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I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a

I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a new one, pretty low impact as long as you have it properly sealed off. Even gets rid of some CO2. Probably better than putting lots of energy into recycling when it isn't actually efficient to do so.

cwbrandsma 6y ago
Paper isn’t bad because it breaks down quickly. Plastic has this bad habit of sticking around for 10,000 years (and longer).
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Is that so bad? I mean, it was oil in the ground and now it is plastic in the ground. It seems like a kind of carbon sequestration, where 10,000 years is a feature, no? Honestly curious.
  - pedalpete 6y ago
    As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. As plastics it is "broken down" into microplastics, and gets into things and areas it was never intended to be. It is then consumed and builds up in the systems of animals, and even eventually by us. Even your local landfill, is part of a management system, but will it really last 3,000 years? We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from. In Canada, I remember being taught "give a hoot, don't pollute", and to us, as kids, that meant "don't create trash" as much as "clean up your trash".
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Can microplastics escape landfills, or is that an issue for trash that didn't get into a landfill? > We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from. Why does it matter if it's the same spot? More importantly there's only so much oil and putting it all in landfills would not cover the planet.
      - refurb 6y ago
        Microplastics mostly come from fabric like nylon. Small fibers that can be easily broken off. Your crushed 4L milk jug in a landfill isn't much of a source of microplastics, nor is it much of a threat to the water table (I mean, we use that same plastic for food).
        yazaddaruvala 6y ago
        This doesn’t sound right. Do you have a source for this?
        LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        By crushing it you weakened the structure, creating fissures where exactly that happens, and then over time eats into the rest.
        lorenzorhoades 6y ago
        i've heard this before. It was in regards to people washing their clothes.
    - nitwit005 6y ago
      > As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. In many places we knew oil was there because it was leaking out. Some of the deposits were exposed to the surface. We have ancient records of people making use of it to make adhesive or caulk boats. Those have just tended to have gotten used up by now.
      - BlueTemplar 6y ago
        Those were probably a tiny fraction of all oil... not to mention are likely to have very different chemical properties compared to plastic ?
- Aunche 6y ago
  Shells and coral also don't decompose and turn into limestone after enough time. Plastic is more toxic, but I can't imagine it being much worse than oil shale when it's compressed. Maybe humanity's legacy in a million years will be a bunch of plastic rocks.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    Maybe a future race will dig it up to make their water bottles from. In all seriousness landfills get a really bad reputation but aren’t the worst thing in the world.
    - temikus 6y ago
      Former environmental engineer here. Landfills are not that bad indeed but only if they’re properly constructed - i.e. concrete bed poured, geological survey done beforehand and the seepage of stuff into the ground and settling is continuously monitored. The problem is that constructing _proper_ landfills is hideously expensive so regulations are skirted all over the world. Then you have problem of the stuff decomposing and seeping into groundwater, etc. It’s not all milk jugs and bottles. It’s paint, batteries, motor oil, old non-RoHs electronics that seep mercury and lead everywhere, etc. That’s the main problem with landfills.
  - 34679 6y ago
    George Carlin: "And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?” Plastic… asshole.” Full text: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/251836-we-re-so-self-important-everybody-s-going-to-save-something-now-save https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/251836-we-re-so-self-import... Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c
rnet85 6y ago
Except plastic breaks down into micro plastics and seeps into the ecosystem, unless you’re willing to hermetically seal hundreds of thousands of acres of land
randcraw 6y ago
You're not convinced... because you understand the component costs and you believe they add up favorably? Or you don't know and don't care? The answers to your suggestion start with knowing the volume of plastic, time to degrade, degradation byproduct toxicity, and alternative 'recycling' methods and their costs. There's also clear evidence that the 'current' model and practice for plastic disposal (that you endorse) is NOT safe and effective. Until you can suggest how to fix its demerits, it's unhelpful to blithely suggest we just keep doing it.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  I'm not convinced because as the article says, it's not realistic to recycle many kinds of plastic, and because I don't see the harm in safely burying garbage. In my city there is an old landfill which has now been covered in dirt and turned into a park, with a sledding hill and a bike park. If you didn't know better, you wouldn't even be able to tell it was a landfill before, and if properly managed none of that garbage will ever leak out - the city uses well water and has had no problems with contamination from the landfill. If it is less energy intensive to create new plastics rather than recycling (which seems to be the case), why not just safely bury the old plastics and make new ones, it should be better for the environment anyways. Of course you should try to reduce and reuse before throwing out plastics, but if you have to get rid of them landfills seem reasonable.
  - lorenzorhoades 6y ago
    Are you talking about Tacoma/ Ruston Area? I agree with you. Recycling is stupid; weirdly enough it's a major contributor(? Totally not the right word) to homelessness. Secondly, it's allowed to be 'disposed of' internationally. Who knows what the Chinese and Indians are doing with it. Instead of CRV at the consumer level, we should have susidies or direct payments to suppliers for reusing plastic. All the plastic that isn't 'intrinsically valuable', ends up safely in a landfill.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Degradation only matters in nature. That plastic was taken from the earth and nobody gives a damn about the toxicity of oil sitting in the ground. Nobody worries about how long it takes for it to degrade. If you bring the plastic back to where it came from you've done enough.

cwbrandsma 6y ago

Paper isn’t bad because it breaks down quickly. Plastic has this bad habit of sticking around for 10,000 years (and longer).

stickfigure 6y ago
Is that so bad? I mean, it was oil in the ground and now it is plastic in the ground. It seems like a kind of carbon sequestration, where 10,000 years is a feature, no? Honestly curious.
- pedalpete 6y ago
  As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. As plastics it is "broken down" into microplastics, and gets into things and areas it was never intended to be. It is then consumed and builds up in the systems of animals, and even eventually by us. Even your local landfill, is part of a management system, but will it really last 3,000 years? We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from. In Canada, I remember being taught "give a hoot, don't pollute", and to us, as kids, that meant "don't create trash" as much as "clean up your trash".
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    Can microplastics escape landfills, or is that an issue for trash that didn't get into a landfill? > We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from. Why does it matter if it's the same spot? More importantly there's only so much oil and putting it all in landfills would not cover the planet.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Microplastics mostly come from fabric like nylon. Small fibers that can be easily broken off. Your crushed 4L milk jug in a landfill isn't much of a source of microplastics, nor is it much of a threat to the water table (I mean, we use that same plastic for food).
      - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
        This doesn’t sound right. Do you have a source for this?
      - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        By crushing it you weakened the structure, creating fissures where exactly that happens, and then over time eats into the rest.
      - lorenzorhoades 6y ago
        i've heard this before. It was in regards to people washing their clothes.
  - nitwit005 6y ago
    > As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. In many places we knew oil was there because it was leaking out. Some of the deposits were exposed to the surface. We have ancient records of people making use of it to make adhesive or caulk boats. Those have just tended to have gotten used up by now.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      Those were probably a tiny fraction of all oil... not to mention are likely to have very different chemical properties compared to plastic ?
Aunche 6y ago
Shells and coral also don't decompose and turn into limestone after enough time. Plastic is more toxic, but I can't imagine it being much worse than oil shale when it's compressed. Maybe humanity's legacy in a million years will be a bunch of plastic rocks.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Maybe a future race will dig it up to make their water bottles from. In all seriousness landfills get a really bad reputation but aren’t the worst thing in the world.
  - temikus 6y ago
    Former environmental engineer here. Landfills are not that bad indeed but only if they’re properly constructed - i.e. concrete bed poured, geological survey done beforehand and the seepage of stuff into the ground and settling is continuously monitored. The problem is that constructing _proper_ landfills is hideously expensive so regulations are skirted all over the world. Then you have problem of the stuff decomposing and seeping into groundwater, etc. It’s not all milk jugs and bottles. It’s paint, batteries, motor oil, old non-RoHs electronics that seep mercury and lead everywhere, etc. That’s the main problem with landfills.
- 34679 6y ago
  George Carlin: "And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?” Plastic… asshole.” Full text: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/251836-we-re-so-self-important-everybody-s-going-to-save-something-now-save https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/251836-we-re-so-self-import... Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

rnet85 6y ago

Except plastic breaks down into micro plastics and seeps into the ecosystem, unless you’re willing to hermetically seal hundreds of thousands of acres of land

randcraw 6y ago

You're not convinced... because you understand the component costs and you believe they add up favorably? Or you don't know and don't care? The answers to your suggestion start with knowing the volume of plastic, time to degrade, degradation byproduct toxicity, and alternative 'recycling' methods and their costs. There's also clear evidence that the 'current' model and practice for plastic disposal (that you endorse) is NOT safe and effective. Until you can suggest how to fix its demerits, it's unhelpful to blithely suggest we just keep doing it.

GhostVII 6y ago
I'm not convinced because as the article says, it's not realistic to recycle many kinds of plastic, and because I don't see the harm in safely burying garbage. In my city there is an old landfill which has now been covered in dirt and turned into a park, with a sledding hill and a bike park. If you didn't know better, you wouldn't even be able to tell it was a landfill before, and if properly managed none of that garbage will ever leak out - the city uses well water and has had no problems with contamination from the landfill. If it is less energy intensive to create new plastics rather than recycling (which seems to be the case), why not just safely bury the old plastics and make new ones, it should be better for the environment anyways. Of course you should try to reduce and reuse before throwing out plastics, but if you have to get rid of them landfills seem reasonable.
- lorenzorhoades 6y ago
  Are you talking about Tacoma/ Ruston Area? I agree with you. Recycling is stupid; weirdly enough it's a major contributor(? Totally not the right word) to homelessness. Secondly, it's allowed to be 'disposed of' internationally. Who knows what the Chinese and Indians are doing with it. Instead of CRV at the consumer level, we should have susidies or direct payments to suppliers for reusing plastic. All the plastic that isn't 'intrinsically valuable', ends up safely in a landfill.
imtringued 6y ago
Degradation only matters in nature. That plastic was taken from the earth and nobody gives a damn about the toxicity of oil sitting in the ground. Nobody worries about how long it takes for it to degrade. If you bring the plastic back to where it came from you've done enough.