-aged-4-6-perform-better-during-boring-tasks-when-dressed-as-batman https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/12/new-research-finds-th... Are their parents who half ass it and their kid barely learns anything sure, but compared to the literacy rates most schools are producing they don't get to say much. https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-numbers-infographic https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-number...
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  It usually happens in families with one stay-at-home parent. It turns out all RRR (reading/'riting/'rithmetics) and sciences can be squeezed into one or two days of intensive learning. Having five free days a week is pretty awesome.
  - Hayvok 6y ago
    My wife was homeschooled, I went to public school. She decided to home school our three kids. I was skeptical at first. I was absolutely shocked at how quickly they cover all their subjects, homework, etc. every week. My kids get 10x the amount of play time I got at their age. It's great. Makes me regret all those years I spent in public school.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  I was homeschooled until grade 8. You get to spend a lot more time exploring your interests as a kid that way. I have absolutely no regrets about it.
  - pfarnsworth 6y ago
    Did you find it hard adjusting to grade 8?
- austhrow743 6y ago
  Have you seen any news or media about their city schools? Practically jails but more rowdy.
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    You know why? Because damn rules. In good old times if a student told teacher to fuck off a teacher would've given a student a cuff on the nape and the conflict would've been resolved. These days? Nope. You're not allowed to touch children. You're not allowed to yell at children. You can call parents at school and have another "he didn't do nothing" conversation. So what you do? You introduce zero tolerance rules. You call the police. You turn school into prison where the same set of extremely strict rules is applied to each and every student. And all of that could have been prevented by just one gentle slap!
    - austhrow743 6y ago
      Nah, other countries have non-jail schools without beating kids just fine.
      - war1025 6y ago
        > without beating kids There's a pretty wide spectrum between: "Can't discipline kids that act up" and "Beating kids" Kids need boundaries. It's literally what they spend a good portion of their time testing for. If you aren't allowed to provide boundaries for them, then they will flounder, which turns into a self-reinforcing cycle.
        austhrow743 6y ago
        The only tool I remember teachers or schools having the ability to wield against students when I was in school was suspension or expulsion. Are US schools not allowed to suspend kids?
        war1025 6y ago
- Ancapistani 6y ago
  My wife and I homeschool our two daughters. It’s been a huge blessing. AMA.
  - k__ 6y ago
    Where I come from (Germany), homeschooling is seen as a way to indoctrinate children to their parents religion. What do you think about this?
    - ryan93 6y ago
      It’s not your business?
      - throwaways885 6y ago
        This is HN. Discussion is kind of the whole point.
        Ancapistani 6y ago
        I agree. While I’m definitely in the camp of “it’s none of the state’s business”, stating that and expecting it to change minds is... not a very well-informed approach.
    - blumomo 6y ago
      Down-vote me if you’d like, but the opposite is also true, in many regards: Where I come from (Germany), (public) schooling is seen as a way to indoctrinate children to their government’s political agenda (call it a religion if you like). So as always, it depends: good parents, good home schooling. Bad parents, bad home schooling. Replace “parents” with “government” and you get the same message. Edit: As a German myself I’d like to add that your question reflects an attitude of the socialist/communist German Democratic Republic (you also know it as “DDR”): family is nothing, government is all. You leave all thinking and your responsibilities to the political agenda and world view of your political “leaders”. Is that a world you’d like to live in (again)?
- aikinai 6y ago
  When I was still in school, all the homeschooled kids I met were incredibly weird and I thought the same thing. Then later I had a friend whose little sister was homeschooled and they did it right. She was a part of some homeschooling group where the kids would get together frequently and the parents would takes turns leading different activities, often leveraging different parents' professions or special expertise. She was both well-socialized and had much more deep and engaging experiences than you can get in school. Though you still end up with the problem of when and how to rejoin the normal world since you're so far ahead.
  - ponker 6y ago
    Homeschooling doesn’t always make kids weird — parents of weird kids often pull them out of school because of bullying or fears of bullying.
  - surge 6y ago
    The other thing about this stereotype everyone remembers the one weird kid from home school. But its not like weird kids with socialization issues and social anxiety don't come out of public schools. Also no one factors that maybe the kid is being home schooled because they're weird. It's also possible they just have weird parents, and they're weird as a result, and school isn't going to save them from that.
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      There is probably a bias of people who choose to home school. The home schooled person I know was home schooled because their parents were deeply religious and didn't want a school teaching their child unapproved content but they also didn't have the skill or time to properly educate on things like math so they ended up far behind others. How many people that homeschool are actually knowledgeable enough and have the free time to replace full time teachers.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        I'm thinking that even if you are a competent "home teacher" you would still fall behind in areas that are outside your expertise. You'd need a collective of home teachers at which point all the perceived benefits of homeschooling disappear because you're handing your child to those weird teachers who aren't you.
- tomcam 6y ago
  https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/ https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools...
- surge 6y ago
  The rich do it all the time.
- rietta 6y ago
  I was home schooled all the way through high school. I often say my mom taught me to read and books taught me everything. I was a voracious reader of fiction and real books as a kid. Taught myself to program at 14. Taught myself enough to write an accounting program for my lawn care business from scratch to QBasic. I did graduate from a school-for-home-schoolers that the parents organized and got accepted to every college I applied to, choosing to go to the Georgia Institute of Technology for both a BS and MS. I had a fantastic experience. It wasn't until while at GA Tech that I first even heard a glimpse of this home schoolers are weird and mis-educated line. Anyway, looking back I am sure that the outcome is based on what the student puts into it. My experience may not be common, but I do personally know many people from my homeschooler groups who have gone on to be very successful adults, engineers, parents, and more.
  - istjohn 6y ago
    > I am sure that the outcome is based on what the student puts into it. I strongly disagree with the idea that the outcome of child education depends on "what the student puts into it." A quality education shapes a child, instills a growth mindset, nurtures curiosity, encourages grit and perseverance, and meets the child where they're at. A barren garden is not the fault of the seeds. This hits close to home for me as I am working with a child now who has been written off by his school and teachers as a "bad student." There is no such thing. He needs some extra support and coaching to learn some meta-strategies like asking for help when needed, planning, organization, and yes, diligence, but ultimately he wants to succeed and is capable of it, just like any other child. Children don't fail school. School fails children.
    - rietta 6y ago
      I appreciate your perspective as the father of an under 1 year old. She is our first and I have a lot of learning to do. I was commenting on that my homeschooling experience was great. However, I have a small direct sample of myself and my siblings and some homeschooling group friends.
- primrose 6y ago
  I'm guessing you never saw a kid get his head smashed on the ground during lunch.
crpatino 6y ago
I guess this is why you pay for the second-to-last yet most expensive education system in the developed world. If you want to run a day care, by all means, but just to pretend it is a school. Even if you run the day care in the same building, call it a day care. Make school an optional service on top of that.
xwdv 6y ago
School also puts kids at the mercy of other kids who make fun of them or worse beat the shit out of them and break their glasses.
- surge 6y ago
  The one place most people will experience or witness violence at least once in their life is in a school. No one mentions all the people who feel safe at home, but suffer abuse and ostracization or ignored by teachers at school. "Socialization", its like arguing people need food and then giving them dog food. Given most modern school schedules, lack of recess, and lunch breaks being barely enough time to eat, I heard even what socialization does take place is being diminished. School isn't the only and definitely not the best option for socialization. At least in home school, they mostly learn socialization by and with adults, excluding extracurricular activities and co-ops.
  - xwdv 6y ago
    Middle school was probably the only really violent time in my life. Several occasions I got the shit beaten thoroughly out of me and I was too scared to tell anyone about it because the fuckers threatened to just show up at my house or bus stop and beat me up even harder. I believed it. I often fantasized about bringing a gun to school and blowing them away, but knew I could never do it. It was fun to think about though as a kid. Don't know whatever happened to those kids, but I hope they're in prison or dead, or just living shitty lives. I doubt they ever got better.
    - surge 6y ago
      For me it was late middle, and first two years of high school. I actually had a guy wait in the hallways for me to pass by to terrorize me for one particular class. Another one I had to deal with on the bus when it got to be too much and I guess the bus driver observed enough of the constant abuse by this other kid that when the fight was over (I won), they didn't turn me in. But I saw fights that were much worse, fights that ended in bleeding, cracked ribs and concussions, thankfully there was hospital across the road. This was in a rural region high school, in the 90s, I can only imagine what its like in places with actual gangs, today, etc. The worse part about it is, you tell the teachers, they do nothing substantial, then you're a snitch. If you do the one thing likely to solve the problem, which is fight back, you're punished, and now the cops are called and you're likely arrested. Some kids eventually snap, and parents wonder why school shootings are a thing.
m0zg 6y ago
> get left alone all day This is called "benign neglect" and for me at least, it was an _essential_ part of my upbringing. I got to pursue stuff without interference. Nobody forced me to do sports, join clubs, study anything. After I came home from school I was completely on my own and did whatever the heck I wanted, from a very early age. Want to spend an afternoon soldering something? Fine. Fixing a moped? Go right ahead. Not doing anything at all? That's fine too. > puts kids in contact with adults who can serve as role models Do you have kids that attend public schools? God help us all if kids treat 80% of their teachers as "role models". One in five teachers my son is in contact with even remotely passes as a role model. Older guy, leads the school band. Everyone else couldn't give less of a shit even if they tried. And why give a shit? You can't be fired for not giving it anyway.
- balabaster 6y ago
  This was a part of my childhood too - mostly due to necessity of the fact that my Mom was a single Mom and if she wasn't at work, we didn't eat or have a roof over our heads. But I never felt like I was lacking for anything... I learned to manage my own boredom, find things to do that inspired me of my own doing. It forced me to forge my own destiny to a large extent. I realize that this was largely left to chance and that not many kids are self motivated to do much and fall in with circles of friends that lead them down a bad path, but I guess I lucked out.
  - Olreich 6y ago
    I don’t think it’s luck. Look at the Andy Griffith show for a glimpse of how children used to be treated close to a century ago. Look at small villages in many parts of the world. Children are basically given free reign to go and do what they want outside of specific times (school and nighttime). When you give a child freedom, they generally explore, learn, and exercise. Sometimes they do stupid things, but I’d be surprised if heavily structured days for children is good for children.
    - m0zg 6y ago
      > they generally explore, learn, and exercise Not anymore. Now they watch YouTube and play games. 100% passive brain rot. Source: have a 16 year old son.
ergocoder 6y ago
Well, school should be about education only. Teachers definitely cannot handle domestic violence. They aren't trained nor prepared nor paid nearly enough to handle dangerous homes.
nsomaru 6y ago
This is very true in South Africa where millions of children get their main meal for the day at school. Civil society had to go to court during lockdown to force the government to deliver the food!
- twblalock 6y ago
  Yeah, that's one that I forgot -- a lot of families are dependent on the free school lunch.
- mjevans 6y ago
  At least the school district in the suburb near Seattle that I live in has signs in front of the schools mentioning the lunch program is still providing food for such families and students in need.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    School districts around Seattle often provide meal programs over the summer breaks too. Breakfast and Lunch.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  A good number of children in the US also get their main meals at school. They quickly resumed serving them where I live even during lockdown.
  - r_c_a_d 6y ago
    One teacher in the UK actually delivered meals to kids personally during the lockdown. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-lockdown-zane-powles-grimsby-school-meals-children-a9457951.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-...
globular-toast 6y ago
That sounds more like daycare than school. Children don't need daycare. They should go to school to learn and at other times be out playing with other children. Teachers are supposed to be good at teaching, not good at looking after children. That's what the parents are for.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  The point is that in practice not all parents do a good job.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    But all schools do?
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      Yes. Schools do a better job than some parents. Think heroin addicts who beat their kids up every night. There's no equivalent of that in schools.
      - globular-toast 6y ago
        What difference is going to school going to make it they beat them up every night? Some schools are way worse than any good parents.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Teachers may notice and get authorities involved. > Some schools are way worse than any good parents. True, that’s the other side of the coin. I think most parents lack the resources to do the school’s job though. So there’s not much of a choice anyway.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
The effects you list are accurate, but they don't really enforce your main point. Just because public schools do mobilize kids out of their bad homes (by making it a parent's legal responsibility) doesn't mean it exists for this purpose. Schools are a place for kids to learn. It's not a place to get a meal, nor a solution to a bad home life. We ensure we provide these outcomes in schools today but that's only because society/govt has failed to get these things accomplished in a more appropriate manner.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  The expansion of the scope of public schooling to include mitigating a broad range of social problems reminds me of how US police have been forced to deal with social issues that they are not really equipped to handle, such as, mental health, child welfare, drug addiction, other poverty adjacent problems, or the like. There should be another agency directed to dealing with these out-of-scope issues. Because actual education efforts and funding gets diverted to dealing with the social issues rather than providing education.
  - ergocoder 6y ago
    Teachers can't handle bad homes. It requires different experience and expertise from, say, teaching chemistry.

k__ 6y ago

This. I still can not understand how US citizens see home schooling as a good thing.

rllearneratwork 6y ago
because a lot of public schools are horrible. All you need to know about my neighbourhood's elementary school (Bay Area, 20 min by bicycle from Apple's new campus) is that it has metal detector on entrance. Why? Gang activity. In freaking elementary school. School rating is 4/10 if you are curious.
- ponker 6y ago
  And a 3br house there is probably $1.4 million.
  - rllearneratwork 6y ago
    I'll just say that I paid $14,000 in property taxes alone last year
    - ponker 6y ago
      Lol Right there with ya buddy.
- zo1 6y ago
  Can't they just suspend and subsequently expel all the students involved in gang activity and gang culture? What is the problem preventing people from fixing gang activity in elementary schools such as that one?
  - imtringued 6y ago
    That would just institutionalize gang culture. Do you really think gangs really care about education? They care more about having active and indoctrinated members. You can be more active and can be easily manipulated if you don't go to school.
twblalock 6y ago
Home schooling works pretty well for affluent families who can afford to have one parent not working, or hire tutors. But that is not most families.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 6y ago
  I love my children, but I dont want to stay at home homeschooling them. I really dont, I am very sure I would be quite unhappy with that. And I am very sure about that, because I did stayed home for some time why they were small and it was most depressive period of my life. It is not just about money. Majority of guys here talking about home school as being money issue would not volunteered to leave their job to be stay at home parent long term. They just want somebody else to do it.
thepoordontvote 6y ago
Very often homeschool families collaborate to provide social activities. Or they put their kids in community sports programs or other group activities. Homeshooling doesn't mean the kids never leave the house.
- dudul 6y ago
  So true. I would even add that these social activities include kids of wide age ranges which is a much better way to prepare children to real life. Life is not composed of groups of people of similar ages.
- surge 6y ago
  Not to mention co-ops, flexibility (a parent is traveling some where for business, etc, take the kid and use it as a teaching opportunity, or its a nice day, nature walk this afternoon). The amazing part is how much of a child (and the teacher's time) is wasted, especially as class sizes grow and resources are strained (https://greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i-have-to-quit-teaching-and-no/article_b42f4ffe-8d20-5956-8375-e41a2dc088ec.html https://greensboro.com/opinion/columns/christie-murphy-why-i...). Home schooling usually takes half the day to get through all the required curriculum, because of all the time saved not getting 30 students to be quiet, lack of interruptions, etc. So little is getting done now in schools kids are coming home with hours of homework. Not good at explaining a subject, or the kid is having trouble groking it from the material, pull up a video on Khan Academy, or Kurzgesagt, or even a presentation by an Ivy League professor (like CS50) or someone who is foremost in the field. Have a fellow homeschool parent whose an expert in a field, let them teach help. Want to teach your kid financial planning, investing, and how to do taxes, you can. One style or mode of learning isn't working, try another like Montessori, direct instruction, don't need to run it through an administration, school board, and state officials. In a school, few if any breaks are given with no concern for attention spans, or mental burnout, you have to DO THIS THING AT THIS TIME. If the kid wants to do his lesson in a fun way, like dress up as Batman, he can, as long as they're doing their lessons, etc. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/12/new-research-finds-that-kids-aged-4-6-perform-better-during-boring-tasks-when-dressed-as-batman https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/12/new-research-finds-th... Are their parents who half ass it and their kid barely learns anything sure, but compared to the literacy rates most schools are producing they don't get to say much. https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-numbers-infographic https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-number...
AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
It usually happens in families with one stay-at-home parent. It turns out all RRR (reading/'riting/'rithmetics) and sciences can be squeezed into one or two days of intensive learning. Having five free days a week is pretty awesome.
- Hayvok 6y ago
  My wife was homeschooled, I went to public school. She decided to home school our three kids. I was skeptical at first. I was absolutely shocked at how quickly they cover all their subjects, homework, etc. every week. My kids get 10x the amount of play time I got at their age. It's great. Makes me regret all those years I spent in public school.
MattGaiser 6y ago
I was homeschooled until grade 8. You get to spend a lot more time exploring your interests as a kid that way. I have absolutely no regrets about it.
- pfarnsworth 6y ago
  Did you find it hard adjusting to grade 8?
austhrow743 6y ago
Have you seen any news or media about their city schools? Practically jails but more rowdy.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  You know why? Because damn rules. In good old times if a student told teacher to fuck off a teacher would've given a student a cuff on the nape and the conflict would've been resolved. These days? Nope. You're not allowed to touch children. You're not allowed to yell at children. You can call parents at school and have another "he didn't do nothing" conversation. So what you do? You introduce zero tolerance rules. You call the police. You turn school into prison where the same set of extremely strict rules is applied to each and every student. And all of that could have been prevented by just one gentle slap!
  - austhrow743 6y ago
    Nah, other countries have non-jail schools without beating kids just fine.
    - war1025 6y ago
      > without beating kids There's a pretty wide spectrum between: "Can't discipline kids that act up" and "Beating kids" Kids need boundaries. It's literally what they spend a good portion of their time testing for. If you aren't allowed to provide boundaries for them, then they will flounder, which turns into a self-reinforcing cycle.
      - austhrow743 6y ago
        The only tool I remember teachers or schools having the ability to wield against students when I was in school was suspension or expulsion. Are US schools not allowed to suspend kids?
        war1025 6y ago
Ancapistani 6y ago
My wife and I homeschool our two daughters. It’s been a huge blessing. AMA.
- k__ 6y ago
  Where I come from (Germany), homeschooling is seen as a way to indoctrinate children to their parents religion. What do you think about this?
  - ryan93 6y ago
    It’s not your business?
    - throwaways885 6y ago
      This is HN. Discussion is kind of the whole point.
      - Ancapistani 6y ago
        I agree. While I’m definitely in the camp of “it’s none of the state’s business”, stating that and expecting it to change minds is... not a very well-informed approach.
  - blumomo 6y ago
    Down-vote me if you’d like, but the opposite is also true, in many regards: Where I come from (Germany), (public) schooling is seen as a way to indoctrinate children to their government’s political agenda (call it a religion if you like). So as always, it depends: good parents, good home schooling. Bad parents, bad home schooling. Replace “parents” with “government” and you get the same message. Edit: As a German myself I’d like to add that your question reflects an attitude of the socialist/communist German Democratic Republic (you also know it as “DDR”): family is nothing, government is all. You leave all thinking and your responsibilities to the political agenda and world view of your political “leaders”. Is that a world you’d like to live in (again)?
aikinai 6y ago
When I was still in school, all the homeschooled kids I met were incredibly weird and I thought the same thing. Then later I had a friend whose little sister was homeschooled and they did it right. She was a part of some homeschooling group where the kids would get together frequently and the parents would takes turns leading different activities, often leveraging different parents' professions or special expertise. She was both well-socialized and had much more deep and engaging experiences than you can get in school. Though you still end up with the problem of when and how to rejoin the normal world since you're so far ahead.
- ponker 6y ago
  Homeschooling doesn’t always make kids weird — parents of weird kids often pull them out of school because of bullying or fears of bullying.
- surge 6y ago
  The other thing about this stereotype everyone remembers the one weird kid from home school. But its not like weird kids with socialization issues and social anxiety don't come out of public schools. Also no one factors that maybe the kid is being home schooled because they're weird. It's also possible they just have weird parents, and they're weird as a result, and school isn't going to save them from that.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    There is probably a bias of people who choose to home school. The home schooled person I know was home schooled because their parents were deeply religious and didn't want a school teaching their child unapproved content but they also didn't have the skill or time to properly educate on things like math so they ended up far behind others. How many people that homeschool are actually knowledgeable enough and have the free time to replace full time teachers.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      I'm thinking that even if you are a competent "home teacher" you would still fall behind in areas that are outside your expertise. You'd need a collective of home teachers at which point all the perceived benefits of homeschooling disappear because you're handing your child to those weird teachers who aren't you.
tomcam 6y ago
https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/ https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools...
surge 6y ago
The rich do it all the time.
rietta 6y ago
I was home schooled all the way through high school. I often say my mom taught me to read and books taught me everything. I was a voracious reader of fiction and real books as a kid. Taught myself to program at 14. Taught myself enough to write an accounting program for my lawn care business from scratch to QBasic. I did graduate from a school-for-home-schoolers that the parents organized and got accepted to every college I applied to, choosing to go to the Georgia Institute of Technology for both a BS and MS. I had a fantastic experience. It wasn't until while at GA Tech that I first even heard a glimpse of this home schoolers are weird and mis-educated line. Anyway, looking back I am sure that the outcome is based on what the student puts into it. My experience may not be common, but I do personally know many people from my homeschooler groups who have gone on to be very successful adults, engineers, parents, and more.
- istjohn 6y ago
  > I am sure that the outcome is based on what the student puts into it. I strongly disagree with the idea that the outcome of child education depends on "what the student puts into it." A quality education shapes a child, instills a growth mindset, nurtures curiosity, encourages grit and perseverance, and meets the child where they're at. A barren garden is not the fault of the seeds. This hits close to home for me as I am working with a child now who has been written off by his school and teachers as a "bad student." There is no such thing. He needs some extra support and coaching to learn some meta-strategies like asking for help when needed, planning, organization, and yes, diligence, but ultimately he wants to succeed and is capable of it, just like any other child. Children don't fail school. School fails children.
  - rietta 6y ago
    I appreciate your perspective as the father of an under 1 year old. She is our first and I have a lot of learning to do. I was commenting on that my homeschooling experience was great. However, I have a small direct sample of myself and my siblings and some homeschooling group friends.
primrose 6y ago
I'm guessing you never saw a kid get his head smashed on the ground during lunch.

crpatino 6y ago

I guess this is why you pay for the second-to-last yet most expensive education system in the developed world. If you want to run a day care, by all means, but just to pretend it is a school. Even if you run the day care in the same building, call it a day care. Make school an optional service on top of that.

xwdv 6y ago

School also puts kids at the mercy of other kids who make fun of them or worse beat the shit out of them and break their glasses.

surge 6y ago
The one place most people will experience or witness violence at least once in their life is in a school. No one mentions all the people who feel safe at home, but suffer abuse and ostracization or ignored by teachers at school. "Socialization", its like arguing people need food and then giving them dog food. Given most modern school schedules, lack of recess, and lunch breaks being barely enough time to eat, I heard even what socialization does take place is being diminished. School isn't the only and definitely not the best option for socialization. At least in home school, they mostly learn socialization by and with adults, excluding extracurricular activities and co-ops.
- xwdv 6y ago
  Middle school was probably the only really violent time in my life. Several occasions I got the shit beaten thoroughly out of me and I was too scared to tell anyone about it because the fuckers threatened to just show up at my house or bus stop and beat me up even harder. I believed it. I often fantasized about bringing a gun to school and blowing them away, but knew I could never do it. It was fun to think about though as a kid. Don't know whatever happened to those kids, but I hope they're in prison or dead, or just living shitty lives. I doubt they ever got better.
  - surge 6y ago
    For me it was late middle, and first two years of high school. I actually had a guy wait in the hallways for me to pass by to terrorize me for one particular class. Another one I had to deal with on the bus when it got to be too much and I guess the bus driver observed enough of the constant abuse by this other kid that when the fight was over (I won), they didn't turn me in. But I saw fights that were much worse, fights that ended in bleeding, cracked ribs and concussions, thankfully there was hospital across the road. This was in a rural region high school, in the 90s, I can only imagine what its like in places with actual gangs, today, etc. The worse part about it is, you tell the teachers, they do nothing substantial, then you're a snitch. If you do the one thing likely to solve the problem, which is fight back, you're punished, and now the cops are called and you're likely arrested. Some kids eventually snap, and parents wonder why school shootings are a thing.

m0zg 6y ago

> get left alone all day This is called "benign neglect" and for me at least, it was an _essential_ part of my upbringing. I got to pursue stuff without interference. Nobody forced me to do sports, join clubs, study anything. After I came home from school I was completely on my own and did whatever the heck I wanted, from a very early age. Want to spend an afternoon soldering something? Fine. Fixing a moped? Go right ahead. Not doing anything at all? That's fine too. > puts kids in contact with adults who can serve as role models Do you have kids that attend public schools? God help us all if kids treat 80% of their teachers as "role models". One in five teachers my son is in contact with even remotely passes as a role model. Older guy, leads the school band. Everyone else couldn't give less of a shit even if they tried. And why give a shit? You can't be fired for not giving it anyway.

balabaster 6y ago
This was a part of my childhood too - mostly due to necessity of the fact that my Mom was a single Mom and if she wasn't at work, we didn't eat or have a roof over our heads. But I never felt like I was lacking for anything... I learned to manage my own boredom, find things to do that inspired me of my own doing. It forced me to forge my own destiny to a large extent. I realize that this was largely left to chance and that not many kids are self motivated to do much and fall in with circles of friends that lead them down a bad path, but I guess I lucked out.
- Olreich 6y ago
  I don’t think it’s luck. Look at the Andy Griffith show for a glimpse of how children used to be treated close to a century ago. Look at small villages in many parts of the world. Children are basically given free reign to go and do what they want outside of specific times (school and nighttime). When you give a child freedom, they generally explore, learn, and exercise. Sometimes they do stupid things, but I’d be surprised if heavily structured days for children is good for children.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    > they generally explore, learn, and exercise Not anymore. Now they watch YouTube and play games. 100% passive brain rot. Source: have a 16 year old son.

ergocoder 6y ago

Well, school should be about education only. Teachers definitely cannot handle domestic violence. They aren't trained nor prepared nor paid nearly enough to handle dangerous homes.

nsomaru 6y ago

This is very true in South Africa where millions of children get their main meal for the day at school. Civil society had to go to court during lockdown to force the government to deliver the food!

twblalock 6y ago
Yeah, that's one that I forgot -- a lot of families are dependent on the free school lunch.
mjevans 6y ago
At least the school district in the suburb near Seattle that I live in has signs in front of the schools mentioning the lunch program is still providing food for such families and students in need.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  School districts around Seattle often provide meal programs over the summer breaks too. Breakfast and Lunch.
chaostheory 6y ago
A good number of children in the US also get their main meals at school. They quickly resumed serving them where I live even during lockdown.
- r_c_a_d 6y ago
  One teacher in the UK actually delivered meals to kids personally during the lockdown. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-lockdown-zane-powles-grimsby-school-meals-children-a9457951.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-...

globular-toast 6y ago

That sounds more like daycare than school. Children don't need daycare. They should go to school to learn and at other times be out playing with other children. Teachers are supposed to be good at teaching, not good at looking after children. That's what the parents are for.

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
The point is that in practice not all parents do a good job.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  But all schools do?
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    Yes. Schools do a better job than some parents. Think heroin addicts who beat their kids up every night. There's no equivalent of that in schools.
    - globular-toast 6y ago
      What difference is going to school going to make it they beat them up every night? Some schools are way worse than any good parents.
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Teachers may notice and get authorities involved. > Some schools are way worse than any good parents. True, that’s the other side of the coin. I think most parents lack the resources to do the school’s job though. So there’s not much of a choice anyway.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago

The effects you list are accurate, but they don't really enforce your main point. Just because public schools do mobilize kids out of their bad homes (by making it a parent's legal responsibility) doesn't mean it exists for this purpose. Schools are a place for kids to learn. It's not a place to get a meal, nor a solution to a bad home life. We ensure we provide these outcomes in schools today but that's only because society/govt has failed to get these things accomplished in a more appropriate manner.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
The expansion of the scope of public schooling to include mitigating a broad range of social problems reminds me of how US police have been forced to deal with social issues that they are not really equipped to handle, such as, mental health, child welfare, drug addiction, other poverty adjacent problems, or the like. There should be another agency directed to dealing with these out-of-scope issues. Because actual education efforts and funding gets diverted to dealing with the social issues rather than providing education.
- ergocoder 6y ago
  Teachers can't handle bad homes. It requires different experience and expertise from, say, teaching chemistry.