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Bubble barriers: a smart solution to plastic pollution in rivers
- Kaibeezy 6y agoSolidly into "why didn't I think of that" territory. Who's got other examples? I'll go first: In my kitchen, I have a coffee can full of ordinary plastic clothespegs/pins that I use to clip bags shut. They work so much better than occlupanids or even purpose-made bag clips, whether you fold or spin the bag.
- jiofih 6y agoWhy not go the extra mile and use wooden pegs. Less plastic!
- atoav 6y agoI am ging to be that guy now: he already has those plastic pegs. Throwing them away and getting wooden ones may look more environmentally friendly, but it isn't. Avoiding to buy plastic in the future is a good idea. But throwing away perfectly fine plastic stuff you have to replace it with wood stuff isn't.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoThat's the case in my home. We have some supply of plastic clothespins bought years ago, and some of them just slowly migrated to the kitchen. We aren't planning to buy any kind of new ones any time soon.
- wlesieutre 6y agoI use metal binder clips for holding bags shut. Maybe they'll break eventually but I've been using the same ones for years and haven't had one break yet.
- cocoapuffs7 6y agoIf this is the main idea, move it further up on the page if it doesn't break your design goals. I skipped the initial text and went right to it. https://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Side-view-TGBB.gif https://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03... Great idea. Has it been tested?
- DoingIsLearning 6y agoThey claim they are working with Deltares which if you are not familiar is a reference research institute in the Netherlands for Waterway management. On top of the principle you linked I think an important feature of their concept is that the bubble barrier is diagonal to the waterway so that the debrie is accumulated and guided to a single collection point on the river bank.
- maaaaattttt 6y agoThere is a video [0] on the "more info" page [1] that presents one working implementation in Amsterdam (video is in Dutch but with good subtitles) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KwF-gf0S0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KwF-gf0S0 [1] http://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/en/amsterdam-en/ http://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/en/amsterdam-en/
- moooo99 6y agoI know that big chemical manufacturing facilities with waterway connections use a similar approach to keep chemicals from entering the waterway in case of an accident. So when it works for liquids, I'd assume it'd also work for solid objects such as plastic waste. However, I doubt this is something fishes would pass, I couldn't find anything about that that proves this claim.
- kuu 6y agoI wonder how this affects other stuff such as plankton or other kind of nutrients...
- luckylion 6y ago> How much energy does a Bubble Barrier use? > The Bubble Barrier uses compressed air to create the bubble curtain. Depending on the scale and length of the Bubble Barrier, this is done by means of a compressor. The length of the Bubble Barrier has a significant influence on the necessary energy usage. Our Bubble Barrier uses much less energy than bubble curtains that are used to separate fresh from salt water or to prevent oil spills. Based on them explicitly not wanting to give any numbers and comparing it to much larger and more difficult operations, I'm guessing this is the main issue. It may well work, but costs a lot of energy. Doing that in NW Europe feels like spending a lot to achieve a little, because plastic going into the ocean is a) not primarily from rivers and b) among that which is delivered via rivers, it's not primarily from rivers in Europe.
- giarc 6y agoThere are a lot of companies developing river turbines that possible could complement this well. I have no idea if they produce the right amount of power though.
- luckylion 6y agoGood point, though you probably need a strong flow for turbines, which will be an issue for the bubble barrier. And for large rivers that are also deep (i.e. any river that is used for larger scale shipping), the infrastructure seems extreme. It's one thing to handle a 10m wide canal that's 2m deep, it's quite another to install that system on a river that's 800m across and 10m deep. I believe we'll quickly reach a level where it's not economical to do put a lot of energy into it to catch what little waste there is. On the other hand, maybe there are positive side effects, more oxygen in the water?
- cagenut 6y agoThis is interesting. There's a related "startup" tackling the problem from a different angle: https://theoceancleanup.com/ https://theoceancleanup.com/ They did some research and found that something like the top 5 or top 10 rivers in the world are the source of 80+% of the plastic in the ocean. So they came up with this plastic-filtering-barge design with hopes of placing them at key points in all the major rivers. So far four are built and in operation. Absolutely not a solution but a ton of harm reduction. https://www.youtube.com/user/TheOceanCleanup/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/TheOceanCleanup/videos
- jiofih 6y agoBoth of them hail from Amsterdam! I imagine the bubble idea might have come out of seeing the ocean cleanup barges in operation - they have the problem of interfering with boat traffic where deployed.
- drxzcl 6y agoOcean Cleanup is originally a Delft company that moved to Rotterdam. They are not "from Amsterdam".
- rzwitserloot 6y agoThe Ocean Cleanup hails from Delft. It was founded there, and the concept was 'invented' whilst the inventors were busy with an Aerospace Engineering course at the Delft University. Different province and about an hour's travel south from Amsterdam I guess the frisian province is 'Amsterdam Lake District', rotterdam is 'Amsterdam Harbour', The Hague is 'Amsterdam Government Plaza', and Delft is just 'Amsterdam - Burials of Royals + that place with the solar boats and cars and the plastic barges dept' :P NB: I think that "Amsterdam Lake District" thing really is how its marketed from time to time to attempt to distribute tourism more throughout the country. The rest a bit more tongue in cheek.
- witherk 6y agoInteresting Idea! This seems like an elegant but somewhat expensive solution. Does the power consumed by pumping tons of air 24/7 offset the ecological gains by the system? If this can stop microscopic plastic than it would probably also stop microscopic creatures. Are there shore based ecosystems that rely on those creatures coming to shore, or vice versa? Anyways still seems worth trying.
- jiofih 6y agoIf it’s wind / solar, absolutely. A compressor for that canal run is probably using 1-2KW/h, comparable to a small shop. If the compressor itself is cooled by the water you’re even putting back some of the sun or wind energy that would have gone into it :)
- TheGallopedHigh 6y agoCould even use tidal as it lies in a river
- MereInterest 6y agoYour units are wonky. I'll assume you mean 1-2 kW, a unit of power output. kW/h would be a rate of increase of power (e.g. "The generator is producing 500 kW now, and can safely ramp up at a rate of 100 kW/h.")
- badwolf 6y agoin the US Kilowatt-hour is commonly used like that, and not as a rate of change - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt-hour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt-hour
- MereInterest 6y agoThe kW*h doesn't make sense in this context, either. It is a unit of energy, and would imply a one-time cost to have bubbles made from then on.
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- spodek 6y agoFuture generations will look at our wanton use of single-use plastic like we look at leaded gasoline or cigarettes and wonder what took us so long to legislate banning poisoning our environment. A bubble barrier moves the plastic around, it doesn't decrease its production. If it helps in some small way relative to decreasing plastic production, great -- no need to let the perfect be the enemy of the good -- but let's keep it in context of decreasing production. Also, technical solutions to social and behavioral problems tend to create unintended side-effect. Have we considered them?
- aaron695 6y agoWhat's the children's book, by a classic SciFi artist in the 70s-ish with well done living in the future illustrations. One was an underwater habitat and all the fish were kept in vertical cages made of bubbles? It makes me laugh my childhood wonder turns out to be real, except it's for rubbish. [edit] The Usborne Book of the Future (1979) had it, but I'm sure it's not the only one - P16 P17 - http://calameo.download/00081642432fc0bfded26 http://calameo.download/00081642432fc0bfded26 All new ideas are old.
- crazygringo 6y agoThis is fascinating and clever. But the cynic inside me fears it would never make a difference. First of all, one common statistic is that 90% of trash in the ocean that comes from people dumping it (in rivers) comes from just 10 rivers, all in China/Asia. And if they cared about the problem, they'd already be doing something about it. But it seems like they don't. Because the real solution there is the same as what is done in the first world -- to implement actual municipal trash pickup and urban trashcans etc. If they can't even do that, I have a hard time believing they'll bother with "bubble barriers". So this seems like something first-world countries would implement... but that's not where the problem is. But second, it's also common to hear that a large majority of overall ocean plastic comes from discarded industrial fishing gear -- nets and the like. Which this obviously does nothing for. So while still very clever, I sadly don't think this could ever make a difference. We need to actually solve the much messier human problems of installing trash collection around the world and figuring out ways to monitor and punish fishers who discard their equipment.
- FeepingCreature 6y agoI don't follow. Because China don't even implement a countrywide logistics-heavy service branch, they won't bother with a cheaper, localized solution?
- crazygringo 6y agoThe countrywide logistics-heavy solution provides actual benefits to residents with cleaner cities and rivers. The catch-it-at-the-mouth-of-the-river one doesn't. It would still be expensive, but benefit only the ocean, not residents. So sadly, yes -- I can't imagine why they'd bother.
- nobodyandproud 6y agoThe Chinese do eat seafood. They don’t sacrifice growth for the environment, but passing up something relatively simple (and extremely clever) like this? I can’t think of why they wouldn’t try it.
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- tjansen 6y agoI think this may be a good solution for those countries where trash more or less accidentally ends up in rivers. But what percentage of trash ends up accidentally in the sea, and how much trash is intentionally dumped because it's cheaper or easier? I would assume that's far less than the 8 billion kilos per year quoted on the page.
- taf2 6y agoWould love to see this in action in the chesapeake bay on the east coast.
- sandworm101 6y agoI could see this working in a shallow stream meandering through the countryside. I don't see this being effective in a deep/fast river. What do those bubble nets look like in a river 50+ feet deep and moving a several mph? Remember that the bubbles get bigger as they rise. I don't think many fish will be happy to swim through a maelstrom of compressed air rushing from giant pipes on the bottom.
- giarc 6y agoYou could create steps so to speak. So across the river there would be bubble lines that are only 20% or so of the span. Then the plastic would step down until it reaches the other side and fish could swim around the bubble lines. I realized I probably didn't describe it well... he's a drawing of what I mean https://imgur.com/a/n9PdT0L https://imgur.com/a/n9PdT0L
- jorge-d 6y agoI think the best solution to avoid plastic pollution is to tax it heavily where it does not make sense, whether it's single use or not. Also I believe a nice solution to plastic recycling would be for legislators to implement a standardisation of all the bottles / food packaging / etc. so that they all use the exact same type of plastic. Then once we stop dropping tons or plastic on our ocean and polluting our soils with it, we might end up with a quite-clean environment in the next 50-70y (and pray that there are no long term effects on plastic contamination). But in the end, the best solution to plastic is definitely to stop using it.
- wazoox 6y agoHow does it compare or complement the "river cleaner" from the Ocean Cleanup?
- jackinloadup 6y agoInteresting, this claims that fish and other wildlife can pass through but they don't seem to explain how it's different from bubble barriers used to deter fish from passing into underwater construction zones related to drilling or pile driving [1]. [1] https://www.newnybridge.com/protecting-underwater-wildlife-bubble-curtains-reduce-underwater-pressure-waves-2-2/ https://www.newnybridge.com/protecting-underwater-wildlife-b...
- kungtotte 6y agoIn that article the primary purpose seems to be to reduce soundwaves rather than preventing fish from passing through, so both sources are in agreement there that it lessens soundwaves. Also the pressures could be different. It's not hard to imagine that higher pressure would act as a bigger deterrent to passing through, so maybe that's what they're using at the construction site? Both the bubble barrier page and the article you linked are fairly short on specifics though, which is a shame. It wouldn't be that hard to write out some pressures...
- jackinloadup 6y agoAgree, I hope it's a possible solution. Just thought it was interesting after hearing about the technology a few days ago in relation to sound suppression and rocket launches.
- scott31 6y agoOff topic, why is bubble sort called bubble sort? Is it because bubbles are slow?
- ORioN63 6y agoWithout looking further, I would say it's because elements bubble up as they're sorted. Edit: Wikipedia [1] seems to agree: The algorithm, which is a comparison sort, is named for the way smaller or larger elements "bubble" to the top of the list. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort
- zingplex 6y agoBecause smaller or larger items bubble up to the top of the list. If you watch a visualization you'll see what I mean.
- WhompingWindows 6y agoThere's already an existing solution for this purpose: https://www.mrtrashwheel.com/ https://www.mrtrashwheel.com/
- drfrank 6y agoThat handles plastic that's already floating, whereas this claims to bring plastic to the surface. The two solutions seem complementary.
- jtxx 6y agothis rhyme is going to be stuck in my head for a while
- eloff 6y agoHow does this let fish past? Dolphins and whales use bubble corrals as a fishing technique specifically because fish don't like crossing it. I believe it's also being tested as an alternative to shark nets. Presumably this would be a more intense bubble wall, which I would expect to seriously impede the free movement of marine species. Maybe if it were suspended near the surface of the river so fish could swim under it. That probably wouldn't let much plastic through, as this would only really be effective on floating plastics anyway.
- drran 6y agoSee it: >| | >| | | > | >| | | >| |
- eloff 6y agoYeah, that's clever, it might work.
- robocat 6y agoAlthough in the video they don’t have breaks and they have it angled to steer the rubbish towards a trap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KwF-gf0S0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KwF-gf0S0 But they could add breaks: > \ > \ > \ \ > \ > \ > [rubbishtrap] The biggest problem I could see is that it also traps leaves etc which you would ideally let past as they surely are needed for the river mouth ecosystem? Edit: also what if most of the trash is during storm events - the system wouldn’t work if that were the case.
- Aunche 6y agoIt's unfortunate that these "sexy" solutions get more attention than practical ones. Trash localized in a smaller body of water isn't much better than trash in the ocean, especially since a clogged up river will eventually start leaking trash. The most effective way to reduce ocean trash in the ocean is to build proper waste management infrastructure in developing countries. The only NGO I can find that does this is WasteAid. https://wasteaid.org https://wasteaid.org
- Retric 6y agoThe bubbles are only part of the solution. You still need a fairly straightforward extraction method and a landfill or other long term disposal method. This might add up to ~5 dump trucks an hour worth of trash for extreme rivers, but that’s not all that expensive.
- latchkey 6y agoRelated: https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2020/09/selfish-pochien-chen/ https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2020/09/selfish-pochien-chen/
- dpix 6y agoDoesn't this just encourage more plastic dumping into waterways? Now you can write it off because "it wont harm fish anymore" Lets create systems where we don't need to dump plastic in waterways at all.
- csours 6y ago"Let's create systems where we don't need to use firewalls/authentication/application patches/defensive programming" The perfect is the enemy of the good. Defense in depth is a winning strategy. To be clear: we should also not be polluting/littering/etc. That's part of defense in depth.
- SeanFerree 6y agoI think this is a great solution! We still have to wonder why so much plastic is dumped into the oceans. We have to find a biodegradable alternative to plastics. Otherwise, we are just masking the problem
- crazynick4 6y agoIf it blocks plastic, what else might it block?
- nabla9 6y agoIt would be better to have some kind of deposit system. Any plastic or plastic product importer must pay deposit per weigh of plastic. When used plastic is returned for recycling/burning etc. that deposit is paid to whoever returns it. This way waste plastic would have a price that would make it worth not to throw it away.
- erwinkle 6y agoThis technology is already implemented and being used in harbors (I've seen it in Florida) to keep the seaweed OUT of the marina. It was very impressive how well it worked
- balthasar 6y agoInspired by a Sonic the Hedgehog level.
- GordonS 6y agoInteresting! I spent some time recently looking into technical solutions for marine aquaculture industry problems, and I saw the same concept proposed as a preventative measure for salmon farms, to reduce sea lice infestation. It was referred to as a "bubble curtain", or something like that. IIRC, I may have also seen it proposed as a measure against harmful algae blooms (HABs).
- amelius 6y agoCan this be dangerous to swim through? I imagine that bubble-water has a very low specific weight, causing people to go under.
- sunkenvicar 6y agoI’m curious how much energy this consumes because compressed air is very inefficient.
- mleonhard 6y agoYou can see it work in this video: https://youtu.be/n_KwF-gf0S0 https://youtu.be/n_KwF-gf0S0