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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

301 points by k1m 6y ago

atonse 6y ago
After reading the NSA article about getting ISIS in very subtle ways that makes it seem like technical glitches, does anyone believe that there were actual “technical glitches” preventing this guy from testifying on video about his CIA torture?
- slim 6y ago
  yes, I believe there's a team funded using millions of US taxpayer money working on sabotaging Assanges defense in every possible way including illegal and immoral ways like hacking, bribing, black mailing, etc..
  - elmo2you 6y ago
    You can bet on it. Also, these people will be highly motivated and not just be "doing their job". They'll be made well aware that their "way of life" and "reality as they know it" literally depends on the success of their work. Considering how these people are part of a criminal enterprise, it can be argued it's actually a true self-fulfilling prophesy. As far as I'm concerned, people involved in such actions deserve to be hunted down and illiminated with extreme prejudice, by any covert agency of any country that does actually respect due process of the legal system.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > As far as I'm concerned, people involved in such actions deserve to be hunted down and illiminated with extreme prejudice, by any covert agency of any country that does actually respect due process of the legal system. They have nothing to fear, then, as those countries wouldn't have covert agencies, even if they existed, which they don't. I agree about the first part though. When losing (on the grand scheme, not necessarily on a single case like Assange) means you go to jail, you get extra motivated.
  - justanotheranon 6y ago
    i believe so too. CIA has every witness to Assange's trial under surveillance and JTRIG are actively targetting them for harassment. anything to sabotage the defense. i hope the fact of that leaks onto Wikileaks. then Assange walks for the same reason Ellsberg walked. FBI used illegal tactics to persecute Ellsberg before his trial, which the govt was too embarassed about revealing to continue his prosecution.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    Do you have proof of that? If so you should definitely send it to NYT, WaPo, etc.
- Yc4win 6y ago
  Surely.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  Though he did suffer some technical difficulties, he did not testify as the court ruled his testimony was not relevant to the case. Subtly is not even necessary.
  - belorn 6y ago
    The paragraphs in the article. "In the United Kingdom, Assange’s legal team has been allowed to enter this evidence into the public record. However, during a potential trial in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense." "The Central Criminal Court in London was prepared for El Masri to testify. An interpreter was lined up for the ninth day of proceedings. However, technical problems prevented him from addressing the court beyond his written statement. Prosecutors also objected to El Masri giving live testimony. According to Court News UK reporter Charlie Jones, that prompted Assange to stand up and proclaim, "I will not accept you censoring a torture victim's statement to this court.""
    - luckylion 6y ago
      How do judges generally deal with that kind of situation? "Oh, the connection's not working? Ah well, moving on, we're ignoring this witness"?
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      Other sources I've seen disagree, that Charlie Jones tweet blames the translator, and the prosecution has been discussing blocking this testimony for a few days now. https://consortiumnews.com/2020/09/18/assange-hearing-day-nine-el-masris-story-is-told-in-court/ https://consortiumnews.com/2020/09/18/assange-hearing-day-ni...
      - acqq 6y ago
        Another report: https://assangecourt.report/september-18-morning https://assangecourt.report/september-18-morning "Mr El-Masri was due to give evidence by video link, but, after a legal argument, presiding judge Vanessa Baraitser decided that it would be sufficient for his statement to be read to the court and he need not appear."
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  does anyone believe that there were actual “technical glitches” preventing this guy from testifying on video about his CIA torture? FTA: it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Assange is accused of 17 counts of violating the Espionage Act
  - girvo 6y ago
    In the US. That doesn’t apply here yet.
- acqq 6y ago
  The article about NSA "getting ISIS" mentioned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24520757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24520757 Once there, see the posts by bashinator and _kbh_ for other sources. Back to the topic here, the "technical glitches" were present throughout the process, as reported day after day on: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ E.g. "This hearing has frequently been interrupted by the strange incompetence of the Ministry of Justice in establishing simple videolinks." "It was not Professor Feldstein’s fault the day finished in confused anti-climax. The court was unable to make the video technology work. For ten broken minutes out of about forty Feldstein was briefly able to give evidence, and even this was completely unsatisfactory as he and Mark Summers were repeatedly speaking over each other on the link." Also playing with the times: "Daniel Ellsberg was to give evidence this afternoon. Edward Fitzgerald QC applied for his videolink evidence to be heard at 3.15pm [(in England)] which is 07.15am in California where Dan lives. Baraitser insisted it could not be put back beyond 2.30 pm, thus forcing an 89 year old man [Daniel Ellsberg] to give evidence at 6.30am [(his local time)]. Simply stunning." The use of internet was also intentionally restricted: The judge "explained this by stating that the public could normally observe from within the courtroom, where she could control their behaviour. But if they had remote access, she could not control their behaviour and this was not in the “interests of justice”."
  - sfjailbird 6y ago
    Shouldn't they just postpone the proceedings until the "technical issues" are fixed?
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      Yes. For those unfamiliar with video and phone testimony during court proceedings, even when they technically work, the defense doesn't have the same ability to normal cross-examination or monitoring that correct procedures are followed. It's like the case is always going off the rails. An example is if somebody quotes from a document on the phone during a trial, but the document hasn't been submitted or cannot be found. What do you do next? Ask for a continuation for that one document? How about the second one? What if the reading is incorrect? So to even attempt a bad video link is an injustice.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  I find conspiracy theories exciting and compelling, but intellectually hollow. They are like junk food. They can even be right sometimes, just as pizza can nourish you. But we are better off setting them aside and sticking with the mundane issues of electing sensible representatives, supporting investigative journalism, engaging in fact-based discourse.
  - curtis3389 6y ago
    I'm not convinced we are better off ignoring all conspiracy theories. There are real conspiracies to break the law in the world, and some of them have been perpetrated by the US government. We have to look at the merits of each theory and decide whether it's batshit or not. Global conspiracy to fake a pandemic? Doesn't seem possible. A couple dudes in the CIA harassing a dude they tortured and then threatened to mess with if he talked? Not impossible. The criminal acts the US government has been up to raise serious questions regarding what you suggest we do: > electing sensible representatives how can you do this when your own government harasses and intimidates people it doesn't like? > supporting investigative journalism how can there be investigative journalism if receiving information could turn out to be a felony if it's the wrong information? > engaging in fact-based discourse how can you do this when your own government is hiding relevant facts from you?
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      You raise good points. Moderation in everything. A conspiracy theory is just one possible explanation of events. There is nothing wrong with attempting validate it while also considering other possible explanations. The harm comes when a shadowy cabal is one’s answer to everything.
  - mistermann 6y ago
    Conspiracy theories are ideas. Any particular theory may be 100% right, 100% wrong, somewhere in between, or it may be unknown/unknowable (too complicated or difficult to measure, the facts are classified, etc), like any other idea. > But we are better off setting them aside... How might a person know such a thing without doing something like running a parallel universe and trying the two approaches?
elmo2you 6y ago
> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime? If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never will, even for that specific fact only. In fact, any country that signed and ratified the UN's UDHR, should be barred from extraditing anyone to the USA. Especially for cases like these. If this involved an African, Asian or a Middle Eastern country, the USA and EU would no doubt threaten with bombing the country into submission, if they would continue to violate basic human right in order to cover up their criminal actions.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  Exactly. A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music. It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act. As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happening to Assange in the West. P.S. His prosecution isn't even about the 2016 election, however you feel about that, it's about him exposing war crimes committed by the U.S. government, killing civilians, including knowingly journalists and laughing about it.
  - chupasaurus 6y ago
    Snowden avoids the prosecution because even on a public trial he will get a life-long sentence since Espionage Act doesn't have an exemption for acting in the public interest.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      Right. What did I say differently?
  - justanotheranon 6y ago
malux85 6y ago
That was painful to read, that poor man. Absolutely disgusting behaviour from the US.
- Yaggo 6y ago
  It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.
    - squarefoot 6y ago
      > Is not the US people in any case, is their government. This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Identifying people with their government choices is the 1st step towards building hatred that will be used to convince weak minded citizen to enroll and invade that country. Most wars happened because governments screwed their own people convincing them there were enemies ready to kill them, where in fact there was nobody.
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        Still, tacit responsibility applies. They ignore and benefit from these acts.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Well, you still get a dissonance, right? Either the US is a democracy, and the People are responsible, or it isn't, in which case the People are deluding themselves.
Oricle 6y ago
The Jews are squeezing so hard now even average joe(80% are born followers) is seeing the wizard behind the curtain! Prescott Bush made the cia for gods sake lol. These people have dominated for 4000 years until Christians fought back, who were gentiles who knew the teaching because of jesus, the king of the Jews, who sent 12 opposites out to teach the gentiles. The isralites(Jews) killed their own king and denounce him to this day! Even Muslims, a religion that came along way after this fact 2000 years ago accepts the lamb of god, jesus. Not Jews! They the only ones calling themselves gods chosen, no one else! They lack empathy, its Real simple really! That's how they do what they do. Hard for most gentiles to understand, you know, been empathetic and all
fit2rule 6y ago
Its also preposterous that Americans will continue to justify these heinous acts as "might makes right", and then go on with their day, ignoring their states immense crimes against humanity in their effort to 'get theirs'... but yeah, drop the ol' "Ma' Russians!" into the conversations, and heads explode. There is literally no difference between the chemical castration of Assange inside a prison, and what "th' Russians" can do with a tea cup. One is covert and duplicitous, and the other is overt - but the message is the same: Journalists who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state. It seems we are in the quandary of the masses. Until Americans start feeling the repercussions of their states war crimes and crimes against humanity, they will simply allow them to continue to occur. Making further terrorism pretty much inevitable, on one side, and further leaks from real patriots, on the other side. Anyway .. Assange is the tip of the ice berg. For as long as Americans continue to ignore the burning piles of rubble that are the product of their state, the leaks will continue.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  I’m going to ignore all the subjective incendiary rhetoric and focus on this (slightly edited) line: > [Those] who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state. This is an interesting point, considering Snowdon made public improper behaviour, which resulted in him fleeing the country, while (at least some of) the improper behaviour has been declared illegal behaviour by a court of law. Meanwhile Snowdon remains persona non grata.
  - malux85 6y ago
    I wonder if we can manipulate trump into freeing Assange and Snowden under the narrative “These heros exposed Obama’s crimes, you can be the hero who frees them” (I know they are not “Obama’s” crimes but that’s the only way to get trump engaged, or maybe just “democrats” crimes) I think he would run with it if only it didn’t set president for whistleblowers to blow the whistle on whatever he has done...I dont think he thinks deeply enough to consider secondary effects but those around him may
    - acqq 6y ago
dsign 6y ago
Let's see what the British court does; I just hope they don't bring more shame to the country.
- RobertoG 6y ago
  I don't know the particulars of this case or the UK, so, maybe I'm wrong, but this is probably already decided. The way this kind of thing is done is by managing that the case goes to the "proper" judge.
  - pftf 6y ago
    From what I've seen so far, this is just a show trial for them to go through the motions. Assange is going to be extradited to the US and there's nothing anyone can do about it, short of breaking him out of his imprisonment.
    - jMyles 6y ago
      > short of breaking him out of his imprisonment. Is anyone strategizing around this? Do they accept donations?
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  They managed to kill Assange already, all is left is a human corpse still barely functioning and the result of the case is just facade.
doublesCs 6y ago
> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total sensory deprivation—carried out in the presence of state officials of Macedonia and within its jurisdiction.” > Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation, the aim being to cause Mr. Masri severe pain and suffering in order to obtain information,” the ECHR additionally found. > (...) > “The U.S. diplomatic cables revealed the extent of pressure brought upon the German authorities (and in parallel, relevant Spanish authorities) not to act upon the clear evidence of criminal acts by the USA even though by then exposed,” Goetz added. Then some Americans are confused that many in the western world don't like American influence. I find it outrageous that these things happen, and I wouldn't want my government to consider such a country an ally.
- yodsanklai 6y ago
  I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
  - tda 6y ago
    I know these is controversial, but this is what I personally think: (and even though a lot of this continued during Obama) Every American that voted for Bush' second term is partly responsible. It is evidently clear where the most political pressure to act like this has come from. Don't forget the NSADP was democratically elected. Every vote for the GOP is one to further legitimise these practices, and every voter is personally responsible for the way your country has headed as the writing was clearly on the wall. Just as ever member of the NSDAP has some responsibility for the holocaust, it should have been very clear to anyone paying attention that that party had some pretty extreme and objectionable view
yodsanklai 6y ago
What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).
- mantap 6y ago
  The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    Does the USA have a left today? The right who voted for the new deal are left of today’s left. Today’s left are more right than yesterday’s right.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      They do, but it isn't represented in either of their two parties. The Liberal party and the Far Right party both do their best to ignore the leftists. That said, at the local and house level there is an increase in left candidates getting elected. We'll see where that goes.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.
      - stjohnswarts 6y ago
        AOC and her squad are very far left and they're mainstream.
        ncmncm 6y ago
BostonJiao 6y ago
The empitome of American Imperialism.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well. His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published. There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is not stealing, it’s not treason, it’s not endangerment of affected government perpetrators. It’s the exposure of mass scale criminal murder and torture.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    I don’t see any basis it could be disputed in the case of the diplomatic cables. This very witness’s testimony proves it (as his torture and subsequent efforts by the US to pressure Germany and Spain to take no action when the criminal nature of it was learned - it was only brought to light because of the leaked cables, as explained in this post). These facts render it moot what you or I might personally think about his political motivations. Not only are such speculations not a basis for any of the charges, but the very evidence itself (the cables) requires us to see the humanitarian imperative that they be leaked and thus to view leakers and publishers as whistleblowers, setting all speculated internal motives we can’t prove (and which don’t supersede the moral imperative here) aside. In the case of the DNC email leaks, I could see a better argument that it was political, but then it also wouldn’t matter. None of the Espionage Act charges or accusations of putting US agents in grave harm are based on leaked DNC emails, only Iraq War leaks and the diplomatic cables. It would be awfully hard to prove any serious harm from publishing the DNC emails - and also the standard for publishers protected in that case is much higher. Keep in mind all that is proved that he did is publish them (no different than tons of other news outlets).
jedimind 6y ago
That's fantastic of him. I wish more people would support Assange and realise that this sort of treatment is unacceptable.
dash2 6y ago
This is your regular reminder that Russian interference in the US election of 2016 took the form of discouraging Democrats to vote by telling them that both parties were just the same. So, when Hacker News is suddenly full of topics like this, with commenters earnestly agreeing with each other that both parties are just the same and nothing will ever change, it’s worth being a little skeptical.
stanski 6y ago
Not trying to be extra cynical but it sounds like they should've just disappeared the guy after torturing him. I wonder if the people responsible aren't kicking themselves now for not doing it. Unless there was a lot media or government attention in this case, it'd be quite easy to point the blame at some terrorist group in Afghanistan and walk away.
somurzakov 6y ago
wow, what a shithole this CIA is. Not different from Russia's GRU/KGB
- supergirl 6y ago
  it's much worse and 10x bigger budget

301 points by k1m 6y ago

After reading the NSA article about getting ISIS in very subtle ways that makes it seem like technical glitches, does anyone believe that there were actual “technical glitches” preventing this guy from testifying on video about his CIA torture?

slim 6y ago
yes, I believe there's a team funded using millions of US taxpayer money working on sabotaging Assanges defense in every possible way including illegal and immoral ways like hacking, bribing, black mailing, etc..
- elmo2you 6y ago
  You can bet on it. Also, these people will be highly motivated and not just be "doing their job". They'll be made well aware that their "way of life" and "reality as they know it" literally depends on the success of their work. Considering how these people are part of a criminal enterprise, it can be argued it's actually a true self-fulfilling prophesy. As far as I'm concerned, people involved in such actions deserve to be hunted down and illiminated with extreme prejudice, by any covert agency of any country that does actually respect due process of the legal system.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > As far as I'm concerned, people involved in such actions deserve to be hunted down and illiminated with extreme prejudice, by any covert agency of any country that does actually respect due process of the legal system. They have nothing to fear, then, as those countries wouldn't have covert agencies, even if they existed, which they don't. I agree about the first part though. When losing (on the grand scheme, not necessarily on a single case like Assange) means you go to jail, you get extra motivated.
- justanotheranon 6y ago
  i believe so too. CIA has every witness to Assange's trial under surveillance and JTRIG are actively targetting them for harassment. anything to sabotage the defense. i hope the fact of that leaks onto Wikileaks. then Assange walks for the same reason Ellsberg walked. FBI used illegal tactics to persecute Ellsberg before his trial, which the govt was too embarassed about revealing to continue his prosecution.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Do you have proof of that? If so you should definitely send it to NYT, WaPo, etc.
Yc4win 6y ago
Surely.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Though he did suffer some technical difficulties, he did not testify as the court ruled his testimony was not relevant to the case. Subtly is not even necessary.
- belorn 6y ago
  The paragraphs in the article. "In the United Kingdom, Assange’s legal team has been allowed to enter this evidence into the public record. However, during a potential trial in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense." "The Central Criminal Court in London was prepared for El Masri to testify. An interpreter was lined up for the ninth day of proceedings. However, technical problems prevented him from addressing the court beyond his written statement. Prosecutors also objected to El Masri giving live testimony. According to Court News UK reporter Charlie Jones, that prompted Assange to stand up and proclaim, "I will not accept you censoring a torture victim's statement to this court.""
  - luckylion 6y ago
    How do judges generally deal with that kind of situation? "Oh, the connection's not working? Ah well, moving on, we're ignoring this witness"?
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Other sources I've seen disagree, that Charlie Jones tweet blames the translator, and the prosecution has been discussing blocking this testimony for a few days now. https://consortiumnews.com/2020/09/18/assange-hearing-day-nine-el-masris-story-is-told-in-court/ https://consortiumnews.com/2020/09/18/assange-hearing-day-ni...
    - acqq 6y ago
      Another report: https://assangecourt.report/september-18-morning https://assangecourt.report/september-18-morning "Mr El-Masri was due to give evidence by video link, but, after a legal argument, presiding judge Vanessa Baraitser decided that it would be sufficient for his statement to be read to the court and he need not appear."
goatinaboat 6y ago
does anyone believe that there were actual “technical glitches” preventing this guy from testifying on video about his CIA torture? FTA: it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Assange is accused of 17 counts of violating the Espionage Act
- girvo 6y ago
  In the US. That doesn’t apply here yet.
acqq 6y ago
The article about NSA "getting ISIS" mentioned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24520757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24520757 Once there, see the posts by bashinator and _kbh_ for other sources. Back to the topic here, the "technical glitches" were present throughout the process, as reported day after day on: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ E.g. "This hearing has frequently been interrupted by the strange incompetence of the Ministry of Justice in establishing simple videolinks." "It was not Professor Feldstein’s fault the day finished in confused anti-climax. The court was unable to make the video technology work. For ten broken minutes out of about forty Feldstein was briefly able to give evidence, and even this was completely unsatisfactory as he and Mark Summers were repeatedly speaking over each other on the link." Also playing with the times: "Daniel Ellsberg was to give evidence this afternoon. Edward Fitzgerald QC applied for his videolink evidence to be heard at 3.15pm [(in England)] which is 07.15am in California where Dan lives. Baraitser insisted it could not be put back beyond 2.30 pm, thus forcing an 89 year old man [Daniel Ellsberg] to give evidence at 6.30am [(his local time)]. Simply stunning." The use of internet was also intentionally restricted: The judge "explained this by stating that the public could normally observe from within the courtroom, where she could control their behaviour. But if they had remote access, she could not control their behaviour and this was not in the “interests of justice”."
- sfjailbird 6y ago
  Shouldn't they just postpone the proceedings until the "technical issues" are fixed?
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    Yes. For those unfamiliar with video and phone testimony during court proceedings, even when they technically work, the defense doesn't have the same ability to normal cross-examination or monitoring that correct procedures are followed. It's like the case is always going off the rails. An example is if somebody quotes from a document on the phone during a trial, but the document hasn't been submitted or cannot be found. What do you do next? Ask for a continuation for that one document? How about the second one? What if the reading is incorrect? So to even attempt a bad video link is an injustice.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
I find conspiracy theories exciting and compelling, but intellectually hollow. They are like junk food. They can even be right sometimes, just as pizza can nourish you. But we are better off setting them aside and sticking with the mundane issues of electing sensible representatives, supporting investigative journalism, engaging in fact-based discourse.
- curtis3389 6y ago
  I'm not convinced we are better off ignoring all conspiracy theories. There are real conspiracies to break the law in the world, and some of them have been perpetrated by the US government. We have to look at the merits of each theory and decide whether it's batshit or not. Global conspiracy to fake a pandemic? Doesn't seem possible. A couple dudes in the CIA harassing a dude they tortured and then threatened to mess with if he talked? Not impossible. The criminal acts the US government has been up to raise serious questions regarding what you suggest we do: > electing sensible representatives how can you do this when your own government harasses and intimidates people it doesn't like? > supporting investigative journalism how can there be investigative journalism if receiving information could turn out to be a felony if it's the wrong information? > engaging in fact-based discourse how can you do this when your own government is hiding relevant facts from you?
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    You raise good points. Moderation in everything. A conspiracy theory is just one possible explanation of events. There is nothing wrong with attempting validate it while also considering other possible explanations. The harm comes when a shadowy cabal is one’s answer to everything.
- mistermann 6y ago
  Conspiracy theories are ideas. Any particular theory may be 100% right, 100% wrong, somewhere in between, or it may be unknown/unknowable (too complicated or difficult to measure, the facts are classified, etc), like any other idea. > But we are better off setting them aside... How might a person know such a thing without doing something like running a parallel universe and trying the two approaches?

elmo2you 6y ago

> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime? If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never will, even for that specific fact only. In fact, any country that signed and ratified the UN's UDHR, should be barred from extraditing anyone to the USA. Especially for cases like these. If this involved an African, Asian or a Middle Eastern country, the USA and EU would no doubt threaten with bombing the country into submission, if they would continue to violate basic human right in order to cover up their criminal actions.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
Exactly. A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music. It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act. As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happening to Assange in the West. P.S. His prosecution isn't even about the 2016 election, however you feel about that, it's about him exposing war crimes committed by the U.S. government, killing civilians, including knowingly journalists and laughing about it.
- chupasaurus 6y ago
  Snowden avoids the prosecution because even on a public trial he will get a life-long sentence since Espionage Act doesn't have an exemption for acting in the public interest.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    Right. What did I say differently?
- justanotheranon 6y ago

malux85 6y ago

That was painful to read, that poor man. Absolutely disgusting behaviour from the US.

Yaggo 6y ago
It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  > It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.
  - squarefoot 6y ago
    > Is not the US people in any case, is their government. This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Identifying people with their government choices is the 1st step towards building hatred that will be used to convince weak minded citizen to enroll and invade that country. Most wars happened because governments screwed their own people convincing them there were enemies ready to kill them, where in fact there was nobody.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      Still, tacit responsibility applies. They ignore and benefit from these acts.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Well, you still get a dissonance, right? Either the US is a democracy, and the People are responsible, or it isn't, in which case the People are deluding themselves.

Oricle 6y ago

The Jews are squeezing so hard now even average joe(80% are born followers) is seeing the wizard behind the curtain! Prescott Bush made the cia for gods sake lol. These people have dominated for 4000 years until Christians fought back, who were gentiles who knew the teaching because of jesus, the king of the Jews, who sent 12 opposites out to teach the gentiles. The isralites(Jews) killed their own king and denounce him to this day! Even Muslims, a religion that came along way after this fact 2000 years ago accepts the lamb of god, jesus. Not Jews! They the only ones calling themselves gods chosen, no one else! They lack empathy, its Real simple really! That's how they do what they do. Hard for most gentiles to understand, you know, been empathetic and all

fit2rule 6y ago

Its also preposterous that Americans will continue to justify these heinous acts as "might makes right", and then go on with their day, ignoring their states immense crimes against humanity in their effort to 'get theirs'... but yeah, drop the ol' "Ma' Russians!" into the conversations, and heads explode. There is literally no difference between the chemical castration of Assange inside a prison, and what "th' Russians" can do with a tea cup. One is covert and duplicitous, and the other is overt - but the message is the same: Journalists who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state. It seems we are in the quandary of the masses. Until Americans start feeling the repercussions of their states war crimes and crimes against humanity, they will simply allow them to continue to occur. Making further terrorism pretty much inevitable, on one side, and further leaks from real patriots, on the other side. Anyway .. Assange is the tip of the ice berg. For as long as Americans continue to ignore the burning piles of rubble that are the product of their state, the leaks will continue.

oarsinsync 6y ago
I’m going to ignore all the subjective incendiary rhetoric and focus on this (slightly edited) line: > [Those] who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state. This is an interesting point, considering Snowdon made public improper behaviour, which resulted in him fleeing the country, while (at least some of) the improper behaviour has been declared illegal behaviour by a court of law. Meanwhile Snowdon remains persona non grata.
- malux85 6y ago
  I wonder if we can manipulate trump into freeing Assange and Snowden under the narrative “These heros exposed Obama’s crimes, you can be the hero who frees them” (I know they are not “Obama’s” crimes but that’s the only way to get trump engaged, or maybe just “democrats” crimes) I think he would run with it if only it didn’t set president for whistleblowers to blow the whistle on whatever he has done...I dont think he thinks deeply enough to consider secondary effects but those around him may
  - acqq 6y ago

dsign 6y ago

Let's see what the British court does; I just hope they don't bring more shame to the country.

RobertoG 6y ago
I don't know the particulars of this case or the UK, so, maybe I'm wrong, but this is probably already decided. The way this kind of thing is done is by managing that the case goes to the "proper" judge.
- pftf 6y ago
  From what I've seen so far, this is just a show trial for them to go through the motions. Assange is going to be extradited to the US and there's nothing anyone can do about it, short of breaking him out of his imprisonment.
  - jMyles 6y ago
    > short of breaking him out of his imprisonment. Is anyone strategizing around this? Do they accept donations?
9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
They managed to kill Assange already, all is left is a human corpse still barely functioning and the result of the case is just facade.

doublesCs 6y ago

> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total sensory deprivation—carried out in the presence of state officials of Macedonia and within its jurisdiction.” > Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation, the aim being to cause Mr. Masri severe pain and suffering in order to obtain information,” the ECHR additionally found. > (...) > “The U.S. diplomatic cables revealed the extent of pressure brought upon the German authorities (and in parallel, relevant Spanish authorities) not to act upon the clear evidence of criminal acts by the USA even though by then exposed,” Goetz added. Then some Americans are confused that many in the western world don't like American influence. I find it outrageous that these things happen, and I wouldn't want my government to consider such a country an ally.

yodsanklai 6y ago
I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
- tda 6y ago
  I know these is controversial, but this is what I personally think: (and even though a lot of this continued during Obama) Every American that voted for Bush' second term is partly responsible. It is evidently clear where the most political pressure to act like this has come from. Don't forget the NSADP was democratically elected. Every vote for the GOP is one to further legitimise these practices, and every voter is personally responsible for the way your country has headed as the writing was clearly on the wall. Just as ever member of the NSDAP has some responsibility for the holocaust, it should have been very clear to anyone paying attention that that party had some pretty extreme and objectionable view

yodsanklai 6y ago

What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).

mantap 6y ago
The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  Does the USA have a left today? The right who voted for the new deal are left of today’s left. Today’s left are more right than yesterday’s right.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    They do, but it isn't represented in either of their two parties. The Liberal party and the Far Right party both do their best to ignore the leftists. That said, at the local and house level there is an increase in left candidates getting elected. We'll see where that goes.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      AOC and her squad are very far left and they're mainstream.
      - ncmncm 6y ago

BostonJiao 6y ago

The empitome of American Imperialism.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well. His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published. There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is not stealing, it’s not treason, it’s not endangerment of affected government perpetrators. It’s the exposure of mass scale criminal murder and torture.

Fnoord 6y ago
The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  I don’t see any basis it could be disputed in the case of the diplomatic cables. This very witness’s testimony proves it (as his torture and subsequent efforts by the US to pressure Germany and Spain to take no action when the criminal nature of it was learned - it was only brought to light because of the leaked cables, as explained in this post). These facts render it moot what you or I might personally think about his political motivations. Not only are such speculations not a basis for any of the charges, but the very evidence itself (the cables) requires us to see the humanitarian imperative that they be leaked and thus to view leakers and publishers as whistleblowers, setting all speculated internal motives we can’t prove (and which don’t supersede the moral imperative here) aside. In the case of the DNC email leaks, I could see a better argument that it was political, but then it also wouldn’t matter. None of the Espionage Act charges or accusations of putting US agents in grave harm are based on leaked DNC emails, only Iraq War leaks and the diplomatic cables. It would be awfully hard to prove any serious harm from publishing the DNC emails - and also the standard for publishers protected in that case is much higher. Keep in mind all that is proved that he did is publish them (no different than tons of other news outlets).

jedimind 6y ago

That's fantastic of him. I wish more people would support Assange and realise that this sort of treatment is unacceptable.

dash2 6y ago

This is your regular reminder that Russian interference in the US election of 2016 took the form of discouraging Democrats to vote by telling them that both parties were just the same. So, when Hacker News is suddenly full of topics like this, with commenters earnestly agreeing with each other that both parties are just the same and nothing will ever change, it’s worth being a little skeptical.

stanski 6y ago

Not trying to be extra cynical but it sounds like they should've just disappeared the guy after torturing him. I wonder if the people responsible aren't kicking themselves now for not doing it. Unless there was a lot media or government attention in this case, it'd be quite easy to point the blame at some terrorist group in Afghanistan and walk away.

somurzakov 6y ago

wow, what a shithole this CIA is. Not different from Russia's GRU/KGB

supergirl 6y ago
it's much worse and 10x bigger budget