4 ms·

The Wonderful Awful Browser

26 points by sanj 18y ago

run4yourlives 18y ago
This isn't a bad article, even if it is rather obvious. One thing I would like to see though is an understanding that the application programmer understands that he is in a different environment, and therefore is the one that needs to adapt. In many parts I got the feeling that the thesis was: It was like this on the desktop, so the web should change to be more like the desktop because that way I don't have to change. That's the kind of thinking that gives us craptastic IE only business apps, and has actually stalled IE improvements over the last couple of years.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "It was like this on the desktop, so the web should change to be more like the desktop because that way I don't have to change." Or "It was like this on the desktop, so my users demand that it be just that way on the web version, too, so they don't have to change."
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    That's a valid point. But it begs the question: Why are you not writing a desktop app then?
    - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
      because managing a stateful client is nasty and costly if users cannot or are not allowed to do it themselves.
      - run4yourlives 18y ago
        You can't have your cake and eat it too. Software development is all about compromise.
        kendowns 18y ago
        You can have your cake and eat it too, and you don't have to compromise. All you have to do is recognize where the browser's original intent may be different from your own (doc mgmnt versus transactional database mgmt). Making the browser do the job is very doable, but it is much easier if you recognize why it seems hard.
        run4yourlives 18y ago
        That's a very different view that what's being argued in this thread, and I agree with it. Of course, as I already alluded to, I understood you post to push this point, but felt that you sometimes got a little too close to making the suggestion that there was something inherently wrong with the way the web is set up. Thanks for clarifying.
- fauigerzigerk 18y ago
  I think he makes the point pretty clearly that heads down data entry simply comes with different requirements than web surfing. Try to order not one but 200 books a day from amazon and then let's talk UIs afterwards ;-)
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    I didn't take him to task for that. In fact I would agree. Point being, if that is such a requirement, and the web is so bad at it, why the heck are you trying to build a web app in the first place? Either you learn how to make it work in the environment, or you change the environment.
    - kendowns 18y ago
      The actual reason I gave in the OP was easy distribution. This is huge. I think also that my OP could have been stronger pointing out that the job is completely doable (in fact I've done it), with a sort of "here are the problems you will face" feel.
    - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
      Agreed, but what he complains about is that web programmers are telling him that the way he makes it work is somehow objectionable. I think it's pragmatic.
swivelmaster 18y ago
Ironic that the very attributes that allowed the web to be popular (HTML, easy navigation) have turned it into a nightmare for developing actual applications.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  Well, the web was originally designed for documents, not applications. So I'm not sure where the irony lies.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
kleevr 18y ago
This guy should look into XUL Runner: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Joy_of_XUL http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Joy_of_XUL
- kendowns 18y ago
  Actually I have, it is extremely cool. For my own case I don't know where it will fit in yet, as I currently do fine without it, but its one of those things I follow.

26 points by sanj 18y ago

This isn't a bad article, even if it is rather obvious. One thing I would like to see though is an understanding that the application programmer understands that he is in a different environment, and therefore is the one that needs to adapt. In many parts I got the feeling that the thesis was: It was like this on the desktop, so the web should change to be more like the desktop because that way I don't have to change. That's the kind of thinking that gives us craptastic IE only business apps, and has actually stalled IE improvements over the last couple of years.

jimbokun 18y ago
"It was like this on the desktop, so the web should change to be more like the desktop because that way I don't have to change." Or "It was like this on the desktop, so my users demand that it be just that way on the web version, too, so they don't have to change."
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  That's a valid point. But it begs the question: Why are you not writing a desktop app then?
  - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
    because managing a stateful client is nasty and costly if users cannot or are not allowed to do it themselves.
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      You can't have your cake and eat it too. Software development is all about compromise.
      - kendowns 18y ago
        You can have your cake and eat it too, and you don't have to compromise. All you have to do is recognize where the browser's original intent may be different from your own (doc mgmnt versus transactional database mgmt). Making the browser do the job is very doable, but it is much easier if you recognize why it seems hard.
        run4yourlives 18y ago
        That's a very different view that what's being argued in this thread, and I agree with it. Of course, as I already alluded to, I understood you post to push this point, but felt that you sometimes got a little too close to making the suggestion that there was something inherently wrong with the way the web is set up. Thanks for clarifying.
fauigerzigerk 18y ago
I think he makes the point pretty clearly that heads down data entry simply comes with different requirements than web surfing. Try to order not one but 200 books a day from amazon and then let's talk UIs afterwards ;-)
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  I didn't take him to task for that. In fact I would agree. Point being, if that is such a requirement, and the web is so bad at it, why the heck are you trying to build a web app in the first place? Either you learn how to make it work in the environment, or you change the environment.
  - kendowns 18y ago
    The actual reason I gave in the OP was easy distribution. This is huge. I think also that my OP could have been stronger pointing out that the job is completely doable (in fact I've done it), with a sort of "here are the problems you will face" feel.
  - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
    Agreed, but what he complains about is that web programmers are telling him that the way he makes it work is somehow objectionable. I think it's pragmatic.

swivelmaster 18y ago

Ironic that the very attributes that allowed the web to be popular (HTML, easy navigation) have turned it into a nightmare for developing actual applications.

Hexstream 18y ago
Well, the web was originally designed for documents, not applications. So I'm not sure where the irony lies.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

kleevr 18y ago

This guy should look into XUL Runner: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Joy_of_XUL http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Joy_of_XUL

kendowns 18y ago
Actually I have, it is extremely cool. For my own case I don't know where it will fit in yet, as I currently do fine without it, but its one of those things I follow.