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This job reminds me a lot of when I lifeguarded in high school during the summer. You sit on a chair in the sun, waiting for something to happen. The job is no

This job reminds me a lot of when I lifeguarded in high school during the summer. You sit on a chair in the sun, waiting for something to happen. The job is not stimulating, which further increases the difficulty of recognising if someone is in trouble - try watching some rescue training videos [0]. While a lot of the interventions a lifeguard does are prophylactic (“No running!” vs administering first aid to someone who tripped and split their skull open), interventions did happen a few times a month. To make sure those interventions happen when needed, pools implement processes to better manage the risk. These processes seem to be the key difference between that job and this one. Rotations every 30 minutes, a manager actively observing for engagement, and overlapping zones of coverage all were instrumental in 0 fatalities - I can recall examples where each of those saved at least one person’s life. Redundancy, supervision, and engagement are what make a pool safe. While I think this woman failed to do her job and may be punished for it, it is important to question why your community pool has better safeguards than an experimental car. [0] https://youtu.be/4sFuULOY5ik https://youtu.be/4sFuULOY5ik

randycupertino 6y ago
I think the key difference is the backup driver was watching a video on her phone when the accident happened. I was a summer lifeguard on the ocean for many years (SOYA summer! Sit On Your Ass Summer), and we would have been fired if browsed our phones while on duty.
- alextheparrot 6y ago
  I’m in complete agreement with your assessment on that. If the processes I mentioned above weren’t in place and someone drowned while the lifeguard was watching a video or reading a magazine, they should be held to account. I’m remiss to completely remove individual agency from scenarios like this. The processes just help make those failure cases less accessible because you get fired before it happens. That’s really the fundamental point, these processes exist because those failure cases are understood, acknowledged, and chosen to be managed diligently. SOYA summer was a lot of fun, though an office job still qualifies for the acronym even if you don’t get a great tan and have a lot less fun, heh.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > I think the key difference is the backup driver was watching a video on her phone when the accident happened. Blaming the individual would not solve the problem. The question that the parent comment tries to answer is "what do we do so the backup driver does not watch his phone?". That would save lives. To blame the individual and move on will kill more people in the future.
  - Tempest1981 6y ago
    > a manager actively observing for engagement Maybe this is the key.
    - watwut 6y ago
      The other ones are necessary too. The issue is that people will loose attention - it is not possible for humans to not loose attention when nothing is happening for long time. And even when things are happening, it is not possible for humans to keep attention all the time. The control is one thing, but manager can prevent you to look at phone and manager is creating interruption from monotony. The rotation is necessary to deal with human hardware which requires breaks (and moving car requries faster responses then drowning person). The overlapping zones deal with fact that breaks and manager being present is still not enough.
      - randycupertino 6y ago
        > it is not possible for humans to not loose attention when nothing is happening for long time. And even when things are happening, it is not possible for humans to keep attention all the time. But they could watch the road instead of watching their phones. It would be a pretty simple fix- have the backup driver keep their phone in the back of the car. I've had jobs where we had to lock our phones in lockers at the start of our shift, it's not uncommon. Also, disagree that moving car requires faster responses than drowning person- kids often gently slip under the water in an instant and it's generally quiet and fast, never a big splash or dog paddling "help me!" commotion like in the movies. And longer without oxygen to the brain can lead to more permanent brain death, so I'd say both activities require equal vigilance.
- dathinab 6y ago
  But would that really have made a difference if that person would have starred straight forward instead. If you don't expect something to happen reaction times can be really slow. Which is also how it differs from the lifeguard job, there you always expect that from time to time something will happen, but as far as I can tell many people would not expect this when they use a self-driving car. Because you know, the car is already meant to be able to handle this. Or at least this is how many people think about self driving cars I think.
  - kevinmchugh 6y ago
    Hopefully people hired to be the safety check on self-driving cars are being trained that the cars are not perfect and require human oversight.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  The point is to not place someone in a position where their attention would likely wander (for example not having active shifts over 30 minutes in the case of a lifeguard). Safety is about proactively defending against human nature, not blaming people after the fact.
  - tobyhinloopen 6y ago
    Again, it’s not the attention wandering away. It’s watching a video while driving a 2000kg steel vehicle
- hugh-avherald 6y ago
  Indeed. But to me the distinction between your experience and the driver's is that you were supervised and compliance was checked. If no-one was (at least occasionally) making sure the driver was always focusing on the road ahead, it was inevitable that the driver would not think the rule was that serious, and lapses were bound to occur.
caf 6y ago
I assume this is the reason that casino croupiers are rotated frequently off and on the floor as well, although there of course it is about protecting profits rather than safety.
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
One technical "solution" to this might be to have the computer ask (voice) questions on the road - such as are we approaching a right or left bend, or was that a red car we overtook. These could measure attention to the road and reaction speed. It is also quite easy to see that being put in place for normal driven vehicles - one could imagine a insurance requirement to prove attention of the driver during the journey. It will of course totally ruin the illusion of being driven smoothly by robot but I think that should be canned asap. but I agree - the company is also liable for failing to have processes to stop the inattentive behaviour. IF you were on duty watching your phone, and no manager spotted this, or took away the phone they are just as liable.
- DharmaPolice 6y ago
  I think the technical solution has merit. It doesn't need to be voice, presumably you could rig something up on a steering wheel with buttons to press to record every time they go past an intersection or something. Something to force them to watch the road and keep their hands in the right area. You're right though, that does dent the image of unattended self-driving but we've already demonstrated that isn't what this was. People are condemning this person for being on their phone (and fair enough), but if I am sitting in a comfortable vehicle with nothing to do / read then I will fall asleep soon enough. I think this is quite common.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
But don't lifeguards often work in teams of at least two, frequently (e.g. every 15 - 30 minutes) alternating simply because of that limited attention span?
- fredophile 6y ago
  They do. That's why the OP mentioned rotations and redundancy. Uber could easily put two people in the vehicle and have them swap seats every 20-30 minutes. The person in the driver seat would be responsible for watching the road and reacting while the person in the passenger seat supervises.
- kohtatsu 6y ago
  It's okay self-driving cars aren't yet single seater.
Jugurtha 6y ago
Not a lifeguard, but I pull several people from the water during the summer. I once pulled someone to the shore in Tunisia, a few feet from where the lifeguard was standing. He neither noticed the person being in trouble, nor the rescue. A couple of elderly Germans saw us arrive and hurried to alert him but he had his attention directed elsewhere and didn't even notice them talking to him. They were outraged in an adorable elderly manner.
schaefer 6y ago
>To make sure those interventions happen when needed, pools implement processes to better manage the risk. Thankfully, this is already happening in the self driving space as well! At least as far as research and development efforts are concerned. I used to work right next to another self-driving tech company: Aptiva in Las Vegas. Several times a day, I would see their R&D cars launching from headquarters, and there were always two backup drivers. In addition, the backup driver in the passenger seat always has a clip board up and was actively taking notes. A “two man rule“ is common practice in critical, high risk activities. I’ve known the details of Uber’s murder of Elaine Herzberg for a long time. I read the original police reports early on[1]. And I don’t take that fatality lightly. Just the same, even on a bicycle, I always felt safe sharing the road with Aptiva R&D cars because of their two man rule, and constantly attentive drivers. [1] https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HWY18MH010-prelim.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...
- f154hfds 6y ago
  Not to be pedantic but the indictment is 'Negligent Homicide'. I believe this is involuntary manslaughter. The reason I bring this up is because I see people misuse the term 'murder' on HN often, leading their readers to surmise the possibility of intent when that is not at all the charge.
wutbrodo 6y ago
Yup, I've had experience with safety drivers in autonomous vehicles that are extremely professional and that I feel very safe with. After seeing the Uber video, the first red flag for me was the fact that she was alone; the second was (obviously) the fact that she was watching a video on her phone, which means either she was being criminally negligent (if she had been on-shift for a short period of time) or Uber was (if she had a long, isolated shift).
1-more 6y ago
Yeah her job was basically to do a quick time event lasting several hours. Absolutely setup to fail
calyth2018 6y ago
> it is important to question why your community pool has better safeguards than an experimental car. Because the people responsible for the experimental car doesn't give a shit and tries to wash themselves of their responsibilty by placing all the blame on the safety driver. Don't get me wrong, she's responsible, but not nearly 100%.
jdeibele 6y ago
Never worked as a lifeguard but have 3 kids who like to swim and who have survived to be teenagers. The lifeguards at our local pools rotate about every 10 minutes. It seems like changing position and also that you have some interaction would be helpful to staying focused. It's hard to replicate that in a car but perhaps something that was asking for data - "What's the speed right now? Are there any fire hydrants in sight?" - that could be flagged if contradicted could weed out drivers who are watching a movie or nodding off.

randycupertino 6y ago

I think the key difference is the backup driver was watching a video on her phone when the accident happened. I was a summer lifeguard on the ocean for many years (SOYA summer! Sit On Your Ass Summer), and we would have been fired if browsed our phones while on duty.

alextheparrot 6y ago
I’m in complete agreement with your assessment on that. If the processes I mentioned above weren’t in place and someone drowned while the lifeguard was watching a video or reading a magazine, they should be held to account. I’m remiss to completely remove individual agency from scenarios like this. The processes just help make those failure cases less accessible because you get fired before it happens. That’s really the fundamental point, these processes exist because those failure cases are understood, acknowledged, and chosen to be managed diligently. SOYA summer was a lot of fun, though an office job still qualifies for the acronym even if you don’t get a great tan and have a lot less fun, heh.
Hokusai 6y ago
> I think the key difference is the backup driver was watching a video on her phone when the accident happened. Blaming the individual would not solve the problem. The question that the parent comment tries to answer is "what do we do so the backup driver does not watch his phone?". That would save lives. To blame the individual and move on will kill more people in the future.
- Tempest1981 6y ago
  > a manager actively observing for engagement Maybe this is the key.
  - watwut 6y ago
    The other ones are necessary too. The issue is that people will loose attention - it is not possible for humans to not loose attention when nothing is happening for long time. And even when things are happening, it is not possible for humans to keep attention all the time. The control is one thing, but manager can prevent you to look at phone and manager is creating interruption from monotony. The rotation is necessary to deal with human hardware which requires breaks (and moving car requries faster responses then drowning person). The overlapping zones deal with fact that breaks and manager being present is still not enough.
    - randycupertino 6y ago
      > it is not possible for humans to not loose attention when nothing is happening for long time. And even when things are happening, it is not possible for humans to keep attention all the time. But they could watch the road instead of watching their phones. It would be a pretty simple fix- have the backup driver keep their phone in the back of the car. I've had jobs where we had to lock our phones in lockers at the start of our shift, it's not uncommon. Also, disagree that moving car requires faster responses than drowning person- kids often gently slip under the water in an instant and it's generally quiet and fast, never a big splash or dog paddling "help me!" commotion like in the movies. And longer without oxygen to the brain can lead to more permanent brain death, so I'd say both activities require equal vigilance.
dathinab 6y ago
But would that really have made a difference if that person would have starred straight forward instead. If you don't expect something to happen reaction times can be really slow. Which is also how it differs from the lifeguard job, there you always expect that from time to time something will happen, but as far as I can tell many people would not expect this when they use a self-driving car. Because you know, the car is already meant to be able to handle this. Or at least this is how many people think about self driving cars I think.
- kevinmchugh 6y ago
  Hopefully people hired to be the safety check on self-driving cars are being trained that the cars are not perfect and require human oversight.
kstenerud 6y ago
The point is to not place someone in a position where their attention would likely wander (for example not having active shifts over 30 minutes in the case of a lifeguard). Safety is about proactively defending against human nature, not blaming people after the fact.
- tobyhinloopen 6y ago
  Again, it’s not the attention wandering away. It’s watching a video while driving a 2000kg steel vehicle
hugh-avherald 6y ago
Indeed. But to me the distinction between your experience and the driver's is that you were supervised and compliance was checked. If no-one was (at least occasionally) making sure the driver was always focusing on the road ahead, it was inevitable that the driver would not think the rule was that serious, and lapses were bound to occur.

caf 6y ago

I assume this is the reason that casino croupiers are rotated frequently off and on the floor as well, although there of course it is about protecting profits rather than safety.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago

One technical "solution" to this might be to have the computer ask (voice) questions on the road - such as are we approaching a right or left bend, or was that a red car we overtook. These could measure attention to the road and reaction speed. It is also quite easy to see that being put in place for normal driven vehicles - one could imagine a insurance requirement to prove attention of the driver during the journey. It will of course totally ruin the illusion of being driven smoothly by robot but I think that should be canned asap. but I agree - the company is also liable for failing to have processes to stop the inattentive behaviour. IF you were on duty watching your phone, and no manager spotted this, or took away the phone they are just as liable.

DharmaPolice 6y ago
I think the technical solution has merit. It doesn't need to be voice, presumably you could rig something up on a steering wheel with buttons to press to record every time they go past an intersection or something. Something to force them to watch the road and keep their hands in the right area. You're right though, that does dent the image of unattended self-driving but we've already demonstrated that isn't what this was. People are condemning this person for being on their phone (and fair enough), but if I am sitting in a comfortable vehicle with nothing to do / read then I will fall asleep soon enough. I think this is quite common.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

But don't lifeguards often work in teams of at least two, frequently (e.g. every 15 - 30 minutes) alternating simply because of that limited attention span?

fredophile 6y ago
They do. That's why the OP mentioned rotations and redundancy. Uber could easily put two people in the vehicle and have them swap seats every 20-30 minutes. The person in the driver seat would be responsible for watching the road and reacting while the person in the passenger seat supervises.
kohtatsu 6y ago
It's okay self-driving cars aren't yet single seater.

Jugurtha 6y ago

Not a lifeguard, but I pull several people from the water during the summer. I once pulled someone to the shore in Tunisia, a few feet from where the lifeguard was standing. He neither noticed the person being in trouble, nor the rescue. A couple of elderly Germans saw us arrive and hurried to alert him but he had his attention directed elsewhere and didn't even notice them talking to him. They were outraged in an adorable elderly manner.

schaefer 6y ago

>To make sure those interventions happen when needed, pools implement processes to better manage the risk. Thankfully, this is already happening in the self driving space as well! At least as far as research and development efforts are concerned. I used to work right next to another self-driving tech company: Aptiva in Las Vegas. Several times a day, I would see their R&D cars launching from headquarters, and there were always two backup drivers. In addition, the backup driver in the passenger seat always has a clip board up and was actively taking notes. A “two man rule“ is common practice in critical, high risk activities. I’ve known the details of Uber’s murder of Elaine Herzberg for a long time. I read the original police reports early on[1]. And I don’t take that fatality lightly. Just the same, even on a bicycle, I always felt safe sharing the road with Aptiva R&D cars because of their two man rule, and constantly attentive drivers. [1] https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HWY18MH010-prelim.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...

f154hfds 6y ago
Not to be pedantic but the indictment is 'Negligent Homicide'. I believe this is involuntary manslaughter. The reason I bring this up is because I see people misuse the term 'murder' on HN often, leading their readers to surmise the possibility of intent when that is not at all the charge.

wutbrodo 6y ago

Yup, I've had experience with safety drivers in autonomous vehicles that are extremely professional and that I feel very safe with. After seeing the Uber video, the first red flag for me was the fact that she was alone; the second was (obviously) the fact that she was watching a video on her phone, which means either she was being criminally negligent (if she had been on-shift for a short period of time) or Uber was (if she had a long, isolated shift).

1-more 6y ago

Yeah her job was basically to do a quick time event lasting several hours. Absolutely setup to fail

calyth2018 6y ago

> it is important to question why your community pool has better safeguards than an experimental car. Because the people responsible for the experimental car doesn't give a shit and tries to wash themselves of their responsibilty by placing all the blame on the safety driver. Don't get me wrong, she's responsible, but not nearly 100%.

jdeibele 6y ago

Never worked as a lifeguard but have 3 kids who like to swim and who have survived to be teenagers. The lifeguards at our local pools rotate about every 10 minutes. It seems like changing position and also that you have some interaction would be helpful to staying focused. It's hard to replicate that in a car but perhaps something that was asking for data - "What's the speed right now? Are there any fire hydrants in sight?" - that could be flagged if contradicted could weed out drivers who are watching a movie or nodding off.