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It seems they are now bringing additional allegations[1] to other Wikileaks Associates _and_ people who gave talks at CCC between 2013-2015. Namely Jake Appelab

It seems they are now bringing additional allegations[1] to other Wikileaks Associates _and_ people who gave talks at CCC between 2013-2015. Namely Jake Appelabaum who is currently (doing a PhD[1] with T. Lange & DJB). The US seems to have a hard-on also for members of the "Rosa-Luxembourg Stiftung" who insulted the empire by giving talks about their illegal drone wars[2][3] and shed light on how German engineers were working as sub-contractors for US airbases in Germany (as data scientist and software engineers). EU countries, especially Germany, France (I have less hope for Eastern-EU or Sweden) need to stop extraditions to US of A stat. Also these US terrorists dressed up as politicians need to be sanctioned (I understand this is a pipe dream) and prosecuted at the ICC (another pipe dream). --- [0] (in German) https://www.heise.de/tp/features/USA-spaehten-fuer-Assange-Anklage-Veranstaltungen-in-Deutschland-aus-4909851.html https://www.heise.de/tp/features/USA-spaehten-fuer-Assange-A... [1] https://hyperelliptic.org/tanja/students.html https://hyperelliptic.org/tanja/students.html [2] https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7259-graphs_drones_phones https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7259-graphs_drones_phones [3] https://www.rosalux.de/dokumentation/id/14090/drone-warfare-origins-consequences-and-the-worldwide-resistance-to-it https://www.rosalux.de/dokumentation/id/14090/drone-warfare-...

scoot_718 6y ago
Sounds like a legitimate grievance if they're going out and recruiting people to steal secrets. In fact if they can prove a money link, they just look like a branch of the FSB.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  for anyone who disagrees with US policy and considers it hostile, abusive, hypocritical (and hence a threat to their own values) ... their view could be: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And so it doesn't matter where the money comes from as long as they work on the same goal (e.g. stopping the war mongering hypocrisy that is US foreign policy). The current (dire) state of Russia after all is a failure in US foreign policy (the biggest tragedy and a massive lost opportunity in how the US handled the crumbling USSR). In Europe we have a refugee-crisis and constant debates about what to do with them. In that debate we forget that it was the US that invaded Iraq, Lybia - they are responsible for it. Sure the Wagner group is there now as well profiting the same way as US contractors. But Africom, Blackwater and every yank in a uniform are a much larger threat to peace than Russia & China combined. (regardless what nutter occupies the whitehouse)
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    I blame Libya on Europe, but the point still stands.
    - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
      Europe is far from blameless in any of this. Frontex and their deal with Turkey and everything surrounding the management of the crisis is absolutely infuriating. "We" are as bad as the US for not making a stand and even enabling them.
      - the-dude 6y ago
        I have commented this here earlier this week : the EU is a trade-bloc, the rest is posturing.
        DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
        I hope EU stays a trade-bloc and everyone else considers de-escalating. I also don't trust the EU with too much power. the solution (imho) has to be peaceful - not forcing parties to spend more on defense and grandstanding.
        marcus_holmes 6y ago
        Now that the UK is not throwing spanners into the works every time the subject comes up, we can expect a Federal Europe to appear much quicker.
        the-dude 6y ago
        You make it appear as if that would be a good thing. I disagree.
        metiscus 6y ago
        Which thing are you saying is good, the Uk stopping a federal europe or the creation of the same?
- dexterdog 6y ago
  Caa you steal a secret if that secret is illegal?
  - naringas 6y ago
    yes, however saying "learn (a secret)" is more precise
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  Whistleblowing is not stealing (literally, in the legal sense, you’d have to prove it’s not whistleblowing in order for it to be possible to be stealing). Jumping straight to a phrase like “stealing secrets” completely skips past due process to determine if it’s whistleblowing and presumes guilt instead of innocence.
  - scoot_718 6y ago
    If you're paying other people to turn, and hack to achieve access, that's not whistleblowing.
    - megous 6y ago
      Even if true, why would it not be?
    - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
      Yes, in fact, it absolutely can be. It completely depends on the criminality of the information obtained.
      - hackinthebochs 6y ago
        Nonsense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether a crime is discovered in the stolen content. The two are not mutually exclusive.
        mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Nonsense. The law is extremely complex on these points and you’re trying to play semantic games with the terms “theft” and “stealing” to pretend like it’s black and white. Taking evidence due to a statutory duty to your government (reporting crimes) is not theft. You can’t just magically invoke the term “theft” and invoke tautologies like “stealing is stealing” - that’s not how any of this works. It literally does depend on whether the taken documents reveal a crime, along with other factors about how your job or normal access would bring you in contact with the materials and also if the materials taken are over broad (i.e. you wanted documents to show a pattern of sexual harassment but also took a bunch of unrelated private client data). https://www.whistleblowerllc.com/you-call-it-theft-i-call-it-evidence/ https://www.whistleblowerllc.com/you-call-it-theft-i-call-it... Given that in the case of Manning & Wikileaks, the crimes being reported (which were proven beyond all doubt) included criminal murder perpetrated systematically by US military and federal agents, as well as grand scale deception and rigging of the Democratic Primary in 2016, and shitloads of illegal torture and illegal imprisonment across Europe, the Middle East and Guantanamo, it’s also beyond dispute that the moral duty (and statutory duty for Americans involved like Manning) to release the materials was undeniable and the crimes were so sweeping and severe that no part of the taking or publishing of the documents can be considered over broad.
the-dude 6y ago
The Hague act : https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-be... Yes, we are partners in NATO. edit: 18 yrs later, it strikes me as how pre-emptive this was.
swiley 6y ago
I've heard the US has what essentially amount to a DRM on a lot of EU military equipment. Most of the west just seems really tangled up in general.
rv-de 6y ago
Appelbaum became also famous for sexually harassing women. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/27/what-you-should-know-about-the-sexual-misconduct-scandal-that-shook-the-privacy-world/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/27... https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-resigns-amid-sex-abuse-claims/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- plzbo 6y ago
  > for sexually harassing women. You have to differentiate between claims made against him and what he did in reality. Most of those claims seem to be fabricated and/or were even redacted by the sources, see: https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations/komplettansicht https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexu...
fit2rule 6y ago
You are going to get downvoted into oblivion once the American contingent of HN wakes up, but before that happens I wanted to say thank you very much for making this statement: EU countries, especially Germany, France (I have less hope for Eastern-EU or Sweden) need to stop extraditions to US of A stat. Also these US terrorists dressed up as politicians need to be sanctioned (I understand this is a pipe dream) and prosecuted at the ICC (another pipe dream). It is true. The US needs to start being sanctioned for its war crimes, its crimes against humanity, and its anti-democratic behaviour. The failure of the American people to reign in their heinous war machine needs to be brought back to them. It is feet-to-the-fire time.
- moneytalks 6y ago
  As a US person myself, I don't really take issue with stopping extraditions because it would probably be a lot cheaper just to execute enemies abroad. Think how much money Putin has saved over the years. Now the whole Kashoggi mess shows how easy it is for this approach to backfire, so you certainly have to be careful.
romanoderoma 6y ago
> need to stop extraditions to US of A stat Extradition from EU to US is never allowed if in the US the people extradited risk the death penalty. There are discussions going about abolishing it entirely for states that support death penalty, regardless of the single case implications.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  I suppose that's not very consoling when you're staring at 30, 60 or more than 100 years in prison. The US should not have power to extradite EU citizens for the same reasons we also don't extradite people to Belarus or China. It's a one sided deal as was illustrated in the case of recent killing of a UK teen by an US diplomat: Extradition of U.S. Diplomat’s Wife Sought in U.K. Teen’s Death https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-11/extradition-of-u-s-diplomat-s-wife-sought-in-u-k-teen-s-death https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-11/extraditi... also the way US treats its prison population and allows torture (enhanced interrogation) doesn't make it better than any other banana republic. It's in no way better than China. it just has more effective propaganda.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    The US does extradite to China... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-crime/china-hails-first-fugitive-extradition-from-u-s-under-trump-idUSKBN18S4L6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-crime/china-hai... And the diplomat case is not proof of a one-sided extradition treaty; it's entirely separate from the issue of extradition. The diplomat's wife had diplomatic immunity, and therefore would have been immune to prosecution whether or not she remained in the UK. The UK had to change its laws to make criminal prosecution of her possible. Under US law, you cannot retroactively place someone under threat of criminal prosecution, so even though diplomatic immunity has been modified since then (and if the hit-and-run occurred today, she would be subject to criminal prosecution in the UK), the US probably could not legally extradite her.
    - jjgreen 6y ago
      The diplomat was not a diplomat, he was a American intelligence officer based at RAF Croughton. The letter of agreement between the Foreign Office and the US ambassador to Britain in August 1995 about the American personnel at RAF Croughton says explicitly that diplomatic immunity for people like Mr Sacoolas would not apply for "acts performed outside the course of their duties". The US has acted dishonourably in this case.

scoot_718 6y ago

Sounds like a legitimate grievance if they're going out and recruiting people to steal secrets. In fact if they can prove a money link, they just look like a branch of the FSB.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
for anyone who disagrees with US policy and considers it hostile, abusive, hypocritical (and hence a threat to their own values) ... their view could be: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And so it doesn't matter where the money comes from as long as they work on the same goal (e.g. stopping the war mongering hypocrisy that is US foreign policy). The current (dire) state of Russia after all is a failure in US foreign policy (the biggest tragedy and a massive lost opportunity in how the US handled the crumbling USSR). In Europe we have a refugee-crisis and constant debates about what to do with them. In that debate we forget that it was the US that invaded Iraq, Lybia - they are responsible for it. Sure the Wagner group is there now as well profiting the same way as US contractors. But Africom, Blackwater and every yank in a uniform are a much larger threat to peace than Russia & China combined. (regardless what nutter occupies the whitehouse)
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I blame Libya on Europe, but the point still stands.
  - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
    Europe is far from blameless in any of this. Frontex and their deal with Turkey and everything surrounding the management of the crisis is absolutely infuriating. "We" are as bad as the US for not making a stand and even enabling them.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      I have commented this here earlier this week : the EU is a trade-bloc, the rest is posturing.
      - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
        I hope EU stays a trade-bloc and everyone else considers de-escalating. I also don't trust the EU with too much power. the solution (imho) has to be peaceful - not forcing parties to spend more on defense and grandstanding.
      - marcus_holmes 6y ago
        Now that the UK is not throwing spanners into the works every time the subject comes up, we can expect a Federal Europe to appear much quicker.
        the-dude 6y ago
        You make it appear as if that would be a good thing. I disagree.
        metiscus 6y ago
        Which thing are you saying is good, the Uk stopping a federal europe or the creation of the same?
dexterdog 6y ago
Caa you steal a secret if that secret is illegal?
- naringas 6y ago
  yes, however saying "learn (a secret)" is more precise
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
Whistleblowing is not stealing (literally, in the legal sense, you’d have to prove it’s not whistleblowing in order for it to be possible to be stealing). Jumping straight to a phrase like “stealing secrets” completely skips past due process to determine if it’s whistleblowing and presumes guilt instead of innocence.
- scoot_718 6y ago
  If you're paying other people to turn, and hack to achieve access, that's not whistleblowing.
  - megous 6y ago
    Even if true, why would it not be?
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    Yes, in fact, it absolutely can be. It completely depends on the criminality of the information obtained.
    - hackinthebochs 6y ago
      Nonsense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether a crime is discovered in the stolen content. The two are not mutually exclusive.
      - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
        Nonsense. The law is extremely complex on these points and you’re trying to play semantic games with the terms “theft” and “stealing” to pretend like it’s black and white. Taking evidence due to a statutory duty to your government (reporting crimes) is not theft. You can’t just magically invoke the term “theft” and invoke tautologies like “stealing is stealing” - that’s not how any of this works. It literally does depend on whether the taken documents reveal a crime, along with other factors about how your job or normal access would bring you in contact with the materials and also if the materials taken are over broad (i.e. you wanted documents to show a pattern of sexual harassment but also took a bunch of unrelated private client data). https://www.whistleblowerllc.com/you-call-it-theft-i-call-it-evidence/ https://www.whistleblowerllc.com/you-call-it-theft-i-call-it... Given that in the case of Manning & Wikileaks, the crimes being reported (which were proven beyond all doubt) included criminal murder perpetrated systematically by US military and federal agents, as well as grand scale deception and rigging of the Democratic Primary in 2016, and shitloads of illegal torture and illegal imprisonment across Europe, the Middle East and Guantanamo, it’s also beyond dispute that the moral duty (and statutory duty for Americans involved like Manning) to release the materials was undeniable and the crimes were so sweeping and severe that no part of the taking or publishing of the documents can be considered over broad.

the-dude 6y ago

The Hague act : https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-be... Yes, we are partners in NATO. edit: 18 yrs later, it strikes me as how pre-emptive this was.

swiley 6y ago

I've heard the US has what essentially amount to a DRM on a lot of EU military equipment. Most of the west just seems really tangled up in general.

rv-de 6y ago

Appelbaum became also famous for sexually harassing women. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/27/what-you-should-know-about-the-sexual-misconduct-scandal-that-shook-the-privacy-world/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/27... https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-resigns-amid-sex-abuse-claims/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
plzbo 6y ago
> for sexually harassing women. You have to differentiate between claims made against him and what he did in reality. Most of those claims seem to be fabricated and/or were even redacted by the sources, see: https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations/komplettansicht https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexu...

fit2rule 6y ago

You are going to get downvoted into oblivion once the American contingent of HN wakes up, but before that happens I wanted to say thank you very much for making this statement: EU countries, especially Germany, France (I have less hope for Eastern-EU or Sweden) need to stop extraditions to US of A stat. Also these US terrorists dressed up as politicians need to be sanctioned (I understand this is a pipe dream) and prosecuted at the ICC (another pipe dream). It is true. The US needs to start being sanctioned for its war crimes, its crimes against humanity, and its anti-democratic behaviour. The failure of the American people to reign in their heinous war machine needs to be brought back to them. It is feet-to-the-fire time.

moneytalks 6y ago
As a US person myself, I don't really take issue with stopping extraditions because it would probably be a lot cheaper just to execute enemies abroad. Think how much money Putin has saved over the years. Now the whole Kashoggi mess shows how easy it is for this approach to backfire, so you certainly have to be careful.

romanoderoma 6y ago

> need to stop extraditions to US of A stat Extradition from EU to US is never allowed if in the US the people extradited risk the death penalty. There are discussions going about abolishing it entirely for states that support death penalty, regardless of the single case implications.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
I suppose that's not very consoling when you're staring at 30, 60 or more than 100 years in prison. The US should not have power to extradite EU citizens for the same reasons we also don't extradite people to Belarus or China. It's a one sided deal as was illustrated in the case of recent killing of a UK teen by an US diplomat: Extradition of U.S. Diplomat’s Wife Sought in U.K. Teen’s Death https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-11/extradition-of-u-s-diplomat-s-wife-sought-in-u-k-teen-s-death https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-11/extraditi... also the way US treats its prison population and allows torture (enhanced interrogation) doesn't make it better than any other banana republic. It's in no way better than China. it just has more effective propaganda.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  The US does extradite to China... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-crime/china-hails-first-fugitive-extradition-from-u-s-under-trump-idUSKBN18S4L6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-crime/china-hai... And the diplomat case is not proof of a one-sided extradition treaty; it's entirely separate from the issue of extradition. The diplomat's wife had diplomatic immunity, and therefore would have been immune to prosecution whether or not she remained in the UK. The UK had to change its laws to make criminal prosecution of her possible. Under US law, you cannot retroactively place someone under threat of criminal prosecution, so even though diplomatic immunity has been modified since then (and if the hit-and-run occurred today, she would be subject to criminal prosecution in the UK), the US probably could not legally extradite her.
  - jjgreen 6y ago
    The diplomat was not a diplomat, he was a American intelligence officer based at RAF Croughton. The letter of agreement between the Foreign Office and the US ambassador to Britain in August 1995 about the American personnel at RAF Croughton says explicitly that diplomatic immunity for people like Mr Sacoolas would not apply for "acts performed outside the course of their duties". The US has acted dishonourably in this case.