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> crows know what they know and can ponder the content of their own minds, a manifestation of higher intelligence and analytical thought long believed the sole

> crows know what they know and can ponder the content of their own minds, a manifestation of higher intelligence and analytical thought long believed the sole province of humans and a few other higher mammals. I've always found the common thought that only humans and a select few of other animals are the only ones that posses higher intelligence to be incredibly arrogant of our species. Why wouldn't they have higher intelligence? As far as I can tell, it's because there's no simple test that could be applied to confirm or deny whether higher intelligence exists within an animal, so we then jump to the conclusion "Because I can't prove that they do have higher intelligence, then they must not have higher intelligence" - logic doesn't work that way! Glad to see some people are willing to dig a little deeper and take the time to show that crows do have this capability.

saagarjha 6y ago
Perhaps it’s humans that lack the higher intelligence that would allow them to understand that other species may also be intelligent.
- maxbond 6y ago
  I believe it's something like the adage, "it's difficult to make someone understand something their paycheck depends on their not understanding." Think about people who will tell you lobsters can't feel pain while they're rattling in a pot. The idea we are the only intelligent species, and that everything around us exists only to be exploited for our benefit, is quite convenient. Edited to add: I think this is also related to the way tech companies view their users. They aren't humans with needs to be fulfilled, they're a resource to be extracted. More a coal mine than a customer. (Not to lob a grenade into the discussion, I just found it relevant.)
- osrec 6y ago
  I think it might be quite the opposite. Our highly developed minds/egos sometimes cloud our ability to see reality as it is, and often make us believe that we are more/less special or gifted than others.
- vmception 6y ago
  There is very consistent supporting information to explore that thought further. We rely too heavily on structured vocal responses to determine intelligence. On top of that we rely on observing erroneous unnecessary behavior to consider something might be thinking. This could be a real limitation of us as a species.
- hinkley 6y ago
  I don't think it's intelligence, but humility. We are (hopefully) transitioning through an era where being a conqueror is less successful than collaboration. But there are way too many of us who are less than seven generations separated from conquerors. Conquerors bank on exclusiveness, not inclusiveness. We're still trying to convince each other that all the humans deserve to be in the Humanity Club. If we can't hack that, then who is going to want to talk about cetaceans and chimpanzees and corvids?
novok 6y ago
Humans were effective in their intelligence and rule the world with it, no other animal has shown anything approaching something like that. You judge them by their results.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  That's not a measure of our intelligence, only our ambition and aggression. The two may not even be correlated.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    So crows could build a jumbo jet, they're just lazy? It's pretty obvious that animals lack any type of intelligence even close to human ability. It's not even in the same ballpark.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      See, there's your arrogance again. They may have no interest in doing so or anything leading up to it and desire is not a measure of intelligence.
      - missedthecue 6y ago
        OK, so how about the fact that they haven't figured out how to heal broken bones? Is that my arrogance again, or is it that they would just prefer to flop on the ground until nightfall and then be eaten alive by coyotes?
        ElFitz 6y ago
        And how are crows supposed to defend wounded fellows from coyotes? Or carry them to safety? How about the fact they can apparently build compound tools from parts? Your example isn't just about brains. It requires both proper bodies and arguably complex social behaviors, which are quite separate from intelligence itself.
1123581321 6y ago
Well, that reasoning is your wording alone. The reason scientists do not optimistically assert animals must have human-analogous intelligence is because of the difficulty required to design a test that will reveal traces of it.
JackFr 6y ago
Consider the Turing Test, not as a goal for AI, but rather the working definition of intelligence. Put another way, game knows game.
ta1234567890 6y ago
Because then it's easier to justify enslaving or killing them. Mostly we just don't even want to know.
davidgerard 6y ago
Historically, humans have frequently tried to claim other groups of humans aren't really intelligent, so ...
V-2 6y ago
High intelligence isn't just a blessing. There are serious evolutionary costs associated (such as, for one, longer childhood). Evolution patterns follow the adage "use it or lose it", so if a species doesn't show signs of benefiting from higher intelligence, why should we assume that it's there? Why would natural selection maintain this trait if there was no obvious payback?
- kyuudou 6y ago
  > High intelligence isn't just a blessing. Not only that, mental illness correlates strongly with higher IQ: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/link-between-intelligence-and-mental-illness1.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human... Perhaps that's why I frequently see links about depression, bipolar etc on HN... I read so many comments about "I got burned out coding 15 hour days and then I got diagnosed with major depression and my life's been a wreck since and no one will hire me" sort of themes!
ARandomerDude 6y ago
It's not like the idea is arbitrary. Have you ever seen a giraffe build a car, or even a skateboard? We don't assume superior intelligence, we observe it.
kobe_bryant 6y ago
all you have to do is watch a nature documentary to see many different animal species reason, work together and have emotional reactions which shows that they have a sense of self and thus a consciousness
ekianjo 6y ago
> Why wouldn't they have higher intelligence? Because almost no other animal appears to think ahead of time , master fire, build tools that did not exist before? You can come up with numerous explanations as to why it's that, but what one's species' brain can come up with will be a serious constraint as well.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  > think ahead of time The angry, injured tiger that killed its hunter by stalking his house and planning an ambush comes to mind https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551459 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551... > master fire, Nothing comes to mind but I would not rule out some kind of animal using fire for some purpose > build tools that did not exist before A number of species have been shown to construct tools to make their labor easier. "That didn't exist before" is a little difficult to pin down as animal communities are hyperlocal.
  - V-2 6y ago
    Regarding the tiger - that's a fascinating story, but it's worth noting that the article stresses "it was anything but typical" and that "in living memory, there was no record of an incident like this".
  - kyuudou 6y ago
    > master fire To be fair, I don't think tigers were visited by Prometheus nor did they benefit from his sacrifice to humans! Sorry, I'll see my way out...
CerealFounder 6y ago
I think in 100 years this general thought will be something we look back on as obvious and the denial of it barbaric.
redis_mlc 6y ago
Go to a zoo with hornbills. Are you watching them, or are they watching you? I once went to a crocodile park in SE Asia ... where they didn't feed them apparently. You haven't lived until you hear 100 crocodiles thundering after you, as you run for your life. Closest thing to the James Bond scene in "Live and Let Die." I've seen one over 20' long, Lolong, that had its own pool: https://crocodilepark.ph/philippine-star/ https://crocodilepark.ph/philippine-star/

saagarjha 6y ago

Perhaps it’s humans that lack the higher intelligence that would allow them to understand that other species may also be intelligent.

maxbond 6y ago
I believe it's something like the adage, "it's difficult to make someone understand something their paycheck depends on their not understanding." Think about people who will tell you lobsters can't feel pain while they're rattling in a pot. The idea we are the only intelligent species, and that everything around us exists only to be exploited for our benefit, is quite convenient. Edited to add: I think this is also related to the way tech companies view their users. They aren't humans with needs to be fulfilled, they're a resource to be extracted. More a coal mine than a customer. (Not to lob a grenade into the discussion, I just found it relevant.)
osrec 6y ago
I think it might be quite the opposite. Our highly developed minds/egos sometimes cloud our ability to see reality as it is, and often make us believe that we are more/less special or gifted than others.
vmception 6y ago
There is very consistent supporting information to explore that thought further. We rely too heavily on structured vocal responses to determine intelligence. On top of that we rely on observing erroneous unnecessary behavior to consider something might be thinking. This could be a real limitation of us as a species.
hinkley 6y ago
I don't think it's intelligence, but humility. We are (hopefully) transitioning through an era where being a conqueror is less successful than collaboration. But there are way too many of us who are less than seven generations separated from conquerors. Conquerors bank on exclusiveness, not inclusiveness. We're still trying to convince each other that all the humans deserve to be in the Humanity Club. If we can't hack that, then who is going to want to talk about cetaceans and chimpanzees and corvids?

novok 6y ago

Humans were effective in their intelligence and rule the world with it, no other animal has shown anything approaching something like that. You judge them by their results.

guerrilla 6y ago
That's not a measure of our intelligence, only our ambition and aggression. The two may not even be correlated.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  So crows could build a jumbo jet, they're just lazy? It's pretty obvious that animals lack any type of intelligence even close to human ability. It's not even in the same ballpark.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    See, there's your arrogance again. They may have no interest in doing so or anything leading up to it and desire is not a measure of intelligence.
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      OK, so how about the fact that they haven't figured out how to heal broken bones? Is that my arrogance again, or is it that they would just prefer to flop on the ground until nightfall and then be eaten alive by coyotes?
      - ElFitz 6y ago
        And how are crows supposed to defend wounded fellows from coyotes? Or carry them to safety? How about the fact they can apparently build compound tools from parts? Your example isn't just about brains. It requires both proper bodies and arguably complex social behaviors, which are quite separate from intelligence itself.

1123581321 6y ago

Well, that reasoning is your wording alone. The reason scientists do not optimistically assert animals must have human-analogous intelligence is because of the difficulty required to design a test that will reveal traces of it.

JackFr 6y ago

Consider the Turing Test, not as a goal for AI, but rather the working definition of intelligence. Put another way, game knows game.

ta1234567890 6y ago

Because then it's easier to justify enslaving or killing them. Mostly we just don't even want to know.

davidgerard 6y ago

Historically, humans have frequently tried to claim other groups of humans aren't really intelligent, so ...

V-2 6y ago

High intelligence isn't just a blessing. There are serious evolutionary costs associated (such as, for one, longer childhood). Evolution patterns follow the adage "use it or lose it", so if a species doesn't show signs of benefiting from higher intelligence, why should we assume that it's there? Why would natural selection maintain this trait if there was no obvious payback?

kyuudou 6y ago
> High intelligence isn't just a blessing. Not only that, mental illness correlates strongly with higher IQ: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/link-between-intelligence-and-mental-illness1.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human... Perhaps that's why I frequently see links about depression, bipolar etc on HN... I read so many comments about "I got burned out coding 15 hour days and then I got diagnosed with major depression and my life's been a wreck since and no one will hire me" sort of themes!

ARandomerDude 6y ago

It's not like the idea is arbitrary. Have you ever seen a giraffe build a car, or even a skateboard? We don't assume superior intelligence, we observe it.

kobe_bryant 6y ago

all you have to do is watch a nature documentary to see many different animal species reason, work together and have emotional reactions which shows that they have a sense of self and thus a consciousness

ekianjo 6y ago

> Why wouldn't they have higher intelligence? Because almost no other animal appears to think ahead of time , master fire, build tools that did not exist before? You can come up with numerous explanations as to why it's that, but what one's species' brain can come up with will be a serious constraint as well.

tomc1985 6y ago
> think ahead of time The angry, injured tiger that killed its hunter by stalking his house and planning an ambush comes to mind https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551459 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551... > master fire, Nothing comes to mind but I would not rule out some kind of animal using fire for some purpose > build tools that did not exist before A number of species have been shown to construct tools to make their labor easier. "That didn't exist before" is a little difficult to pin down as animal communities are hyperlocal.
- V-2 6y ago
  Regarding the tiger - that's a fascinating story, but it's worth noting that the article stresses "it was anything but typical" and that "in living memory, there was no record of an incident like this".
- kyuudou 6y ago
  > master fire To be fair, I don't think tigers were visited by Prometheus nor did they benefit from his sacrifice to humans! Sorry, I'll see my way out...

CerealFounder 6y ago

I think in 100 years this general thought will be something we look back on as obvious and the denial of it barbaric.

redis_mlc 6y ago

Go to a zoo with hornbills. Are you watching them, or are they watching you? I once went to a crocodile park in SE Asia ... where they didn't feed them apparently. You haven't lived until you hear 100 crocodiles thundering after you, as you run for your life. Closest thing to the James Bond scene in "Live and Let Die." I've seen one over 20' long, Lolong, that had its own pool: https://crocodilepark.ph/philippine-star/ https://crocodilepark.ph/philippine-star/