9 ms·

> proprietary operating systems to be actively working against you Where is this happening ? Are we expecting this now ? What did I miss

jononor 6y ago
The amount of user data collected in Windows 10 for example. Next to no user benefits, just value extracted for Microsoft. Automatic updates on reboot. For example when someone giving a presentation or class has to restart their computer for some reason (quite common in Windows still, or one just ran out of power). Boot up the computer, people waiting impatiently - and then have to wait for 5-30 minutes for the computer to finish updates before being able to use it. No way to cancel/post-pone, no time-estimates for when it will be done.
- rblatz 6y ago
  I go months without needing to reboot windows, and have for over a decade. Typically if I need to reboot it’s due to an update or software that requires a reboot to install.
  - sdfqasdghj 6y ago
    How? When I last used Windows it forced a reboot to do updates once a month. If I let it pick the time it was often a bad time.
    - toyg 6y ago
      To be fair, that's typically a policy enforced by administrators: "patch X should be force-installed if not present by Date Y" + "reboot should be forced if not happening after Z days from patching" => "reboot will happen at Date Y + Z, regardless of user's wishes".
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      O&O ShutUP 10. It will let you disable the automatic update nonsense (along with a bunch of other nonsense).
    - rvba 6y ago
      I dont use Windows much, but you can go to services and disable Windows the update service and.. in the Wifi settings check a box that says you have a limited connection.
    - ksk 6y ago
      Unfortunately, this is not possible on their consumer OS branch (unless you hack the system, but I have found that it often makes the OS unstable because its in an unsupported system state). For me, our IT manages the systems. They get to decide when the systems update. I have a test box that regularly sees months of uptime. https://i.imgur.com/XN2Hjia.png https://i.imgur.com/XN2Hjia.png
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    The bigger issue, I think, I really having to restart just to update minor things i.e. what linux distro needs to restart just to update (the equivalent of) visual studio
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  Unpopular opinion but: telemetrics help developers prioritize stuff and triage bugs. From a user’s point of view, isn’t that a substantial benefit?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Telemetrics are frequently inaccurate, sometimes to the point they paint a picture are interpreted in a a way that’s the opposite of reality. Windows telemetry in particular is not nice because it’s not really possible to turn off on the lower editions and it also does not seem to translate to benefits–especially as around the time of its inclusion word got out that Microsoft was cutting a large portion of their QA team.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      > especially as around the time of its inclusion word got out that Microsoft was cutting a large portion of their QA team. Or telemetry made it way simpler.
    - ksk 6y ago
      What are you basing this on? Are you talking about Windows or just random telemetry?
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        The first statement was general, the second is specific to Windows.
  - krageon 6y ago
    Very good software was written before people that think like you were taken seriously. Clearly it is not necessary.
    - Hackbraten 6y ago
      You know you can disagree with me while still respecting my opinion? Also, beneficial does not imply necessary.
- s_gourichon 6y ago
  Indeed, Windows update delaying a reboot at a wrong time can affect real world events. See this example from 2015: [German pro basketball team relegated to lower division due to Windows update | Ars Technica](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/german-pro-basketball-team-relegated-to-lower-division-due-to-windows-update/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/germa...) > "But as both teams warmed up, the computer crashed," he said. "When we booted it again at 7:20pm, it started automatically downloading updates. But we did not initiate anything." > After all the updates were installed, Paderborn was ready to start the game at 7:55pm. > But then Chemnitz formally protested, saying that because Paderborn had delayed the start time of the match by 25 minutes (instead of the 15-minute maximum as allowed under the German basketball rules), they should be penalized. As a result, Paderborn lost another point (Google Translate) in the standings, according to a Basketball Budesliga press release, which meant that it would certainly be relegated to the "ProB" league of German pro basketball.
- oblio 6y ago
  The telemetry is shady but the automatic updates are a... necessary evil. People would delay updates for MONTHS by clicking that postpone button. Windows is by design meant to be used by not very computer literate people and unfortunately these kinds of users need to be forced to do the right thing sometimes. As they said back in the day: "the user will do everything possible to see the dancing bears, including downloading that toolbar, installing that gizmo, disabling security settings". People smugly complain about this, in many cases from their Linux box (= technical users on a system with a 1% desktop market share => smaller target and better human protection) or MacOS box (= slightly more technical users than the average Windows user, on a system with a 5%-10% desktop market share).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Da, it is for your own good comrade! I really wish people who insist on claiming some right to control how users use their own computers would leave IT forever.
    - reflectiv 6y ago
      And if it were left open ended at the request of people like you...we'd still have compromised systems out there spread amongst normal people as well as within infrastructure and other more critical pieces of hardware. People cannot be trusted to upgrade. It REALLY IS good to force people to upgrade.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > People cannot be trusted to upgrade. It REALLY IS good to force people to upgrade. The very idea that users should be at the mercy of their computers instead of the other way around is contrary to the concept of personal computing. People like you are why I hate IT these days. You seem to think that because you have some specialized knowledge about computers that you're smarter than everyone who doesn't. You're totally willing to sacrifice hours of peoples lives, ruin their projects, and break their systems in the name of "I know better". It doesn't matter what they're doing, or how important it is to their lives, what matters is what you think is important.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  To be fair it asks to update or not to update. You can also set how often it does check and when it installs (at night). It's just a google search away.
asveikau 6y ago
Windows 10 is a resource hog and contains adware. macOS ... Is special. Some of the most notable changes in the last few years have been to try to restrict what an app can do.
- dx034 6y ago
  I agree with Spyware but resource hog? Everyday performance is certainly better than on earlier Windows versions.
  - asveikau 6y ago
    My experience is that windows 10 spends more time on scanning for viruses and serving ads than useful work. Maybe your experience is different.
    - gigel82 6y ago
      It sounds like you got infected with adware. Maybe next time... don't turn off the updates? :)
- spdionis 6y ago
  So you're telling me that macOS is more performant than Windows 10? Have you used both? Do you not feel the delay in every mouse click you do in macOS that is so maddening after coming from Windows? Both the UI lag and general performance in macOS is just a sad story. My windows machine runs 24/7 for months without needing a restart. I am forced to restart macOS weekly, usually because of system issues.
  - spacekitcat 6y ago
    I don't share your experiences. I'm a developer on Windows and OSX, so I have MacBook Pro and a ThinkPad. I want to run the ThinkPad over with a car and then drop it in the sea.
  - pcdoodle 6y ago
    MacOS is far better. This mouse click delay you're talking about, is in your head.
bisby 6y ago
yes. most of the things I see about windows vs linux involve "well you can just turn all the spyware stuff off, all you have to do is dive into these 10 menus and flip these switches" "Its easy to disable the ads in the start menu" etc etc. Even if you can turn the stuff off, the fact that you have to feels a lot like the OS working against the user.
- ce4 6y ago
  And the next update may reset some of them. The Edge update comes to mind that had reset the browser preference presumably to be able to push edge again.
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    Because that's how installing software works on Windows. You install a new program which can open JPGs, it's not allowed to grab control of all JPGs unilaterally. Instead it registers itself as a handler of JPGs. Next time you try to open one, Windows prompts you "you have a new program which can do X, what do you want to use?" and you get to keep your old one, or choose the new one, once or every time. Get a new browser installed, prompt for your choice of browser. This is an improvement to "get Edge installed, have Edge take over everything silently" and an improvement on "I installed a thing and it doesn't do anything, where is it", and an improvement on "IE 11 for eternity".
    - bisby 6y ago
      after the edge update, when i started my computer, edge opened itself and forced me through a "first run" mini tutorial thing that i couldnt skip or ignore. it wasn't even a "you have a new program" prompt, it was a "YOU ARE USING EDGE NOW". one of the updates most certainly was not just a mime handler update. They pushed a new edge (when they swapped to chromium) and rather than leave people with old edge as their browser, they just flat out set new edge as your browser without checking what you had otherwise, and set it to auto run on your next boot.
- stnmtn 6y ago
Answerawake 6y ago
Windows 10 telemetry, secretly turning on auto updates even after you turn it off and correct me if I am wrong, even if you disable the update service or add the urls to the hosts file it now "mysteriously" undoes that stuff over time. Windows 10X will probably have some more goodies.
- dx034 6y ago
  I believe auto updates aren't malicious. Microsoft had a huge problem with worms infecting millions of computers that used outdated Windows version. It made Windows less secure in public opinion, even though these issues had often been fixed a long time. Forcing people to update was probably the only way to stop that. I'm also not a fan, I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it, but I guess it's one of these things that's good for 99%, the 1% is just overrepresented here.
  - bzzzt 6y ago
    If you want people to accept forced updates, just send the security fixes. Don't change the UI and don't mess with the users preferences, especially concerning privacy.
    - dx034 6y ago
      Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain apart from tech people. Long reboots are annoying but overall, Windows 10 is pretty well accepted by every non-technical person I know.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        Oh, the non-tech people hate it too, but what can they do? They have literally zero choice in the matter. That's the thing with tech, and that's why I consider all arguments that "people voted with their wallets" to be bullshit in this space. Most users don't understand how computers work. They don't have mental models to recognize how things should work. They have no choice but to accept whatever they're being given. Devices around them getting less ergonomic, slower, and more flashy UIs? "There are smart people building this magic, they must know what they're doing!". Their computers slowing down to the point of uselessness in the span of a year? "It must be these viruses!". Techies complain because techies understand it's all greed and laziness, and that same technology is capable of being much better than it is. I mean, ask your parents whether they like their operating system. I'll bet their answer will be a resounding "no", and you may get an earful about their general frustrations with technology. One notable moment where the dissatisfaction of masses was voiced in unison was the forced Windows 8 to Windows 10 upgrade. You didn't have to have any sophisticated mental model there to recognize you're being made to do something bad for you against your will.

jononor 6y ago

The amount of user data collected in Windows 10 for example. Next to no user benefits, just value extracted for Microsoft. Automatic updates on reboot. For example when someone giving a presentation or class has to restart their computer for some reason (quite common in Windows still, or one just ran out of power). Boot up the computer, people waiting impatiently - and then have to wait for 5-30 minutes for the computer to finish updates before being able to use it. No way to cancel/post-pone, no time-estimates for when it will be done.

rblatz 6y ago
I go months without needing to reboot windows, and have for over a decade. Typically if I need to reboot it’s due to an update or software that requires a reboot to install.
- sdfqasdghj 6y ago
  How? When I last used Windows it forced a reboot to do updates once a month. If I let it pick the time it was often a bad time.
  - toyg 6y ago
    To be fair, that's typically a policy enforced by administrators: "patch X should be force-installed if not present by Date Y" + "reboot should be forced if not happening after Z days from patching" => "reboot will happen at Date Y + Z, regardless of user's wishes".
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    O&O ShutUP 10. It will let you disable the automatic update nonsense (along with a bunch of other nonsense).
  - rvba 6y ago
    I dont use Windows much, but you can go to services and disable Windows the update service and.. in the Wifi settings check a box that says you have a limited connection.
  - ksk 6y ago
    Unfortunately, this is not possible on their consumer OS branch (unless you hack the system, but I have found that it often makes the OS unstable because its in an unsupported system state). For me, our IT manages the systems. They get to decide when the systems update. I have a test box that regularly sees months of uptime. https://i.imgur.com/XN2Hjia.png https://i.imgur.com/XN2Hjia.png
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The bigger issue, I think, I really having to restart just to update minor things i.e. what linux distro needs to restart just to update (the equivalent of) visual studio
Hackbraten 6y ago
Unpopular opinion but: telemetrics help developers prioritize stuff and triage bugs. From a user’s point of view, isn’t that a substantial benefit?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Telemetrics are frequently inaccurate, sometimes to the point they paint a picture are interpreted in a a way that’s the opposite of reality. Windows telemetry in particular is not nice because it’s not really possible to turn off on the lower editions and it also does not seem to translate to benefits–especially as around the time of its inclusion word got out that Microsoft was cutting a large portion of their QA team.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    > especially as around the time of its inclusion word got out that Microsoft was cutting a large portion of their QA team. Or telemetry made it way simpler.
  - ksk 6y ago
    What are you basing this on? Are you talking about Windows or just random telemetry?
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      The first statement was general, the second is specific to Windows.
- krageon 6y ago
  Very good software was written before people that think like you were taken seriously. Clearly it is not necessary.
  - Hackbraten 6y ago
    You know you can disagree with me while still respecting my opinion? Also, beneficial does not imply necessary.
s_gourichon 6y ago
Indeed, Windows update delaying a reboot at a wrong time can affect real world events. See this example from 2015: [German pro basketball team relegated to lower division due to Windows update | Ars Technica](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/german-pro-basketball-team-relegated-to-lower-division-due-to-windows-update/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/germa...) > "But as both teams warmed up, the computer crashed," he said. "When we booted it again at 7:20pm, it started automatically downloading updates. But we did not initiate anything." > After all the updates were installed, Paderborn was ready to start the game at 7:55pm. > But then Chemnitz formally protested, saying that because Paderborn had delayed the start time of the match by 25 minutes (instead of the 15-minute maximum as allowed under the German basketball rules), they should be penalized. As a result, Paderborn lost another point (Google Translate) in the standings, according to a Basketball Budesliga press release, which meant that it would certainly be relegated to the "ProB" league of German pro basketball.
oblio 6y ago
The telemetry is shady but the automatic updates are a... necessary evil. People would delay updates for MONTHS by clicking that postpone button. Windows is by design meant to be used by not very computer literate people and unfortunately these kinds of users need to be forced to do the right thing sometimes. As they said back in the day: "the user will do everything possible to see the dancing bears, including downloading that toolbar, installing that gizmo, disabling security settings". People smugly complain about this, in many cases from their Linux box (= technical users on a system with a 1% desktop market share => smaller target and better human protection) or MacOS box (= slightly more technical users than the average Windows user, on a system with a 5%-10% desktop market share).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Da, it is for your own good comrade! I really wish people who insist on claiming some right to control how users use their own computers would leave IT forever.
  - reflectiv 6y ago
    And if it were left open ended at the request of people like you...we'd still have compromised systems out there spread amongst normal people as well as within infrastructure and other more critical pieces of hardware. People cannot be trusted to upgrade. It REALLY IS good to force people to upgrade.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      > People cannot be trusted to upgrade. It REALLY IS good to force people to upgrade. The very idea that users should be at the mercy of their computers instead of the other way around is contrary to the concept of personal computing. People like you are why I hate IT these days. You seem to think that because you have some specialized knowledge about computers that you're smarter than everyone who doesn't. You're totally willing to sacrifice hours of peoples lives, ruin their projects, and break their systems in the name of "I know better". It doesn't matter what they're doing, or how important it is to their lives, what matters is what you think is important.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
To be fair it asks to update or not to update. You can also set how often it does check and when it installs (at night). It's just a google search away.

asveikau 6y ago

Windows 10 is a resource hog and contains adware. macOS ... Is special. Some of the most notable changes in the last few years have been to try to restrict what an app can do.

dx034 6y ago
I agree with Spyware but resource hog? Everyday performance is certainly better than on earlier Windows versions.
- asveikau 6y ago
  My experience is that windows 10 spends more time on scanning for viruses and serving ads than useful work. Maybe your experience is different.
  - gigel82 6y ago
    It sounds like you got infected with adware. Maybe next time... don't turn off the updates? :)
spdionis 6y ago
So you're telling me that macOS is more performant than Windows 10? Have you used both? Do you not feel the delay in every mouse click you do in macOS that is so maddening after coming from Windows? Both the UI lag and general performance in macOS is just a sad story. My windows machine runs 24/7 for months without needing a restart. I am forced to restart macOS weekly, usually because of system issues.
- spacekitcat 6y ago
  I don't share your experiences. I'm a developer on Windows and OSX, so I have MacBook Pro and a ThinkPad. I want to run the ThinkPad over with a car and then drop it in the sea.
- pcdoodle 6y ago
  MacOS is far better. This mouse click delay you're talking about, is in your head.

bisby 6y ago

yes. most of the things I see about windows vs linux involve "well you can just turn all the spyware stuff off, all you have to do is dive into these 10 menus and flip these switches" "Its easy to disable the ads in the start menu" etc etc. Even if you can turn the stuff off, the fact that you have to feels a lot like the OS working against the user.

ce4 6y ago
And the next update may reset some of them. The Edge update comes to mind that had reset the browser preference presumably to be able to push edge again.
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Because that's how installing software works on Windows. You install a new program which can open JPGs, it's not allowed to grab control of all JPGs unilaterally. Instead it registers itself as a handler of JPGs. Next time you try to open one, Windows prompts you "you have a new program which can do X, what do you want to use?" and you get to keep your old one, or choose the new one, once or every time. Get a new browser installed, prompt for your choice of browser. This is an improvement to "get Edge installed, have Edge take over everything silently" and an improvement on "I installed a thing and it doesn't do anything, where is it", and an improvement on "IE 11 for eternity".
  - bisby 6y ago
    after the edge update, when i started my computer, edge opened itself and forced me through a "first run" mini tutorial thing that i couldnt skip or ignore. it wasn't even a "you have a new program" prompt, it was a "YOU ARE USING EDGE NOW". one of the updates most certainly was not just a mime handler update. They pushed a new edge (when they swapped to chromium) and rather than leave people with old edge as their browser, they just flat out set new edge as your browser without checking what you had otherwise, and set it to auto run on your next boot.
stnmtn 6y ago

Answerawake 6y ago

Windows 10 telemetry, secretly turning on auto updates even after you turn it off and correct me if I am wrong, even if you disable the update service or add the urls to the hosts file it now "mysteriously" undoes that stuff over time. Windows 10X will probably have some more goodies.

dx034 6y ago
I believe auto updates aren't malicious. Microsoft had a huge problem with worms infecting millions of computers that used outdated Windows version. It made Windows less secure in public opinion, even though these issues had often been fixed a long time. Forcing people to update was probably the only way to stop that. I'm also not a fan, I got burned at least once by a Windows 10 computer restarting in the middle of the night when I had programs running on it, but I guess it's one of these things that's good for 99%, the 1% is just overrepresented here.
- bzzzt 6y ago
  If you want people to accept forced updates, just send the security fixes. Don't change the UI and don't mess with the users preferences, especially concerning privacy.
  - dx034 6y ago
    Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain apart from tech people. Long reboots are annoying but overall, Windows 10 is pretty well accepted by every non-technical person I know.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Oh, the non-tech people hate it too, but what can they do? They have literally zero choice in the matter. That's the thing with tech, and that's why I consider all arguments that "people voted with their wallets" to be bullshit in this space. Most users don't understand how computers work. They don't have mental models to recognize how things should work. They have no choice but to accept whatever they're being given. Devices around them getting less ergonomic, slower, and more flashy UIs? "There are smart people building this magic, they must know what they're doing!". Their computers slowing down to the point of uselessness in the span of a year? "It must be these viruses!". Techies complain because techies understand it's all greed and laziness, and that same technology is capable of being much better than it is. I mean, ask your parents whether they like their operating system. I'll bet their answer will be a resounding "no", and you may get an earful about their general frustrations with technology. One notable moment where the dissatisfaction of masses was voiced in unison was the forced Windows 8 to Windows 10 upgrade. You didn't have to have any sophisticated mental model there to recognize you're being made to do something bad for you against your will.