6 ms·

I'm not convinced we're worse off than in previous decades. Granted, the type of views that are "offensive" changed and there were some clear power shifts (and

I'm not convinced we're worse off than in previous decades. Granted, the type of views that are "offensive" changed and there were some clear power shifts (and from your statement I assume you're on the losing side of that shift), but having to conceal your views for fear of retribution was always a thing.

danielahn 6y ago
Yes - and even from the government - consider McCarthyism or Hoover's FBI and the civil rights movement. This fear of saying the wrong thing seems to say a lot more about the expanding reach of both corporations and individuals (and for individuals, the growing scale of memetic behavior) rather than some change in attitude towards free speech.
xfitm3 6y ago
We absolutely are. We're more divided than ever. I am on the losing side of the shift. I never had to conceal my views for fear of retribution before. I could be in an echo chamber, but I am not alone in this sentiment.
- rjtavares 6y ago
  In the 90s some politicians tried to ban gangsta rap, and there was an official policy that "prohibited any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing their sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces". I'm not trying to negate your experience. I'm just adding context about other people's experience in a recent past.
  - xfitm3 6y ago
    I'm not claiming the past was perfect. Some changes are absolutely positive. Here's my anecdote. I look back at films from the 80s and 90s where free speech was discussed or otherwise a component of the plot. It was unthinkable to censor thoughts, or allow the government to spy and collect data on the citizens. Both of these notions seem to have disappeared.
    - rjtavares 6y ago
      Government spying was unthinkable in the 80s? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333
    - 1270018000 6y ago
      Private companies censoring isn't a new thing. Regardless, information is shared as such a rate now that comparing them to anecdotes from the 80s isn't even applicable. I'd have trouble believing a radio talk show host from the 80s would host self-proclaimed neo nazis like Joe Rogan has. If anything, speech is so free now that we see opinions that wouldn't have seen the light of day a few decades ago. Which is why content hosters are having to tackle the question of what they allow, and hopefully they make the right decision.
      - ithkuil 6y ago
        Did Joe Rogan literally proclaim himself as a neo-nazi or is it a hyperbole? Genuinely curious, since a quick web search didn't shed any light in that question
        drlobster 6y ago
        I had to read the paragraph a few times, but I think what is being said is that "Joe has hosted self proclaimed neo-Nazis'.
        ithkuil 6y ago
        oh sorry I totally misparsed the sentence
        dkdk8283 6y ago
        Which is completely acceptable. Everyone deserves the chance to talk. You don’t have listen.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    I think the big shift is that back then everything wasn't recorded. This made it so that limitations on speech were dependent on where you spoke and with whom. Nowadays everything can be recorded and outrage spreads faster too.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  I find this view difficult to square with the fact that not too long ago we were censoring and blacklisting communists, and the lingering sentiment is not “whoa, we were really against free speech for a while there” but “communism is evil”.
- youareignorant 6y ago
  Yeah we are more divided than ever, even more so than that time we owned human being and fought a war over that.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
chmod775 6y ago
Now I don't know what this was like previously, but nowadays one of the most common travel advice for vacations in the US is "Do not talk about politics with Americans. It's not a good topic for dinner conversation over there." Make of that what you will. Now what I've been wondering after hearing that advice multiple times is: What do Americans talk about at dinner and other occasions? Because here political issues is about half of a typical dinner conversation, the other half being recounting recent news and events. Even most of the jokes we make are political... I probably wouldn't know what to talk about.
- rjtavares 6y ago
  If you're actually interested in the topic, google for a bit and you'll learn that is an old advice. Here's a post about it: https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/never_talk_about_religion_or_politics_etiquette_rule https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/nev...
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Many cultures frown on turning dinner time into debate time. It's been that way for generations. They talk about politics among family and friends or people with similar opinions.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Where is this travel advice coming from? It sounds like typical cultural ignorance to me. I'm American and (when I lived there) would have no qualms talking about politics with seemingly everyone regardless of meal time. There are certainly some people who will have a stronger response these days due to increased polarization, but if you speak sensibly and thoughtfully it's difficult to see it becoming an issue.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    I dunno, seems consistent with my experience in the midatlantic/northeast. politics is absolutely on the table with close friends and my family. outside of that, I find people usually avoid discussing politics unless they are confident everyone else present already agrees with them.
koonsolo 6y ago
Nowadays you seem to get fired when telling a "dongle" joke privately to another colleague, but someone overheard it. Sorry, but that is absolutely crazy. I have a few fun colleagues that tell jokes all the time. If they get fired for this, I'm instantly quitting.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  That mostly a tech "scene" thing, not outside the world of competitive performativity at non-academic tech conferences and Twitter.
- rjtavares 6y ago
  Just searched for that story, and it is indeed unfortunate. I'll grant you that social media and current climate created a new phenomenon of "mob justice" for inappropriate opinions or comments, but in the opposite direction people are less afraid of management/ownership than they were before (the victims of which are sometimes today's mob). I'm genuinely interested to know what the net result is.

danielahn 6y ago

Yes - and even from the government - consider McCarthyism or Hoover's FBI and the civil rights movement. This fear of saying the wrong thing seems to say a lot more about the expanding reach of both corporations and individuals (and for individuals, the growing scale of memetic behavior) rather than some change in attitude towards free speech.

xfitm3 6y ago

We absolutely are. We're more divided than ever. I am on the losing side of the shift. I never had to conceal my views for fear of retribution before. I could be in an echo chamber, but I am not alone in this sentiment.

rjtavares 6y ago
In the 90s some politicians tried to ban gangsta rap, and there was an official policy that "prohibited any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing their sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces". I'm not trying to negate your experience. I'm just adding context about other people's experience in a recent past.
- xfitm3 6y ago
  I'm not claiming the past was perfect. Some changes are absolutely positive. Here's my anecdote. I look back at films from the 80s and 90s where free speech was discussed or otherwise a component of the plot. It was unthinkable to censor thoughts, or allow the government to spy and collect data on the citizens. Both of these notions seem to have disappeared.
  - rjtavares 6y ago
    Government spying was unthinkable in the 80s? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333
  - 1270018000 6y ago
    Private companies censoring isn't a new thing. Regardless, information is shared as such a rate now that comparing them to anecdotes from the 80s isn't even applicable. I'd have trouble believing a radio talk show host from the 80s would host self-proclaimed neo nazis like Joe Rogan has. If anything, speech is so free now that we see opinions that wouldn't have seen the light of day a few decades ago. Which is why content hosters are having to tackle the question of what they allow, and hopefully they make the right decision.
    - ithkuil 6y ago
      Did Joe Rogan literally proclaim himself as a neo-nazi or is it a hyperbole? Genuinely curious, since a quick web search didn't shed any light in that question
      - drlobster 6y ago
        I had to read the paragraph a few times, but I think what is being said is that "Joe has hosted self proclaimed neo-Nazis'.
        ithkuil 6y ago
        oh sorry I totally misparsed the sentence
        dkdk8283 6y ago
        Which is completely acceptable. Everyone deserves the chance to talk. You don’t have listen.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  I think the big shift is that back then everything wasn't recorded. This made it so that limitations on speech were dependent on where you spoke and with whom. Nowadays everything can be recorded and outrage spreads faster too.
jakelazaroff 6y ago
I find this view difficult to square with the fact that not too long ago we were censoring and blacklisting communists, and the lingering sentiment is not “whoa, we were really against free speech for a while there” but “communism is evil”.
youareignorant 6y ago
Yeah we are more divided than ever, even more so than that time we owned human being and fought a war over that.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

chmod775 6y ago

Now I don't know what this was like previously, but nowadays one of the most common travel advice for vacations in the US is "Do not talk about politics with Americans. It's not a good topic for dinner conversation over there." Make of that what you will. Now what I've been wondering after hearing that advice multiple times is: What do Americans talk about at dinner and other occasions? Because here political issues is about half of a typical dinner conversation, the other half being recounting recent news and events. Even most of the jokes we make are political... I probably wouldn't know what to talk about.

rjtavares 6y ago
If you're actually interested in the topic, google for a bit and you'll learn that is an old advice. Here's a post about it: https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/never_talk_about_religion_or_politics_etiquette_rule https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/nev...
pseudalopex 6y ago
Many cultures frown on turning dinner time into debate time. It's been that way for generations. They talk about politics among family and friends or people with similar opinions.
vinay427 6y ago
Where is this travel advice coming from? It sounds like typical cultural ignorance to me. I'm American and (when I lived there) would have no qualms talking about politics with seemingly everyone regardless of meal time. There are certainly some people who will have a stronger response these days due to increased polarization, but if you speak sensibly and thoughtfully it's difficult to see it becoming an issue.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I dunno, seems consistent with my experience in the midatlantic/northeast. politics is absolutely on the table with close friends and my family. outside of that, I find people usually avoid discussing politics unless they are confident everyone else present already agrees with them.

koonsolo 6y ago

Nowadays you seem to get fired when telling a "dongle" joke privately to another colleague, but someone overheard it. Sorry, but that is absolutely crazy. I have a few fun colleagues that tell jokes all the time. If they get fired for this, I'm instantly quitting.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
That mostly a tech "scene" thing, not outside the world of competitive performativity at non-academic tech conferences and Twitter.
rjtavares 6y ago
Just searched for that story, and it is indeed unfortunate. I'll grant you that social media and current climate created a new phenomenon of "mob justice" for inappropriate opinions or comments, but in the opposite direction people are less afraid of management/ownership than they were before (the victims of which are sometimes today's mob). I'm genuinely interested to know what the net result is.