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Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking,

Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know). People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently. What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-desking, increased density, etc.), pushing the cost of an office onto employees. Even if a company "generously" gives you a $1000 allowance, that barely covers what high quality office furniture would cost, and in exchange, you pay a lot of tiny things that don't seem to be worth mentioning individually but add up to a massive cost when you take them all together over years: - the real estate - HVAC - utilities (increased water usage, electricity for the office equipment & HVAC) - maintenance for all of that (money and time) - cleaning (if your employer asked you to come in unpaid after hours to vacuum the office and scrub the office toilets, everyone would consider them crazy, and yet this is effectively what will happen with WFH) Not to speak of all the amenities and perks employers often provide, like cafeterias (often subsidized or even free). And not only will you end up paying the businesses' business expenses, you'll often do so (at least in part) with your post-tax money, i.e. depending on your tax rate, each dollar spent may be equivalent to e.g. $1.6 in lost income.

ghaff 6y ago
Really, there are only 2 costs that matter. On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money. On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever. So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone who has mostly worked remotely for years, all the other stuff is pretty trivial even given the occasional significant purchase (I had to replace my very old office chair). I already have to clean my house and/or have it done. And the delta in utilities, etc. is trivial. ADDED: Companies sometimes have covered co-working spaces. Though I suspect this will become less common.
- Retric 6y ago
  Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax. On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home. PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really scale well.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
    A couple years ago, I had to move bare metal servers to my home to continue my job working at a VR technology startup, who had just decided to forgo their offices. I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain. I fear most people were put into similar situations - perhaps not fiscally, but in a procedural sense - during this most recent mass WFH migration.
    - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
      > I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this Well, fuck that... if it's company hardware and there's no reimbursement, power gets cut to that rack at 5PM local time.
      - ethbr0 6y ago
        Just wire it into a light switch. If the switch gets flipped... shame. "I don't know what to do. I guess if you wanted to send an electrician out to install a new circuit with its own meter, things might be more reliable."
mgh2 6y ago
Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with. What pains me is seeing tech employees complain about lost perks while the rest of the population is really suffering. How comfortable do we need to be to lose the sense of reality?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  It’s part of the entire package of compensation for working at a company. If my employer cuts my pay by $30,000 and says, “you’re still making more than most the population”, I’m going to leave and go somewhere that pays me more? Is this privilege? Of course. A lot of people don’t have the luxury to go get a better job if their pay gets cut. But how does me foregoing that privilege help them? I have no idea what the point of your comment is. Are you just wanting people to feel bad because they don’t like that WFH made their life a little worse? Edit: The parent comment was edited after I started writing my comment. Said something about GP’s comment being a privileged one, amongst other things. Just for some context about where I’m coming from with my comment.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  > Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with. The key points I'm talking about are "some form of office" and I believe most people who can WFH had that. Even people who don't work in offices usually have a workplace, i.e. the utilities issue applies to them as well. Less privileged workers will be hit harder by this, because a couple hundred bucks for all the bullet points I listed each month is not a huge deal to a tech worker, but potentially a massive deal for someone who makes less. The additional perks are a tiny part of it, and subsidized (not free) cafeterias aren't uncommon even outside of tech in Germany. This will affect all office workers, not just tech.
VectorLock 6y ago
I think both big house 2 hours away and small studio 10 minutes away would both be happy about WFH. This means small studio 10 minutes away can move out of his small studio that he lives in only because its 10 minutes away. EDIT: Not to say that studio 10 minutes from work might enjoy other aspects of his living situation but if his main constraint of "must be 10 minutes from work" is lifted, that gives him much more flexibility.
- ghaff 6y ago
  The implicit assumption is that small studio 10 minutes away wants to work in a city center and therefore "making" them move to bigger digs somewhere further out is a downgrade. Which may or may not be true.
  - VectorLock 6y ago
    In any case having WFH gives them the option, as I said they could have lots of OTHER reasons they want to live there, but removing that constraint provides an additional degree of freedom.
- ck425 6y ago
  Moving isn't easy if your have a mortgage plus I don't particularly want to move. Even if I did I got a great deal on my flat and I'd have to move right out the the edge of town or to a very rough neighborhood to afford an additional room for the same price. Lastly you're ignoring that some of us genuinely like being in an office. I like the physical separation between work and home, I like seeing folk day to day and I like discussing things and working together in person.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    On the other side, those people you want to see in person all the time might not be enjoying that.
    - pacija 6y ago
Nursie 6y ago
The real estate is not a cost if you have an office setup at home anyway. As a computer programmer, why would I not? Cleaning and maintenance of that office is just part of what I do. Almost any commute is going to outweigh those factors.
- ck425 6y ago
  That's far from the case for everybody. Extra heating is looking like it'll cost me another £80-100 over winter whereas I have no commuting costs atm.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    That's barely the cost of a couple of cups of take-out coffee a week for the cold months, which I'd be far more likely to buy when at work.
    - ck425 6y ago
      Speak for yourself, I have good coffee at the office. Hell I spend way more on coffee now just to go sit somewhere that's not my main room.
      - Nursie 6y ago
        > I have good coffee at the office Then in my experience you're an outlier! I've never worked in an office with anything other than the worst bilge available for free....
    - michaelt 6y ago
      £100 is trivial if you're getting paid £100,000 If you're making £12,000 a year though? That £100 might be your entire budget for Christmas presents.
      - phillip_cypher 6y ago
        That £100 might be your entire budget for groceries. There's a real economic class difference that I think a lot of people aren't seeing here.
briandear 6y ago
So let’s give a tax cut to WFH people. Next, if you cost the employer less money, that means they are more profitable which means RSUs should become more valuable. Or, at the very least, ask for a pay raise. If your productivity is the same or greater, that shouldn’t be too hard. If you are replaceable by a cheaper worker, then that’s more of a statement i of your value rather than company economics. You can also move to a much cheaper area with much lower taxes. If my offices in Silicon Valley weren’t reopening in January, I’d already be living in Reno. “Free” food isn’t free. “Amenities” aren’t free either. Saving on the commute however, that’s a substantial savings in your time. Even if you have your commute subsidized, you aren’t likely being paid for your commute time. Getting back an hour or more per day is more valuable to me than a ping pong table or free coffee. For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process. No thanks, I like my kids to be able to walk from school to home.
  - willcipriano 6y ago
    I'd like a view of the ocean from my home office window, however I don't want it enough to pay market rates for it. You may feel otherwise and are free to spend your money as you wish.
marto1 6y ago
> massive cost when you take them all together over years I believe this is the very definition of penny wise, pound foolish. If the cost of providing an office is seriously noticeable against the (comfortable) labor of your people your company has much bigger problems than "business expenses".

ghaff 6y ago

Really, there are only 2 costs that matter. On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money. On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever. So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone who has mostly worked remotely for years, all the other stuff is pretty trivial even given the occasional significant purchase (I had to replace my very old office chair). I already have to clean my house and/or have it done. And the delta in utilities, etc. is trivial. ADDED: Companies sometimes have covered co-working spaces. Though I suspect this will become less common.

Retric 6y ago
Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax. On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home. PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really scale well.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
  A couple years ago, I had to move bare metal servers to my home to continue my job working at a VR technology startup, who had just decided to forgo their offices. I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain. I fear most people were put into similar situations - perhaps not fiscally, but in a procedural sense - during this most recent mass WFH migration.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
    > I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this Well, fuck that... if it's company hardware and there's no reimbursement, power gets cut to that rack at 5PM local time.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      Just wire it into a light switch. If the switch gets flipped... shame. "I don't know what to do. I guess if you wanted to send an electrician out to install a new circuit with its own meter, things might be more reliable."

mgh2 6y ago

Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with. What pains me is seeing tech employees complain about lost perks while the rest of the population is really suffering. How comfortable do we need to be to lose the sense of reality?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
It’s part of the entire package of compensation for working at a company. If my employer cuts my pay by $30,000 and says, “you’re still making more than most the population”, I’m going to leave and go somewhere that pays me more? Is this privilege? Of course. A lot of people don’t have the luxury to go get a better job if their pay gets cut. But how does me foregoing that privilege help them? I have no idea what the point of your comment is. Are you just wanting people to feel bad because they don’t like that WFH made their life a little worse? Edit: The parent comment was edited after I started writing my comment. Said something about GP’s comment being a privileged one, amongst other things. Just for some context about where I’m coming from with my comment.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
> Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with. The key points I'm talking about are "some form of office" and I believe most people who can WFH had that. Even people who don't work in offices usually have a workplace, i.e. the utilities issue applies to them as well. Less privileged workers will be hit harder by this, because a couple hundred bucks for all the bullet points I listed each month is not a huge deal to a tech worker, but potentially a massive deal for someone who makes less. The additional perks are a tiny part of it, and subsidized (not free) cafeterias aren't uncommon even outside of tech in Germany. This will affect all office workers, not just tech.

VectorLock 6y ago

I think both big house 2 hours away and small studio 10 minutes away would both be happy about WFH. This means small studio 10 minutes away can move out of his small studio that he lives in only because its 10 minutes away. EDIT: Not to say that studio 10 minutes from work might enjoy other aspects of his living situation but if his main constraint of "must be 10 minutes from work" is lifted, that gives him much more flexibility.

ghaff 6y ago
The implicit assumption is that small studio 10 minutes away wants to work in a city center and therefore "making" them move to bigger digs somewhere further out is a downgrade. Which may or may not be true.
- VectorLock 6y ago
  In any case having WFH gives them the option, as I said they could have lots of OTHER reasons they want to live there, but removing that constraint provides an additional degree of freedom.
ck425 6y ago
Moving isn't easy if your have a mortgage plus I don't particularly want to move. Even if I did I got a great deal on my flat and I'd have to move right out the the edge of town or to a very rough neighborhood to afford an additional room for the same price. Lastly you're ignoring that some of us genuinely like being in an office. I like the physical separation between work and home, I like seeing folk day to day and I like discussing things and working together in person.
- tayo42 6y ago
  On the other side, those people you want to see in person all the time might not be enjoying that.
  - pacija 6y ago

Nursie 6y ago

The real estate is not a cost if you have an office setup at home anyway. As a computer programmer, why would I not? Cleaning and maintenance of that office is just part of what I do. Almost any commute is going to outweigh those factors.

ck425 6y ago
That's far from the case for everybody. Extra heating is looking like it'll cost me another £80-100 over winter whereas I have no commuting costs atm.
- Nursie 6y ago
  That's barely the cost of a couple of cups of take-out coffee a week for the cold months, which I'd be far more likely to buy when at work.
  - ck425 6y ago
    Speak for yourself, I have good coffee at the office. Hell I spend way more on coffee now just to go sit somewhere that's not my main room.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      > I have good coffee at the office Then in my experience you're an outlier! I've never worked in an office with anything other than the worst bilge available for free....
  - michaelt 6y ago
    £100 is trivial if you're getting paid £100,000 If you're making £12,000 a year though? That £100 might be your entire budget for Christmas presents.
    - phillip_cypher 6y ago
      That £100 might be your entire budget for groceries. There's a real economic class difference that I think a lot of people aren't seeing here.

briandear 6y ago

So let’s give a tax cut to WFH people. Next, if you cost the employer less money, that means they are more profitable which means RSUs should become more valuable. Or, at the very least, ask for a pay raise. If your productivity is the same or greater, that shouldn’t be too hard. If you are replaceable by a cheaper worker, then that’s more of a statement i of your value rather than company economics. You can also move to a much cheaper area with much lower taxes. If my offices in Silicon Valley weren’t reopening in January, I’d already be living in Reno. “Free” food isn’t free. “Amenities” aren’t free either. Saving on the commute however, that’s a substantial savings in your time. Even if you have your commute subsidized, you aren’t likely being paid for your commute time. Getting back an hour or more per day is more valuable to me than a ping pong table or free coffee. For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process.

enriquto 6y ago
> For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process. No thanks, I like my kids to be able to walk from school to home.
- willcipriano 6y ago
  I'd like a view of the ocean from my home office window, however I don't want it enough to pay market rates for it. You may feel otherwise and are free to spend your money as you wish.

marto1 6y ago

> massive cost when you take them all together over years I believe this is the very definition of penny wise, pound foolish. If the cost of providing an office is seriously noticeable against the (comfortable) labor of your people your company has much bigger problems than "business expenses".