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Windows 10 telemetry, secretly turning on auto updates even after you turn it off and correct me if I am wrong, even if you disable the update service or add th

Windows 10 telemetry, secretly turning on auto updates even after you turn it off and correct me if I am wrong, even if you disable the update service or add the urls to the hosts file it now "mysteriously" undoes that stuff over time. Windows 10X will probably have some more goodies.

dx034 6y ago
I believe auto updates aren't malicious. Microsoft had a huge problem with worms infecting millions of computers that used outdated Windows version. It made Windows less secure in public opinion, even though these issues had often been fixed a long time. Forcing people to update was probably the only way to stop that. I'm also not a fan, I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it, but I guess it's one of these things that's good for 99%, the 1% is just overrepresented here.
- bzzzt 6y ago
  If you want people to accept forced updates, just send the security fixes. Don't change the UI and don't mess with the users preferences, especially concerning privacy.
  - dx034 6y ago
    Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain apart from tech people. Long reboots are annoying but overall, Windows 10 is pretty well accepted by every non-technical person I know.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Oh, the non-tech people hate it too, but what can they do? They have literally zero choice in the matter. That's the thing with tech, and that's why I consider all arguments that "people voted with their wallets" to be bullshit in this space. Most users don't understand how computers work. They don't have mental models to recognize how things should work. They have no choice but to accept whatever they're being given. Devices around them getting less ergonomic, slower, and more flashy UIs? "There are smart people building this magic, they must know what they're doing!". Their computers slowing down to the point of uselessness in the span of a year? "It must be these viruses!". Techies complain because techies understand it's all greed and laziness, and that same technology is capable of being much better than it is. I mean, ask your parents whether they like their operating system. I'll bet their answer will be a resounding "no", and you may get an earful about their general frustrations with technology. One notable moment where the dissatisfaction of masses was voiced in unison was the forced Windows 8 to Windows 10 upgrade. You didn't have to have any sophisticated mental model there to recognize you're being made to do something bad for you against your will.
    - selfhoster11 6y ago
      That's because people expect technology to suck[0]. Users can be unhappy, even if they don't realise it. [0] https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2020/09/22/people-expect-technology-to-suck/ https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2020/09/22/people-expect-t...
    - swebs 6y ago
      Because non-technical people probably don't even know they have a choice in the matter. Macs are too expensive and they've probably never heard of Linux.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      What are you talking about? Non-tech people complain all the time about it. Updates deciding to run right before you have to give a critical presentation is a meme at this point. All this "well, users are stupid so it is ok to treat them like garbage" nonsense is part of the reason I've come to fucking hate IT. I wish all of you who think that way would go away.
      - Shared404 6y ago
        Out of curiosity, would you mind if there were forced updates for security only? I'm mostly very strongly opposed to forced updates, but things like WannaCry make me understand the viewpoint for forcing security upgrades. I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to better work out my own views on the topic.
    - pmontra 6y ago
      A friend of mine uses his PC only in the weekends (he uses the company's PC during the week) and hates Windows because every time it takes hours to download and install updates over his slow ADSL (I think there is no fast Internet there.) He has to remember to turn the PC on in the morning to use it in the afternoon. If he forgets, next weekend. Of course he could turn it on Friday night but the user experience is still really bad.
      - gigel82 6y ago
        That makes no sense, I never had Windows block waiting to download updates and not let me use the computer.
        rightbyte 6y ago
        It swamps the connection.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      I work at a repair shop, and like clockwork, we get non tech people complain about windows updates breaking their stuff.
- WillAdams 6y ago
  Yeah, but when Fall Creators Update cripples pen functionality to the point that I assumed it was a bug and rolled back: http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/threads/fall-creators-update-1709-issues.73088/ http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/threads/fall-creators-update... and there's no way for me to use my machine as I purchased it (Samsung Galaxy Book 12 bundled w/ a Staedtler Noris Digital Stylus) and I've had to roll back an un-asked for upgrade since, the bottom line is Microsoft needs to completely decouple the OS layer where the security updates occur, from the UI layer. If I pay for a system with an active stylus, I don't want it to be dumbed down to an 11th touch input which scrolls and won't select text or interact w/ the system as I've been accustomed to since Windows for Pen Computing.
- alxlaz 6y ago
  Unfortunately, Microsoft also has a trust problem with updates. Back in Windows XP era, there was no question about whether you wanted to upgrade to SP2 or not -- you'd maybe wait for a few days/weeks to make sure no major bugs were in, but there was no need to force anything. Today, you might run an upgrade and reboot to find a more secure operating system -- or a full-screen Edge ad, with Edge being immediately auto-started afterwards and re-pinned on the taskbar. (Guess who had to drive across town in the middle of the Covid-19 lockdown because one of their parents had to teach an online class and couldn't open Firefox anymore. Yep.) It's a hole that Microsoft dug themselves in, and long before Windows 10, and instead of doing anything to dig themselves out of it, they just dragged everyone else down. It solves the problem -- nobody's claiming it doesn't -- but it's not something that should be defended for technical or usability reasons, it's the worst solution that happens to still work, more or less.
  - dx034 6y ago
    But you experience the same when you login to GMail and it has a new interface or your Phone looks different in the morning because of iOS/Android updates. Users are so used to be annoyed that updates disrupt UX, Microsoft isn't an especially bad actor here. In the end, users tend to disable updates as a response which is bad for security and makes vendors force them to update. Maybe not "improving" UX with every release would be a solution but there are very few companies that stick with their UX for many years, redesigns are way too easy to sell as a new feature.
    - krageon 6y ago
      I don't think it is sufficient to justify bad choices because everyone is making them. Especially in the case of an os, which is a lot more critical than the Gmail web interface or something similar.
    - alxlaz 6y ago
      A long time ago, I had a GEOS installation that used to reliably crash every Sunday at 12 PM. Should mandatory reboots every Sunday at 12 PM be introduced in a future Windows update? I mean, someone else has done it before. If you do it every second Sunday it's even better, Microsoft wouldn't be an especially bad actor here. The fact that other companies are even worse doesn't make this any better. For any program that has a bug, I guarantee there are thousand other programs with even worse bugs. Pointing fingers and returning EWONTFIX may fly for some FOSS projects, where maintainers can at least claim that if you want a fix in open-source software that you didn't pay for you should fix it yourself, but it's a pretty ridiculous stance if you have paying customers.
- gruturo 6y ago
  I don't have a problem with forced security fixes. I DO have a problem with forced updates which are completely unrelated to security, install thinly veiled ads disguised as apps, break existing functionality, change my browser/PDF reader preferences, occasionally brick the whole machine. Also I have a huge problem with so much of this crap needing a reboot. Reengineer the damn thing so it doesn't in 99% of cases.
  - themaninthedark 6y ago
    How many forced Windows 10 updates have bricked peoples computers? Just looking at the dates after googling has dates from '18, '19 and '20. So at least once a year. On an OS that has been out for 5 years now. Do I control my computer or not? If I do then I should be able to control what happens when.
    - gigel82 6y ago
      You control your computer, turn off updates, get malware, then come back and complain how M$ / Windows is crap. I really don't understand why so many people in this thread are actively complaining about not being able to turn off updates. It's like once a month and they give you advance notice and "pick a time"; you have a whole week to choose a good time to restart and apply some updates...
      - stjohnswarts 6y ago
        Because the user should be in control, no microsoft.
        gruturo 6y ago
        I'm actually OK with Microsoft being in control of security patching cadence. Too many people are simply unable, unqualified or unwilling to do the job themselves, and when there's millions of them, you get botnets. I don't like the loss of choice, but I readily admit it's a necessary evil. But they should do much better QA and not brick anyone's PC ever, and absolutely NOT ship anything which isn't strictly security-related in this undeferrable-unskippable security patches channel.
- johnisgood 6y ago
  I do not like the idea of not being able to control my personal computer and wasting my time because of updates that may or may not break crap, that may or may not reset some settings. Ugh.
- imtringued 6y ago
  >I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it That means you have been spared. For me "getting burned" means endless boot loops and reinstalling windows. Windows updates have bricked my system on every version of windows so far. Windows Vista, 7, 10. Their updates all suck. Yes, I'm one of those "stupid" people who installed updates as soon as possible. No more bullshit. I'm using Linux now.

dx034 6y ago

I believe auto updates aren't malicious. Microsoft had a huge problem with worms infecting millions of computers that used outdated Windows version. It made Windows less secure in public opinion, even though these issues had often been fixed a long time. Forcing people to update was probably the only way to stop that. I'm also not a fan, I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it, but I guess it's one of these things that's good for 99%, the 1% is just overrepresented here.

bzzzt 6y ago
If you want people to accept forced updates, just send the security fixes. Don't change the UI and don't mess with the users preferences, especially concerning privacy.
- dx034 6y ago
  Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain apart from tech people. Long reboots are annoying but overall, Windows 10 is pretty well accepted by every non-technical person I know.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Oh, the non-tech people hate it too, but what can they do? They have literally zero choice in the matter. That's the thing with tech, and that's why I consider all arguments that "people voted with their wallets" to be bullshit in this space. Most users don't understand how computers work. They don't have mental models to recognize how things should work. They have no choice but to accept whatever they're being given. Devices around them getting less ergonomic, slower, and more flashy UIs? "There are smart people building this magic, they must know what they're doing!". Their computers slowing down to the point of uselessness in the span of a year? "It must be these viruses!". Techies complain because techies understand it's all greed and laziness, and that same technology is capable of being much better than it is. I mean, ask your parents whether they like their operating system. I'll bet their answer will be a resounding "no", and you may get an earful about their general frustrations with technology. One notable moment where the dissatisfaction of masses was voiced in unison was the forced Windows 8 to Windows 10 upgrade. You didn't have to have any sophisticated mental model there to recognize you're being made to do something bad for you against your will.
  - selfhoster11 6y ago
    That's because people expect technology to suck[0]. Users can be unhappy, even if they don't realise it. [0] https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2020/09/22/people-expect-technology-to-suck/ https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2020/09/22/people-expect-t...
  - swebs 6y ago
    Because non-technical people probably don't even know they have a choice in the matter. Macs are too expensive and they've probably never heard of Linux.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    What are you talking about? Non-tech people complain all the time about it. Updates deciding to run right before you have to give a critical presentation is a meme at this point. All this "well, users are stupid so it is ok to treat them like garbage" nonsense is part of the reason I've come to fucking hate IT. I wish all of you who think that way would go away.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      Out of curiosity, would you mind if there were forced updates for security only? I'm mostly very strongly opposed to forced updates, but things like WannaCry make me understand the viewpoint for forcing security upgrades. I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to better work out my own views on the topic.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    A friend of mine uses his PC only in the weekends (he uses the company's PC during the week) and hates Windows because every time it takes hours to download and install updates over his slow ADSL (I think there is no fast Internet there.) He has to remember to turn the PC on in the morning to use it in the afternoon. If he forgets, next weekend. Of course he could turn it on Friday night but the user experience is still really bad.
    - gigel82 6y ago
      That makes no sense, I never had Windows block waiting to download updates and not let me use the computer.
      - rightbyte 6y ago
        It swamps the connection.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    I work at a repair shop, and like clockwork, we get non tech people complain about windows updates breaking their stuff.
WillAdams 6y ago
Yeah, but when Fall Creators Update cripples pen functionality to the point that I assumed it was a bug and rolled back: http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/threads/fall-creators-update-1709-issues.73088/ http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/threads/fall-creators-update... and there's no way for me to use my machine as I purchased it (Samsung Galaxy Book 12 bundled w/ a Staedtler Noris Digital Stylus) and I've had to roll back an un-asked for upgrade since, the bottom line is Microsoft needs to completely decouple the OS layer where the security updates occur, from the UI layer. If I pay for a system with an active stylus, I don't want it to be dumbed down to an 11th touch input which scrolls and won't select text or interact w/ the system as I've been accustomed to since Windows for Pen Computing.
alxlaz 6y ago
Unfortunately, Microsoft also has a trust problem with updates. Back in Windows XP era, there was no question about whether you wanted to upgrade to SP2 or not -- you'd maybe wait for a few days/weeks to make sure no major bugs were in, but there was no need to force anything. Today, you might run an upgrade and reboot to find a more secure operating system -- or a full-screen Edge ad, with Edge being immediately auto-started afterwards and re-pinned on the taskbar. (Guess who had to drive across town in the middle of the Covid-19 lockdown because one of their parents had to teach an online class and couldn't open Firefox anymore. Yep.) It's a hole that Microsoft dug themselves in, and long before Windows 10, and instead of doing anything to dig themselves out of it, they just dragged everyone else down. It solves the problem -- nobody's claiming it doesn't -- but it's not something that should be defended for technical or usability reasons, it's the worst solution that happens to still work, more or less.
- dx034 6y ago
  But you experience the same when you login to GMail and it has a new interface or your Phone looks different in the morning because of iOS/Android updates. Users are so used to be annoyed that updates disrupt UX, Microsoft isn't an especially bad actor here. In the end, users tend to disable updates as a response which is bad for security and makes vendors force them to update. Maybe not "improving" UX with every release would be a solution but there are very few companies that stick with their UX for many years, redesigns are way too easy to sell as a new feature.
  - krageon 6y ago
    I don't think it is sufficient to justify bad choices because everyone is making them. Especially in the case of an os, which is a lot more critical than the Gmail web interface or something similar.
  - alxlaz 6y ago
    A long time ago, I had a GEOS installation that used to reliably crash every Sunday at 12 PM. Should mandatory reboots every Sunday at 12 PM be introduced in a future Windows update? I mean, someone else has done it before. If you do it every second Sunday it's even better, Microsoft wouldn't be an especially bad actor here. The fact that other companies are even worse doesn't make this any better. For any program that has a bug, I guarantee there are thousand other programs with even worse bugs. Pointing fingers and returning EWONTFIX may fly for some FOSS projects, where maintainers can at least claim that if you want a fix in open-source software that you didn't pay for you should fix it yourself, but it's a pretty ridiculous stance if you have paying customers.
gruturo 6y ago
I don't have a problem with forced security fixes. I DO have a problem with forced updates which are completely unrelated to security, install thinly veiled ads disguised as apps, break existing functionality, change my browser/PDF reader preferences, occasionally brick the whole machine. Also I have a huge problem with so much of this crap needing a reboot. Reengineer the damn thing so it doesn't in 99% of cases.
- themaninthedark 6y ago
  How many forced Windows 10 updates have bricked peoples computers? Just looking at the dates after googling has dates from '18, '19 and '20. So at least once a year. On an OS that has been out for 5 years now. Do I control my computer or not? If I do then I should be able to control what happens when.
  - gigel82 6y ago
    You control your computer, turn off updates, get malware, then come back and complain how M$ / Windows is crap. I really don't understand why so many people in this thread are actively complaining about not being able to turn off updates. It's like once a month and they give you advance notice and "pick a time"; you have a whole week to choose a good time to restart and apply some updates...
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      Because the user should be in control, no microsoft.
      - gruturo 6y ago
        I'm actually OK with Microsoft being in control of security patching cadence. Too many people are simply unable, unqualified or unwilling to do the job themselves, and when there's millions of them, you get botnets. I don't like the loss of choice, but I readily admit it's a necessary evil. But they should do much better QA and not brick anyone's PC ever, and absolutely NOT ship anything which isn't strictly security-related in this undeferrable-unskippable security patches channel.
johnisgood 6y ago
I do not like the idea of not being able to control my personal computer and wasting my time because of updates that may or may not break crap, that may or may not reset some settings. Ugh.
imtringued 6y ago
>I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it That means you have been spared. For me "getting burned" means endless boot loops and reinstalling windows. Windows updates have bricked my system on every version of windows so far. Windows Vista, 7, 10. Their updates all suck. Yes, I'm one of those "stupid" people who installed updates as soon as possible. No more bullshit. I'm using Linux now.