8 ms·
Facebook says it may quit Europe over ban on sharing data with US
- 7786655 6y agoGood. Now if only they would quit the US too.
- variaga 6y agoRight? Lucky Europe.
- tharne 6y agoU.S. Needs to copycat that EU law ASAP, IMO.
- _mkef 6y agoWe have Micky Mouse laws in the US. Legally mega corps have to do whatever ensures rising profits. If they pollute the local river, causing birth defects and cancers, it's often more profitable than not polluting in the first place. Push come to shove you can just shut the company down when you get sued. The only thing you can do is be a smart consumer. Know who owns your data, and be mindful of what your actually buying. I really want a VR headset, not a Facebook Advertisement delivery device .
- TheCoelacanth 6y agoBy "Micky Mouse laws", I'm assuming you mean extended-duration copyright laws. The US actually did copy those from Europe, so fingers crossed...
- _mkef 6y agoI meant laws which bend to corporate expectations. A more appropriate phrase would be regulatory capture.
- java-man 6y agoGood for Europe on more than one level, I suppose.
- weinzierl 6y agoI doubt it. Not because Facebook is good but because I fear what would fill the vacuum left behind if they retreat. Do you want a taste? Look what Hubert Burda's companies are doing and you will want Facebook back.
- klyrs 6y agoI just looked up Burda but couldn't find anything salacious. Not surprising for a media mogul, I guess. Can you be more precise?
- weinzierl 6y agoBurda is behind the Clix browser which brands itself as a privacy respecting Chrome/Firefox alternative but is outright spyware in my opinion. There have been a few threads about this on HN in the past. Another example is Xing which is a surprisingly popular LinkedIn clone that copies many of the dark patters of the original.
- durnygbur 6y agoXing-like pulp will be the European Facebook? Oh god no. In EU only German media corporations have enough money to enter this market, but they have no sophistication to create anything engaging or interesting. Facebook-like success story of bunch of folks building something from scratch simply doesn't occur in Europe and it is disgraceful.
- lazyasciiart 6y agoTell Spotify.
- weinzierl 6y agoAs someone who's been on Xing from the very beginning (when it was still called OpenBC) and has been on LinkedIn for sometime my opinion is this: You can accuse Xing of many things but not that they are behind LinkedIn. I mean regarding the technology, UX and overall experience I have no complaints and I find the community there much more pleasant than LinkedIn. That's one reason I'm still on Xing, but quit LinkedIn some time ago. What I criticize though is their use of dark patterns and tricking their users into accepting things they most probably don't really want. In that regard they are more akin to Facebook and maybe even worse than the recent LinkedIn.
- detaro 6y agopreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24540991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24540991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24549979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24549979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24543932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24543932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24554893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24554893
- mellosouls 6y agoThis is pretty pathetic of Facebook; and they stoop even lower by claiming embattlement solidarity with other businesses because of the pandemic. A lack of safe, secure and legal international data transfers would damage the economy and hamper the growth of data-driven businesses in the EU, just as we seek a recovery from Covid-19. Clean up your act, or leave the EU data in the EU; we all know you're not going anywhere.
- matkoniecz 6y agoAlso, Facebook leaving and creating void would encourage "growth of data-driven businesses in the EU".
- Rebelgecko 6y agoIt's definitely an interesting architecture problem. If the EU says that all data related to EU residents has to stay in the EU, what happens if I as an American leave a comment on a post by a friend of mine in Europe? If my interactions with Europeans have to be stored in the EU, will all of my requests have to be served by Facebook servers in the EU? Definitely won't be fun for latency. I don't think that would be an insurmountable problem, but it makes things complicated. Let's make things even more complicated: what if another jurisdiction passes similar rules? Lets say all data pertaining to residents of New Zealand and Australia has to stay in Oceania. How will people in the EU and Oceania be able to interact without running afoul of at least one jurisdiction's rules?
- nickff 6y agoThere would also be problems when people travel (either as tourists or to permanently move); what happens to their 'old' data, or their 'new' data when/if they travel back? So-called 'edge cases' become big problems when you have a large number of users, and fines/penalties are based on corporate revenues (rather than damages).
- addicted 6y agoThose are edge cases that need to be resolved. In many cases there may not be satisfactory resolutions for them. And it’s almost always the case that the law will not punish somebody for an Un implementable regulation if they see that the entity made a reasonable effort to try and follow it. Talking about edge cases is a distraction from the fact that FB is refusing to implement things that are very much not edge cases and do not have fundamental implementation challenges associated with them.
- kavalec 6y agoBoo hoo?
- vr46 6y agoPromises, promises. If only they could be trusted to keep them, I’d vote for this one.
- pwillia7 6y agoI don't buy their bluff. Uber is dominant in every market because it strangles its competitors, not because no one else can make a ride share application.
- matkoniecz 6y agoThis bluffing is not believable at all.
- sys_64738 6y agoReminds me of this scene from TGTB&TU western https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrYtD7gSWsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrYtD7gSWsI
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tarboreus 6y agoDon't threaten Europe with a good time. By all means, let the door hit you on the way out.
- cinntaile 6y agoIn theory they should have a pretty decent bargaining position though. Imagine Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp to stop functioning by year end. I bet a lot of consumers would be pretty upset about that and I think most of them really don't care that their data is being sent to the US. I suspect they'll just bow to the EU demands though, it's probably the simplest way without burning any bridges.
- mpfundstein 6y agoi hobestly think most people would actually kinda like it
- HenryBemis 6y agoWe got good alternatives for WhatsApp (Signal, Threema, Telegram). Not perfect, but fit for purpose. Instagram and FB.. plenty of boards and forums, Mastodon. For anyone who thinks that "there are no technology alternatives for XYZ" or that "tech cannot move so fast to close the XYZ gap".. see what happened in 2020 with COVID and how fast tech industry moved to cover the gaps that were newly created (or lately enhanced).
- a1369209993 6y agoI think it's more: people are using WhatsApp (etc), presumably for a reason[0], and Facebook thinks (not necessarily falsely) that it can mislead those people to blame their government for 'forcing' Facebook to break the software they're using. 0: That that reason is "it's a pain in the ass to migrate to something else" rather than any actual merit of WhatsApp wouldn't make this tactic this any less effective.
- stiray 6y agoI beg to differ. This was huge tactical mistake that they have made. The same issue that they have is also common for google, microsoft, amazon (probably). If EU would let them off the hook based on their "threats", everyone would start doing it the same. Now FB has put themself into unique position where they have forced EU to do exactly what they dont want. Someone is very stupid in their chain of command.
- sorokod 6y agoNow that would be a fine experiment
- jbob2000 6y agoI think the EU is doing this to spark interest in EU tech companies. Right now, you get laughed at if you suggest building a social network product. But if the legislature can create an environment where this market opens up, then it might not be so funny!
- sairamkunala 6y agowait, don't they have a legal entity registered in Ireland?
- justaguy88 6y agoYes thats the on-paper HQ
- wtt604 6y agoHas ABBA ever covered "Sunshine, lollipop, rainbows everywhere"?
- reizorc 6y agoPlease do.
- karmasimida 6y agoWill be interesting to see how many people would miss them in case they pulled this off.
- jimnotgym 6y agoI call bluff. What on earth do they hope to achieve with this but to get the whole of Europe saying 'good riddance'?
- bluecalm 6y agoThe whole Europe won't though. People use FB/Instagram/WhatsApp because they like it and often rely on it. If those disappear tomorrow because of politics then riots in Europe demanding heads of EU politicians are more likely than people saying good riddance.
- sorokod 6y ago"A lack of safe, secure and legal international data transfers would damage the economy and hamper the growth of data-driven businesses in the EU, just as we seek a recovery from Covid-19" The "we" in the above quote is both touching and sincere.
- megous 6y ago> European court of justice found in July that there were insufficient safeguards against snooping by US intelligence agencies. > In a court filing in Dublin, Facebook’s associate general counsel wrote that enforcing the ban would leave the company unable to operate. Wait, does that mean that snooping by US intelligence agencies on people in EU is required for Facebook operation? It's a weird ban though, as if interpreted as described, it would lead to two Facebooks where EU/US users would not be able to interact.
- cblconfederate 6y agothat is not surprising anymore (the ruling wasnt a total ban on sending data, rather that there must be restrictions over what private data can be transferred)
- patmcc 6y ago>>>Wait, does that mean that snooping by US intelligence agencies on people in EU is required for Facebook operation? Any US-based company is required to submit to warrants/subpoenas (assuming they're legal/proper) from intelligence agencies. It may certainly be the case that courts would hold Facebook in contempt if they refused - even if they refused in order to comply with EU law.
- bleepblorp 6y agoUS intelligence agencies don't need warrants to get data regarding non-US persons. Such data must be handed over upon request. This is both a problem for individual civil liberties and for non-US businesses, as the US intelligence system does conduct commercial espionage.
- nickff 6y ago>" US intelligence agencies don't need warrants to get data regarding non-US persons. Such data must be handed over upon request." My understanding was that intelligence agencies were required to get a so-called "FISA warrant" to compel the production of information. [1] Am I missing something? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
- axihack 6y agoThank you!
- cblconfederate 6y agothat sounds fantastic. but you can't trust facebook to do the right thing
- heavyset_go 6y agoDoubt it, companies always threaten to pull out or leave a market if they don't get their way, but rarely ever do it.
- relaunched 6y agoI'm betting that they don't "Quit Europe". It's interesting that it qualified the statement with, “Facebook is not threatening to withdraw from Europe,”. It sounds like what they are really saying is that we have a lot of work to do to figure out how to operate under these conditions. That's a fair statements, but I have full faith that capitalism will motivate them to figure out how to make it all work.
- chillacy 6y agoThe headline is sort of sensationalized. I guess that’s all that matters because most of the commenters here seem to have only read the headline and then commented less than 5 words on that.
- baq 6y agoI won’t cry but am afraid of the implosion caused by the vacuum that’s leave.
- MattGaiser 6y agoThe USA/Canada should just refuse to enforce any ruling against a tech company from another country. Europe can either put up a Great Firewall or find something else to do.
- klyrs 6y agoWhy are you lumping Canada in with the USA?
- MattGaiser 6y agoI am Canadian and think we should do it too.
- klyrs 6y agoI'm Canadian and think we should be as cautious about how foreign companies handle our data as the EU is. And FWIW, I'd love to see us stand up to the US and say that we aren't here to enforce their laws too.
- nerfhammer 6y agoLatency. It would be impractical to have European data only physically stored in Europe and be able to have North Americans interact with Europeans. US vs. Canada doesn't have the same problem.
- tharne 6y agoCanada and the U.S. are a common market and share a common language, culture and legal system, Quebec notwithstanding. The U.S. and Canada are arguably the two most integrated economies in the world. The only reason they're not lumped together more is that Americans forget they're there.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Canada and the U.S. are a common market and share a common language, culture and legal system, Quebec notwithstanding. Quebec shares a legal heritage with Louisiana, though that sets both apart from the rest of the US and Canada.
- axismundi 6y agoDoesn't this mean that FB cannot operate in EU simply because the US can't stop spying on EU citizens? Hey FB, why not go and complain to your government?
- kube-system 6y agoFacebook DGAF about spying. They want to send data to the US to monetize it. > "Facebook, and many other businesses, organisations and services, rely on data transfers between the EU and the US in order to operate their services."
- svckr 6y agoI think we safely can read "services" as "monetization of user data" in 90% of corporate communications.
- kube-system 6y agoAt least you can for the corporations whose commercial product line literally is the monetization of user data. There are still corporations that exist that offer other types of services though.
- Spivak 6y agoI mean that's how FB actually makes their money but FB's backend is globally replicated database which is the transfer they're talking about so this statement isn't really nefarious. It's just there's a lot of cross-polination of user-data on a social network and segmenting it out is kinda dumb. Like if you architected it so that every user has a home country and enforced data locality then FB needs a datacenter in every country they operate in and a US user viewing a UK profile needs to (in my view arbitrarily) go across the Atlantic ocean just so that you can play jurisdictional games with no actual security boundary. It's still all Facebook, and it's the same cross-pollination there was before, every country will need to access every other country's data and a malicious US could still force FB to produce the data of UK users but it feels better?
- tdons 6y agoBye. Take WhatsApp and Instagram offline in Europe while you're at it :-)
- _mkef 6y agoThe EU has been doing a great job when it comes to safeguarding user privacy. Tons of apps that require your location for one purpose, end up selling it to third-party brokers for other reasons. The EU was able to find this in one of their reports. I really hope all nations start to implement serious controls here. In my opinion you should need a license store user location data and they should be revoked immediately if you're found not protecting it, or retaining it longer than you need to. For example a rideshare service should only store your location for the duration of your ride and then should delete it within 10 days or so. I love ridesharing, but I don't like the idea of someone being able to know everywhere I've been for the last 2 years.
- playcache 6y agoFacebook is going to tank over the next ten years anwyay. In the UK anyone under the age of 20 laughs when you mention facebook, its what their parents / grandparents use.
- graeme 6y ago> “it is not clear … how, in those circumstances, it could continue to provide the Facebook and Instagram services in the EU.” Instagram too. That’s widely used by youth.
- rhn_mk1 6y agoDon't underestimate Facebook. They own both Whatsapp and Instagram. When the time comes, they will turn those into what Facebook is today.
- NicoJuicy 6y agoBye Facebook, greetings from Belgium.
- throwawaymanbot 6y agoI have a feeling no one would care.
- quaa55 6y agox
- ramtatatam 6y agoI have not used facebook since they banned me years ago for not giving my real name. I have never had second thoughts. So there is at least one person in Europe (but I think there is more of us) who would like to see this happen :)
- tinyhouse 6y agoQuitting a market of 450M people. Yeah sure...
- darepublic 6y agoI'm sure the textbooks on ww3 will I include the partitioning of the internet in 2020 as noteworthy in the lad up to the conflict
- aatharuv 6y agoInteresting (or really not so surprising) that Facebook's head of global affairs is Nick Clegg, former British Deputy Prime Minister (and head of the Liberal Democrats when they were in coalition with Cameron's Conservatives).
- arnklint 6y agoKthxbye
- ksenzee 6y agoThis is perfect. FB quits Europe, a European competitor springs up, the whole world joins it because of network effects, and we all get European data-safety laws applied to our personal data.
- lazyasciiart 6y agoNo, Facebook would geofence Americans out. Sorry, the US government says your data is theirs.
- dijit 6y agoYou mean the US would block the European competitor? I mean, I know the lobby is powerful but that does strike me as a bit improbable. Hope I’m right.
- slg 6y agoWhy is that so far fetched? Isn't this what we are doing with TikTok?
- TheCoelacanth 6y agoIt remains to be seen whether they will actually get away with doing that, and I think it would be much harder to get away with doing that to a popular European app rather than a popular Chinese app.
- rtx 6y agoHow will this new company make money? If its funded by the government it could work.
- anthropodie 6y agoCheck out Okuna https://youtu.be/tGrP80GVkW4 https://youtu.be/tGrP80GVkW4 It is from Europe.
- tharne 6y agoFrom your lips to God's ears.
- kingwill101 6y agoThis is where the fediverse comes in handy.
- libraryatnight 6y agoUgh, can't they leave the US instead. Please. Please just leave.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- inoffensivename 6y agoand nothing of value was lost
- mrtksn 6y agoIt's essentially the same situation with TikTok, however instead of outright banning Facebook, EU tries to regulate it. I strongly believe this is the right path forward, not the Chinese/US model of banning services. If the US way of doing things prevails, you can bet that Facebook and the rest will be banned all over the world because it is actually a security risk and it is a proven fact that US intelligence agencies are indeed snooping Facebook and other US tech companies. How do we know that? Thanks to Snowden. The revealed program is PRISM[0], who knows what else is out there. I really hope that the EU way becomes the norm, otherwise the internet will get patchy, we won't have global communities anymore. There might be solutions like companies incorporating in each country like Coca-Cola opening a plant in every country but it will not be the same and will make the barrier of entry so high that very few will make it. No more global startups form a dorm room. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
- bad_user 6y agoIt's really not the same thing. EU wants data privacy, and has regulations for it. European countries have always had strong consumer protection laws, it just so happens that the EU has unified them and it has teeth. To operate in a country, you have to follow that country's laws, period. At Facebook's scale, I don't think this is beyond their technical capabilities, or too expensive. The reason they are worried is that they've built their business on data surveillance, and they are worried that the EU with all their privacy regulations will invalidate their business model. As for Snowden, I remember the US president claiming that foreigners are not US citizens and thus we have no rights. Well, this is the EU protecting my rights, as an EU citizen. And US businesses will just have to comply if they want to do business here. Fine by me.
- kennywinker 6y ago> will invalidate their business model. make that "will make their business model less profitable" and I agree. With that many users, I'm very skeptical you need ANY kind of micro-targeting of ads to make good money. But the targeting allows you to make crazy money so they're pretty attached to it.
- dEnigma 6y agoHere I was thinking that I didn't care all that much about the mandatory Facebook login for the Oculus Quest 2, and now, just a few days later and before I've even received my device, Facebook threatens to "quit Europe". Not the best omen. I'm kidding, of course, but there is a kernel of truth.
- ilmiont 6y agoBrilliant! Good riddance Facebook. "Facebook has warned that it may pull out of Europe if the Irish data protection commissioner enforces a ban on sharing data with the US..." haha, "warned" who? You're not wanted!
- megiddo 6y agoLucky bastards.
- dmch-1 6y agoThis is perhaps more about economic competition than data safety. China has been doing this for a long time. USA is also taking the same approach recently.
- nemoniac 6y agoWait, what?! This is a British newspaper. Haven't the Brits already quit Europe? Are they realy bothered about this? Is Facebook threatening to quit Britain too?
- not2b 6y agoIt's not clear to be how strict the ban on sharing data is intended to be. If a person from Europe comments on a posting from someone in the US, or sends a private message, obviously data have to cross borders. Of course, many kinds of data could be stored more locally (advertising networks don't have to cross borders). But some aggregate information has to cross borders for an international company to do its bookkeeping. It seems that all of this could be worked out in a way that addresses Europe's privacy concerns.