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No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, ev

No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be politically incorrect” openly atheist crowd. But being in tech, and the corporate world, it’s not that easy… The biggest irony of all, is that now I live in what people consider to be “the country of freedom”, and yet, I’ve resorted back to my old ways, always using the “proper way to talk”, not to offend anyone, and always play the kind game. If you want to get anywhere in corporate America, you don’t have a choice anymore. You have to pretend, even if you agree 90%, you’re not pure enough. In reality, I love dissent, and hearing different ideas, and arguing, convince and being convinced, and not having to care about “banned” words or sensitivities. Lay it all on the table and come back to the drawing board. Where can any of us still get that? Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you.

sideshowb 6y ago
> Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. I feel you here, there is too much sugar coating of everything, it's spread to the UK too. We are pleased to serve you at another checkout. We will be pleased to help you on another occasion. The weird thing is some people genuinely seem not to realize that the content of these messages is simply 'no' and actually respond differently to them. Conversely I get more wound up when people try to dress up no as yes. As to a literal f-you however, there are of course ways to say no without resorting to verbal abuse :)
- gmueckl 6y ago
  You're missing the fact the information content of the quotes you give is fundamentally different from messages that say "not here" or "not now" in that they immediately suggests an alternative course of action. This is helpful instead of contrarian.
unabst 6y ago
And it shouldn't. If no is saying fuck you, then that's a far greater problem than being too nice. As if no is politically incorrect. This would have been a far better story actually than the NPR people pleaser pleaser feel good piece. In Japan there is honne and tatemae. So the corporate (and formal casual) bullshit is formalized. There's a script everyone follows to keep the peace. Then they all go out for a drink, and the cufflinks come off. The best scenario being, you get to say fuck you with the pretense of alcohol even if you're not drunk. And the wives know everything. So ironically, many Japanese admire the US where there is less of this bullshit. Except, that's only the appearance. Freedom is the tatemae. So the Japanese system actually works. In a system where you cannot avoid bullshit, scripted bullshit works wonders. So you need to question the system and those that support it. As it turns out, those that succeed with the system support it, and they're the wealthy.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
I was raised in a Mormon family, which I now understand to be a very similar experience to that of Jehovah's Witnesses. I went on (what was supposed to be) a two year mission for the LDS church, but grew up telling myself it was out of desire and not obligation. It was definitely about obligation, just like so many other aspects of my life at that time. I told myself I was going to college to better myself, but that was out of obligation, too. Similar to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism has created a culture that is explicitly against dissent. Leaders preach from the pulpit often that we should dismiss people whose conclusions are contrary to The Church's narrative or truth claims. Having recently left my belief in Mormonism, I've been taking a lot of time to reevaluate my goals and life decisions. Years of compromising with conservative Mormonism have left me with a strong appetite for open dissent and honest argument. Many times, politeness itself is censorship.
- todd_t 6y ago
  Similar background, and I completely agree. I left the faith ~8 years ago and went through an identity crisis. I didn't know what I wanted because I always said 'yes'. All of the decisions in my life to that point were mine, sure, but they were essentially made for me...and I was simply to say 'yes'.
- darkerside 6y ago
  Society itself is a culture against dissent. We choose to live together despite our differences and make sacrifices for the group over the individual. It's part of the social contract.
ritchiea 6y ago
What's wrong with being kind and speaking to people with respect while you disagree with them? One of the big problems with the "politically incorrect" or "radical free speech" crowd is that your words can hurt people's feeling. And your tone can hurt people's feelings. And there's no good reason to tell someone "fuck off" when you can politely say no other than maybe you have things you're angry about that you haven't dealt with well. And those things you're angry about are lingering around your subsconscious giving you a latent urge to tell someone to "fuck off." But other people shouldn't suffer because you haven't figured out how to deal with your anger issue.
- bananaface 6y ago
  What makes it difficult is the fact that people respond like this. What did he say that you even disagreed with? He has an "anger issue"? wtf.
  - ritchiea 6y ago
    So just to be clear, it makes it hard for him to be polite because if he complains about doing a minimal amount of work to not be rude, I say something?
    - Longhanks 6y ago
      It’s really ironic that the very argument you’re trying to provoke is what makes discussing with people like you hard.
    - bananaface 6y ago
      The point is that he didn't even say anything and you jumped down his throat. Imagine if he had.
      - ritchiea 6y ago
        He did say something, he said that it bothers him to have to shape the way he speaks to other people so that they are not offended. And what exactly is weird about that? Sounds like life to me. And that he misunderstands free speech which is about the government not being able to imprison you or legally punish you for speech.
column 6y ago
> what people consider to be “the country of freedom” Yeah, no. It's a country where it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job. Where cops can size any amount of money you have in your car for no reason. It's the motherland of profits and ads over privacy! US tries to sell itself as “the country of freedom” but I believe the world has come well aware this is BS and you may be much more free in the EU.
- pc86 6y ago
  > it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job You're going to have to prove that it's the norm because it's never happened to me, or anyone I have ever interacted with. In a country of 350 million people you can pull out half a dozen examples of anything. But please point me to a single peer-reviewed study that shows it's normal or expected to be fired in the manner you describe. You can't.
  - jgwil2 6y ago
    I don't think the parent means it is the norm for this to happen to most people, but rather that at-will employment[0] is the norm and this is a possibility, however remote, that most people have to reckon with. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
    - pc86 6y ago
      There is quite a bit of difference between "it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job" (a direct quote, I don't believe missing any context but open to counterarguments) and "a legal framework exists in which a thing could conceivably happen, even though it doesn't happen in any statistically significant numbers"
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
I’m a fairly blunt, “pithy” chap. This has not always won me friends, but this bluntness comes with a couple of important caveats: 1) I always treat people with respect. This is different from deference. I’ve spent a significant part of my life dealing with people that are sometimes emotionally challenged, coupled with a propensity for dealing with problems violently. Many of these folks react very badly to “snootiness.” They’d rather hear “screw you,” than some of the passive-aggressive put-downs you learn at Ivy-League colleges. 2) I’ve learned to never lie in business. Even in the interest of security, I’ve found that it’s possible to avoid lying, by saying things like “I am not authorized to talk about that,” or “That’s not my story to tell” (i.e. “no”). I take personal responsibility for my screwups, or my team’s, if I am the manager, and give, sincere, contrite (but not servile), apologies, keeping them focused on just the things for which I am responsible. I don’t allow others to “add on” to my apologies. Which I can sometimes do fairly directly. I never shirk responsibility, and I always make it clear that I am accountable, in direct, unambiguous language. This earned me a reputation of extreme trustworthiness. If I said I did something, then I did it. If I said I didn’t do something, then I didn’t do it. If I said “no,” it was accepted without a fight, and I didn’t need to be a jerk about it. People respected me, and they knew I respected them. They also knew they couldn’t push me around, so they didn’t try. In some cases, I wasn’t empowered to say no (like to a boss). In those cases, I often just had to bite my tongue, and do what I was ordered. If at all possible (not always an option), I would try to provide feedback on why I considered the order less-than-optimal, but I would do it, anyway.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > less-than-optimal, but I would do it, anyway. How did those things turn out? (Been in similar situations at my previous job)
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Both good and bad. In some cases, the boss was right, and I was wrong (always a good idea to tell the boss they were right). In other cases, I was right, and the boss was wrong (seldom a good idea to tell the boss they were wrong). Human relationships, as another commenter pointed out, are the real meat in life, and tend to present the biggest challenges. My self-discipline and self-awareness have almost nothing to do with my career, but are the result of a lifetime of personal self-development. Long, boring story.
raziel2p 6y ago
> In reality, I love dissent, and hearing different ideas, and arguing, convince and being convinced Sounds great. > and not having to care about “banned” words or sensitivities Whoa, where did this come from? How is this related to the previous statement at all? If you're the type of person who doesn't care about how your words can make others feel, then yeah I'm sure you're stuck with a feeling that you can't argue openly. Have you considered that by changing your tone so that it doesn't come across as personal attacks you would be able to have more open arguments? Maybe you've worked in companies where they actually have gone overboard, but in my experience most who complain about sensitivities are the type that want to call their colleagues' ideas "retarded" and such.
partyboat1586 6y ago
>Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. Sometimes, not many times. If you interpret the majority of No's as f-u's then that's on you.
throwaway81753 6y ago
I come from a very conservative family, at least among my father's family there have been also religious fanatics. That was hardly part of my life luckily, on the other hand open dissent (from younger ones) was hardly ever accepted. It was either met with ridicule, anger or shock. Actually both my mother and my sister also have been influenced a lot with their job choice. For me it has been quite a struggle to choose the studies and job I want to do involving stopping contact with my father almost completely without being faced constant criticism, persuasion and ridicule. Also showing showing happiness is expected. For me it's completely counter-intuitive what is acceptable and what not in terms of disagreement or even which opinions are okay to voice. I had to "manually" learn this.
Consultant32452 6y ago
"Progressivism is domestic imperialism. It is about the conquest of one culture by another, and needs demonstrations of submission to know when the job is done." ~ Michael Malice I'm sorry this is being done to you.
- dr-detroit 6y ago
  Why did you quote Kim Jong Un's biographer for your political ideology? irony?
x87678r 6y ago
> The pendulum went the other way ... I’ve resorted back to my old ways, Sounds like you need to find somewhere in the middle. You're allowed to disagree and debate. The polite smiling attitude and F-You attitude both are conflict avoidance.
steverb 6y ago
Fortunately, it is possible (even if our politicians can't do it) to completely disagree with someone and NOT be an asshole. You can argue AND still be respectful and polite to the person you are arguing with. You can vehemently disagree and still do so in a way that respects the other person's different perspective and point of view. And choosing not to use language that is commonly considered offensive is not a limit on your freedom. But others have the freedom to choose not to engage with you (or continue to employ you).
commandlinefan 6y ago
Same. My problem isn't finding the will or the ability to say no, it's figuring out when it's acceptable to say no. I've said no too many times and had absolutely each and every person (including people whose opinions I valued) who's analyzed the interaction come back with, "wow, you were being a real jerk saying no in that instance." I've come very close to losing jobs for saying no to the wrong person at the wrong time - if I didn't have an in-demand skillset that was hard to replace, I would almost definitely have found myself unemployed sporadically over the years. I've finally come around to accept that I'm far enough into the autism spectrum not to be able to figure out when I'm in the right, so I usually say yes because it's the least dangerous option.
exadeci 6y ago
When English/American say that Europeans are rude it's because we say No and we are clearer about our emotions and intentions, no so much bs.

sideshowb 6y ago

> Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. I feel you here, there is too much sugar coating of everything, it's spread to the UK too. We are pleased to serve you at another checkout. We will be pleased to help you on another occasion. The weird thing is some people genuinely seem not to realize that the content of these messages is simply 'no' and actually respond differently to them. Conversely I get more wound up when people try to dress up no as yes. As to a literal f-you however, there are of course ways to say no without resorting to verbal abuse :)

gmueckl 6y ago
You're missing the fact the information content of the quotes you give is fundamentally different from messages that say "not here" or "not now" in that they immediately suggests an alternative course of action. This is helpful instead of contrarian.

unabst 6y ago

And it shouldn't. If no is saying fuck you, then that's a far greater problem than being too nice. As if no is politically incorrect. This would have been a far better story actually than the NPR people pleaser pleaser feel good piece. In Japan there is honne and tatemae. So the corporate (and formal casual) bullshit is formalized. There's a script everyone follows to keep the peace. Then they all go out for a drink, and the cufflinks come off. The best scenario being, you get to say fuck you with the pretense of alcohol even if you're not drunk. And the wives know everything. So ironically, many Japanese admire the US where there is less of this bullshit. Except, that's only the appearance. Freedom is the tatemae. So the Japanese system actually works. In a system where you cannot avoid bullshit, scripted bullshit works wonders. So you need to question the system and those that support it. As it turns out, those that succeed with the system support it, and they're the wealthy.

thomastjeffery 6y ago

I was raised in a Mormon family, which I now understand to be a very similar experience to that of Jehovah's Witnesses. I went on (what was supposed to be) a two year mission for the LDS church, but grew up telling myself it was out of desire and not obligation. It was definitely about obligation, just like so many other aspects of my life at that time. I told myself I was going to college to better myself, but that was out of obligation, too. Similar to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism has created a culture that is explicitly against dissent. Leaders preach from the pulpit often that we should dismiss people whose conclusions are contrary to The Church's narrative or truth claims. Having recently left my belief in Mormonism, I've been taking a lot of time to reevaluate my goals and life decisions. Years of compromising with conservative Mormonism have left me with a strong appetite for open dissent and honest argument. Many times, politeness itself is censorship.

todd_t 6y ago
Similar background, and I completely agree. I left the faith ~8 years ago and went through an identity crisis. I didn't know what I wanted because I always said 'yes'. All of the decisions in my life to that point were mine, sure, but they were essentially made for me...and I was simply to say 'yes'.
darkerside 6y ago
Society itself is a culture against dissent. We choose to live together despite our differences and make sacrifices for the group over the individual. It's part of the social contract.

ritchiea 6y ago

What's wrong with being kind and speaking to people with respect while you disagree with them? One of the big problems with the "politically incorrect" or "radical free speech" crowd is that your words can hurt people's feeling. And your tone can hurt people's feelings. And there's no good reason to tell someone "fuck off" when you can politely say no other than maybe you have things you're angry about that you haven't dealt with well. And those things you're angry about are lingering around your subsconscious giving you a latent urge to tell someone to "fuck off." But other people shouldn't suffer because you haven't figured out how to deal with your anger issue.

bananaface 6y ago
What makes it difficult is the fact that people respond like this. What did he say that you even disagreed with? He has an "anger issue"? wtf.
- ritchiea 6y ago
  So just to be clear, it makes it hard for him to be polite because if he complains about doing a minimal amount of work to not be rude, I say something?
  - Longhanks 6y ago
    It’s really ironic that the very argument you’re trying to provoke is what makes discussing with people like you hard.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    The point is that he didn't even say anything and you jumped down his throat. Imagine if he had.
    - ritchiea 6y ago
      He did say something, he said that it bothers him to have to shape the way he speaks to other people so that they are not offended. And what exactly is weird about that? Sounds like life to me. And that he misunderstands free speech which is about the government not being able to imprison you or legally punish you for speech.

column 6y ago

> what people consider to be “the country of freedom” Yeah, no. It's a country where it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job. Where cops can size any amount of money you have in your car for no reason. It's the motherland of profits and ads over privacy! US tries to sell itself as “the country of freedom” but I believe the world has come well aware this is BS and you may be much more free in the EU.

pc86 6y ago
> it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job You're going to have to prove that it's the norm because it's never happened to me, or anyone I have ever interacted with. In a country of 350 million people you can pull out half a dozen examples of anything. But please point me to a single peer-reviewed study that shows it's normal or expected to be fired in the manner you describe. You can't.
- jgwil2 6y ago
  I don't think the parent means it is the norm for this to happen to most people, but rather that at-will employment[0] is the norm and this is a possibility, however remote, that most people have to reckon with. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
  - pc86 6y ago
    There is quite a bit of difference between "it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job" (a direct quote, I don't believe missing any context but open to counterarguments) and "a legal framework exists in which a thing could conceivably happen, even though it doesn't happen in any statistically significant numbers"
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

I’m a fairly blunt, “pithy” chap. This has not always won me friends, but this bluntness comes with a couple of important caveats: 1) I always treat people with respect. This is different from deference. I’ve spent a significant part of my life dealing with people that are sometimes emotionally challenged, coupled with a propensity for dealing with problems violently. Many of these folks react very badly to “snootiness.” They’d rather hear “screw you,” than some of the passive-aggressive put-downs you learn at Ivy-League colleges. 2) I’ve learned to never lie in business. Even in the interest of security, I’ve found that it’s possible to avoid lying, by saying things like “I am not authorized to talk about that,” or “That’s not my story to tell” (i.e. “no”). I take personal responsibility for my screwups, or my team’s, if I am the manager, and give, sincere, contrite (but not servile), apologies, keeping them focused on just the things for which I am responsible. I don’t allow others to “add on” to my apologies. Which I can sometimes do fairly directly. I never shirk responsibility, and I always make it clear that I am accountable, in direct, unambiguous language. This earned me a reputation of extreme trustworthiness. If I said I did something, then I did it. If I said I didn’t do something, then I didn’t do it. If I said “no,” it was accepted without a fight, and I didn’t need to be a jerk about it. People respected me, and they knew I respected them. They also knew they couldn’t push me around, so they didn’t try. In some cases, I wasn’t empowered to say no (like to a boss). In those cases, I often just had to bite my tongue, and do what I was ordered. If at all possible (not always an option), I would try to provide feedback on why I considered the order less-than-optimal, but I would do it, anyway.

cutemonster 6y ago
> less-than-optimal, but I would do it, anyway. How did those things turn out? (Been in similar situations at my previous job)
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  Both good and bad. In some cases, the boss was right, and I was wrong (always a good idea to tell the boss they were right). In other cases, I was right, and the boss was wrong (seldom a good idea to tell the boss they were wrong). Human relationships, as another commenter pointed out, are the real meat in life, and tend to present the biggest challenges. My self-discipline and self-awareness have almost nothing to do with my career, but are the result of a lifetime of personal self-development. Long, boring story.

raziel2p 6y ago

> In reality, I love dissent, and hearing different ideas, and arguing, convince and being convinced Sounds great. > and not having to care about “banned” words or sensitivities Whoa, where did this come from? How is this related to the previous statement at all? If you're the type of person who doesn't care about how your words can make others feel, then yeah I'm sure you're stuck with a feeling that you can't argue openly. Have you considered that by changing your tone so that it doesn't come across as personal attacks you would be able to have more open arguments? Maybe you've worked in companies where they actually have gone overboard, but in my experience most who complain about sensitivities are the type that want to call their colleagues' ideas "retarded" and such.

partyboat1586 6y ago

>Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. Sometimes, not many times. If you interpret the majority of No's as f-u's then that's on you.

throwaway81753 6y ago

I come from a very conservative family, at least among my father's family there have been also religious fanatics. That was hardly part of my life luckily, on the other hand open dissent (from younger ones) was hardly ever accepted. It was either met with ridicule, anger or shock. Actually both my mother and my sister also have been influenced a lot with their job choice. For me it has been quite a struggle to choose the studies and job I want to do involving stopping contact with my father almost completely without being faced constant criticism, persuasion and ridicule. Also showing showing happiness is expected. For me it's completely counter-intuitive what is acceptable and what not in terms of disagreement or even which opinions are okay to voice. I had to "manually" learn this.

Consultant32452 6y ago

"Progressivism is domestic imperialism. It is about the conquest of one culture by another, and needs demonstrations of submission to know when the job is done." ~ Michael Malice I'm sorry this is being done to you.

dr-detroit 6y ago
Why did you quote Kim Jong Un's biographer for your political ideology? irony?

x87678r 6y ago

> The pendulum went the other way ... I’ve resorted back to my old ways, Sounds like you need to find somewhere in the middle. You're allowed to disagree and debate. The polite smiling attitude and F-You attitude both are conflict avoidance.

steverb 6y ago

Fortunately, it is possible (even if our politicians can't do it) to completely disagree with someone and NOT be an asshole. You can argue AND still be respectful and polite to the person you are arguing with. You can vehemently disagree and still do so in a way that respects the other person's different perspective and point of view. And choosing not to use language that is commonly considered offensive is not a limit on your freedom. But others have the freedom to choose not to engage with you (or continue to employ you).

commandlinefan 6y ago

Same. My problem isn't finding the will or the ability to say no, it's figuring out when it's acceptable to say no. I've said no too many times and had absolutely each and every person (including people whose opinions I valued) who's analyzed the interaction come back with, "wow, you were being a real jerk saying no in that instance." I've come very close to losing jobs for saying no to the wrong person at the wrong time - if I didn't have an in-demand skillset that was hard to replace, I would almost definitely have found myself unemployed sporadically over the years. I've finally come around to accept that I'm far enough into the autism spectrum not to be able to figure out when I'm in the right, so I usually say yes because it's the least dangerous option.

exadeci 6y ago

When English/American say that Europeans are rude it's because we say No and we are clearer about our emotions and intentions, no so much bs.