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Boeing cuts flight training pilots, will outsource jobs overseas
- crocal 6y agoWhy would Boeing take such a symbolically negative decision now? Either we miss part of the picture, or the leadership of this company is...
- playeren 6y agoThis is a wild stab in the dark, but it could be some sort of legal distancing or compartmentalization of liability. If this is a pure cost-cutting measure, it hardly seems worth the optics of this action.
- tjpnz 6y agoIf that's true I would be even less inclined to board a 737 MAX in future.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoThe upside is that they pay your family approx 144K USD if it smashes into the ground and you don't make it ... for many people that is a nice chunk of change.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoUntil heads roll--actual criminal liability--then I'm afraid your point stands: Catastrophic failures are a cost of doing business.
- deeblering4 6y agoAt this point my outlook is “if its a Boeing, I’m not going“
- TeMPOraL 6y agoCatchy rhyme. I could see it spread in the wider population in this form - it's memegenic :).
- sk5t 6y agoThis is the inverse of an existing well known expression, sad to say.
- bacondude3 6y ago"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going"
- swebs 6y agoDo you even get a choice if you need to book a flight?
- alistairSH 6y agoNot easily or cost-effectively. You can... ... book on an airline that flies Airbus only. There may be a few of those, but it severely limits choice in airline. ... try to determine which Boeing model is used, and be willing to walk away at the gate if the plane is changed out (losing the ticket, or at best incurring a typically large change fee).
- rob74 6y agoDepends on the route and on the airlines available. For example, Delta doesn't currently have the 737 Max, and I highly doubt they will order it in the near future. In Germany, Lufthansa doesn't have any 737 in its fleet anymore.
- nemetroid 6y agoSome sites show it on the booking page, and if not, there are various sites* on which you can look up the flight number to see what aircraft type has been used historically. Sometimes several different types are cycled on a given flight (e.g. Boeing 777 and Airbus A350), but for many flight numbers it's always the same aircraft type. For example, American Airlines has tons of both 737 and A320 aircraft, but AA858 seemingly always uses a 737-800 (B738): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa858 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa858 * e.g. flightaware.com and flightradar24.com
- AmericanChopper 6y agoA more likely stab in the dark is that they were financially in some trouble after the MAX issues, have been put in further trouble by many of their customers becoming borderline bankrupt, and this is just a stereotypical cost cutting move.
- ajmurmann 6y agoGiven the article describes the outsourcing company as located on the Isle of Man, and wrapped in shell companies, I have a hard time not believing legal distancing reasons or at least maybe shady tax evasion practise
- valuearb 6y agoThat’s the contracting company, which probably domiciled for tax reasons.
- Seanambers 6y agoBoeing seems lost. Were would they be without the military contracts - chapter 11.
- yk 6y agoWell, I guess Boeing was in trouble after the 737 and then came Covid and the associated collapse of air travel. Together with the announcement of moving the 787 production to North Carolina last week, this feels like grasping for straws.
- valuearb 6y agoBecause the union that publicized the layoff was asking for too much, and contractors can do the same job just as well and much cheape?
- kwhitefoot 6y agocontractors can do the same job just as well and much cheape? How long for? Where will contractors learn their trade in the future?
- Ericson2314 6y agoBecause beating back unions is the one thing worth the bad press.
- Phrenzy 6y agoBoeing is run via macros on Excel spreadsheets. If an action will turn a field from red to yellow or yellow to green, they will do it.
- mschuster91 6y agoAnd here one might have hoped that the bean counters at Boeing had learned from the various disasters of the last years. Especially "amazing": even if every one of these pilots earns a million dollars a year and the "contractors" half of that, they'd still only save about 3.5 million dollars a year. Just... what the fuck? On the scale of Boeing, that's a drop in the bucket.
- mstipetic 6y agoIt's so some manager can say "achieved savings of 20 million over 5 years" on his CV
- chrisseaton 6y agoAre you making an assumption that pilot trainers employed by an overseas company will be worse? Why?
- tibbydudeza 6y agoPAI (Pakistan International Airlines) grounded over a 150 pilots due to forged licenses.
- chrisseaton 6y agoIs this a relevant problem when the contractor in this case is based on the Isle of Mann? Do you think the US has some kind of monopoly on competent pilots?
- tibbydudeza 6y agoIsle of Mann ... while they host a lovely motorbike race , it also has a reputation for being haven for some corporate dodginess. "According to union officials, CCL’s ownership structure is a company within a nest of shell companies" Yep ... it must be the scenery.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
- tibbydudeza 6y agoThat worked well for the flight control software of the 737-MAX
- thewarrior 6y agoIt was not outsourced.
- tibbydudeza 6y agohttps://www.quora.com/Did-Boeing-outsource-their-flight-control-software-on-737-MAX-8-to-India https://www.quora.com/Did-Boeing-outsource-their-flight-cont... https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-setting-up-new-in-house-unit-to-build-avionics-controls/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein...
- thackerway8 6y agoThe Seattle Times article doesn't mention India. Only some random person on Quora claims the subcontractor was Indian.
- donedealomg 6y agoThe most shitty code in the world comes from India. This is my personal professional experience after 25+ years in the job. People are just speaking out of experience. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/95-engineers-in-india-unfit-for-software-development-jobs-report/articleshow/58278004.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/95-engineers-... 95% engineers in India unfit for software development jobs: study
- salawat 6y agoThe flight control software wasn't worked on by the infamous $9 an hour engineers. That was the multi-function display, on which one could only actually get as far as possibly contributing to not displaying the AoA disagree warning if I recall correctly. What it does demonstrate, however, is Management's ruthless devotion to chasing the bottom dollar. What further probing may have been done by someone more deeply invested and dedicated to the task? I don't at all blame someone only getting $9 dollars an hour for "Yes-manning" it. I do, however, blame the exec woefully ignorant of the environment and effect on overall culture that has. When you start engineering for the sake of financials like that, you intentionally invite writing checks your work culture can't cash down the road. My two cents.
- redis_mlc 6y agoThe current leaders of US companies proudly and strongly resist considering their product lines as meaningful, beyond ROI. But that doesn't work when you're in aerospace and have no regard for engineering tradition or skill. You can see that in the implosion of GE, and now Boeing. The US government needs to come up with a requirement that private contractors mandate high-quality training and oversight embedded into their internal processes. Ironically, flight training materials and evaluation is very high-quality in the US, but it's a single manufacturer, Boeing, that's struggling to meet quality standards across all of their airliner models.
- xiphias2 6y agoBoeing should just fire everybody who’s not part of management, subcontract an Indian or Brazil company and buy back its own stocks from the remaining money.
- Tepix 6y ago> Boeing should just fire everybody who’s part of management Fixed that for you
- masklinn 6y agoBut then what of the "shareholder value"? They'd have to pay out tens or hundreds of millions in executive bonus and would not be artificially inflating the stock.
- raverbashing 6y ago> But then what of the "shareholder value"? That's the joke (Or not, for some MBA types that think brand name is somehow magical...)
- robomartin 6y agoSeth Godin often makes the distinction between having a brand and a logo with interesting examples. The one I like is that if you can put your logo on a competitor's product and nobody would know the difference, you don't have a brand, you have a logo. The example he uses are hotel chains. http://www.youarefired.com/do-you-have-a-brand-or-a-logo/ http://www.youarefired.com/do-you-have-a-brand-or-a-logo/
- bdauvergne 6y agoDon't work with coca cola, I would no be able to differentiate a Pepsi bottle with a Coca-Cola logo (note that I dislike every sodas :) ); the Coca-Cola is still powerful, perhaps it does not even need a product :)
- 8K832d7tNmiQ 6y agoHave they ever learned a lesson or two about it back when they did it with 787? or even 737 MAX?
- Symbiote 6y agoIt says they're outsourcing to this Manx company. The British regulations and so on are presumably similar to American ones, but it does mean there's probably less communication back to Boeing of any relevant feedback. https://cclaviation.com/ https://cclaviation.com/
- ezequiel-garzon 6y agoAs the Isle of Mann is not part of the UK, is it bound to follow British laws and regulations?
- tibbydudeza 6y agoIt has it's own laws and system of govt ... UK only deals with defense and foreign affairs.
- usr1106 6y agoIt's spelled the Isle of Man. It's a tax heaven. They don't have any sizeable administration to supervise or enforce any legislation nor do they intend so. Obviously their "business model" is to attract rich people and shady businesses that they don't offer any public services for. The nominal taxes they collect are good income for their little island. But for those who pay them much cheaper than what they would have to pay in a more functional state. Disclaimer: Have been there for a holiday trip. Nice place if you disregard the moral aspect of the British Crown "owning" the place.
- valuearb 6y agoThe contractors have to meet Boeing’s regulations, not the Isle of Nan rules.
- ivraatiems 6y agoThis may not be completely accurate. According to [1], these pilots were part of a redundant program not related to the 737 MAX. Doesn't make this a great move, I still question it, but the original article didn't include any response from Boeing, and they are claiming something quite different. [1] https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-09-22/boeing-engineers-union-clash-over-pilot-layoffs https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-0...
- playeren 6y agoWhile I do not believe there are many incentives for Boeing to be frank about its motivations or the specifics of the layoffs, I am glad you added this article, as it does provide a response to the allegations, and more details to further probe.
- HenryKissinger 6y agoThis website served me an ad about L3Harris' flight data recorder. I haven't been looking for a new flight data recorder recently. So why would they market such a specialized device to random people like me?
- Waterluvian 6y agoI get advertised industrial robots all the time because that’s the industry I’m in. Advertising is weird.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoWhy would that be weird? If that's the industry your in wouldn't it make sense to target you, even if you're not involved directly in purchasing decisions.
- Waterluvian 6y agoI mean I’m in the industry of building and selling them. It’s weird to me that they’re hitting a software engineer with their own company’s ads. As you allude to, you’d think the ads need to land in front of the business and management types in warehouse and industrial spaces. It feels like they can’t target precisely enough so they just kind of target certain keywords that is a very widely cast net. It happened at my last company too. They were so proud of being a real company with an ad campaign and then I immediately saw their ads all the time. I was really expecting some level of precision.
- FartyMcFarter 6y agoIs the 737 MAX actually needed by anyone? With travel restrictions, people afraid of catching covid, economy crashing, and plenty of good competitor planes with better reputation, why would airlines need (or want) to buy these planes?
- a5withtrrs 6y agoSure. Maybe not in 2020, or even 2021, but at some point travel is likely to resume to pre-COVID levels. How long that takes is anyones guess, but the desire for a more efficient aircraft to cram even more people inside of to save on costs will always be a priority for any (remaining) airlines.
- grosswait 6y agoIn talk by United's president, he said they expect pre-COVID levels of travel not to return until 2027
- thackerway8 6y agoNo, the malfunctioning 737-MAX flight control software was NOT developed in India. The Boeing apologists on reddit have been making up those claims for months. All embedded real-time control software in Boeing planes is developed in the US. Boeing only outsources some internal IT to Indian subcontractors. The internal IT is things like HR, payroll etc. Only Airbus extensively use Indian suppliers in their planes: https://www.thehindu.com/business/every-airbus-is-partly-made-in-india/article8365867.ece https://www.thehindu.com/business/every-airbus-is-partly-mad... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-wBYdSUwAEDKeK.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-wBYdSUwAEDKeK.jpg
- tibbydudeza 6y agoThe article claims otherwise. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-setting-up-new-in-house-unit-to-build-avionics-controls/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... From Bloomberg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06- 28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers That same year, Boeing opened what it called a “center of excellence” with HCL in Chennai, saying the companies would partner “to create software critical for flight test.” In 2011, Boeing named Cyient, then known as Infotech, to a list of its “suppliers of the year” for design, stress analysis and software engineering Well that does not sound like only some payroll or HR outsourcing to me.
- nemetroid 6y ago> Boeing only outsources some internal IT to Indian subcontractors. The internal IT is things like HR, payroll etc. This statement is obviously incorrect. As stated on boeing.co.in[1]: > Today, Boeing India has 3,500 employees, and more than 7,000 people who work on dedicated supply chain jobs with Indian suppliers across manufacturing, engineering and IT sectors. BIETC undertakes complex advanced aerospace work and supports Boeing’s global engineering growth. Boeing’s wholly owned engineering and technology campus with future avionics manufacturing and assembly capability is coming up in Bengaluru. 1: https://www.boeing.co.in/boeing-in-india/about-boeing-in-india.page https://www.boeing.co.in/boeing-in-india/about-boeing-in-ind...
- Havoc 6y agoI'm sure that'll totally fix the company culture >Isle of Mann * Man
- thackerway8 6y agoAirbus has been outsourcing for years: https://www.thehindu.com/business/every-airbus-is-partly-made-in-india/article8365867.ece https://www.thehindu.com/business/every-airbus-is-partly-mad... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-wBYdSUwAEDKeK.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-wBYdSUwAEDKeK.jpg It's funny that Americans on HN and reddit are trying to blame Boeing's technical incompetence on Indian suppliers and subcontractors. Why are Airbus planes not suffering similar problems and why is Airbus not blaming it on Indian suppliers and subcontractors? It seems like typical American ethics to blame a problem on the poorest and brownest person in the room. Meanwhile Airbus is taking away market share from Boeing. Good.
- macintux 6y agoI only see one commenter here implying that. I suspect far more Americans blame Boeing for their own incompetence.
- quercusa 6y agoThe move to Chicago was an early indication of bad decision-making.
- sJ646U9k6c6gME9 6y agoDon’t attribute to racism that which can be adequately explained by greed. The good thing about greed is that it’s generally colorblind. The bad thing is that it’s much harder to stop than racism, which is rooted in ignorance. Enlightenment tends to beget more greed, and that’s just the American way.
- mattacular 6y ago1. Racism and greed can very easily coexist. Just look at the entirety of American history for examples. 2. Racism is not easy to stop and not as simple as addressing ignorance. Again, I invite you to look at the entirety of American history for examples. You could also look to current affairs.
- pessimizer 6y ago
- hexbinencoded 6y agoBtw, there's a 737 MAX update Sept 24 from blancolirio about Boeing and the FAA hammering out modifications to training and systems that will eventually put the idle birds back in the air. https://youtu.be/zpQUTa-8j9c https://youtu.be/zpQUTa-8j9c FAA Administrator Steve Dixon & Deputy Administrator Daniel Elswell will personally crew a 737 MAX next week: https://youtu.be/ObSLEiefHcE https://youtu.be/ObSLEiefHcE The EASA is aiming for November recert. FAA was last aiming for a no earlier than October for a final published AD to bring it back.
- pixl97 6y agoIs anyone going to fly on them at this time is another question.
- AJ007 6y agoMost of the US airlines will end up bankrupt in the next 12 months which will give the re-organized companies a lot of contractual leeway in deciding what planes they really want to fly. I would discount anything Boeing says or does at this point. Their financial outlook is tied to the airlines but worse. The upside is the assumption of federal bailouts for Boeing are morning likely than those for airlines. Whether or not that outlook retains Boeing's current equity holders is another issue.
- vultour 6y agoUnfortunately the average flier does not know or care what aircraft they're sitting in
- hehetrthrthrjn 6y agoIt's right there on the safety card, if they care to look. I guess it's too late by then.
- bilbo0s 6y agoIt's also on a lot of the booking and check in sites when you select a seat.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sarfraaz 6y agoWhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
- sarfraaz 6y agoyes yes yes
- epmaybe 6y agoAm I reading this right, there is this much news for firing 7 people? Are they just extremely valued? Clearly not to boeing execs, I guess.
- valuearb 6y agoThey were unionized, that’s why you are hearing about it.
- Pfhreak 6y agoI've said it in every previous post where Boeing makes a profit vs safety trade-off: We should nationalize Boeing. It's in our strategic interest to be able to manufacture planes, Boeing provides lots of decent wage jobs, it has wildly overpaid executives, and it had shown that when given the choice it will choose profit over safety. Nationalization removes the profit motive, ends the bizarre tax subsidies that get pushed around.
- JumpCrisscross 6y agoWhy not just regulate it as a utility? Precedent for nationalisation in America is lacking, and the track record where it exists poor.
- Quarrelsome 6y agoHow much do upper management of utility companies get paid?
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> How much do upper management of utility companies get paid? Competent, cheap and limited power. Pick two. The executive of Boeing, public or private, will control vast resources. If you underpay, you will get an idiot who follows the rules or someone who makes up the difference in undesirable ways. (Someone competent motivated by a sense of duty has better options in terms of executive staffing.)
- coliveira 6y agoThere is little evidence that highly paid executives make better decisions than other similarly educated individuals. They're just "smarter" in the sense of getting into a company and/or field that pays more for similar expertise. The reality shows that huge companies make lots of mistakes, but they're often protected from these mistakes by their strong position in the market. See for example companies such as IBM, GE, GM, etc.
- coldtea 6y agoWhat could possibly go wrong?
- comeonseriously 6y agoThe MBAs are coming to take me away, ha ha he he, the MBAs are coming to take me away!
- jjuhl 6y agoRule of thumb: "Not Going on a Boing".
- mrlonglong 6y agoI'm rolling my eyes at this. The dreaded MBAs salivating at obscenely huge bonuses doing this to benefit themselves and stockholders at the expense of humanity.