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That sounds like a good guideline to be honest. Perhaps not the best-worded one, but gets the point across and avoids becoming another Google Play Store.

by crehn 6y ago

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I think it would be in excellent guideline if iOS allowed side-loading (without ridiculous restrictions). But it doesn't. Everyone was an amateur once. How should they distribute their apps?
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I do not want these apps and average Joe doesn't want them either. Why is it so difficult for people to imagine how insanely powerful and datapacked your phone is? Allowing sideloading to average people means they will get hacked and ransomwared left and right. Your entire life is on the iPhone. While I agree with you about sideloading apps for enthusiasts and hackers, but the world is far different than you and me. I really don't understand why these arguments are presented on HN time and again. Jailbreaking your iPhone is a terrible idea. Horrifying even. I am glad Apple is gate keeping. Privacy > Hackability. You can't have both. The world is full of vultures that will shred your privacy in no time. Just look at what the ad-tech is doing within these sandboxes (browsers). Microsoft got into ad-tech game because they realized "Holyshit, we are actually in a unique position...develop operating system and sell data for millions of users?". Apple is probably the only company looking after users and yet we've got completely deluded developers on HN complaining about sideloading apps. Sigh. For amateurs, let them develop stuff on browsers. I don't want these amateurs widely distributing apps to billions of users with system level access with a quick approval popups for billions of idiots that don't care about their privacy and would give access to anything that asks for it.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    Android allows sideloading and I’ve literally never heard of anyone even doing that, much less getting hacked by it. I think you massively overestimate how many people would use that functionality.
    - crehn 6y ago
      Even without sideloading, the Google Play Store is so full of trash apps that request dubious permissions and are littered with dark patterns. Not that it doesn't happen on the App Store, but it's significantly worse on Android. I saw the state of my little brother's phone (tween) and it was quite shocking.
    - notriddle 6y ago
      > Android allows sideloading and I’ve literally never heard of anyone even doing that, much less getting hacked by it. I have. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/07/24/warning-android-malware-masquerading-as-pornhub-google-and-evernote-is-actually-a-russian-spy-operation/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/07/24/warni...
    - tonyarkles 6y ago
      > I think you massively overestimate how many people would use that functionality. I admit that I know very little about Fortnite and am not a regular Android user, but my understanding is that, right now, anyone who wants to play Fortnite on Android is sideloading it. That's a lot of people who are opening up a pretty brutal attack vector to be able to play a game that got kicked out of the official Play Store. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-an...
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        It didn't get kicked out of the store for violating people's privacy or some such, it got kicked out because they didn't want to pay Google money in exchange for absolutely nothing. Sideloading Fortnite is not opening up an attack vector unless Fortnite itself is malicious, which it's not, because it's a huge game from a huge company. As long as the official download source is known to everybody, I think it's fine. I know there are fake (malicious) copies of Fortnite out there, but those promise free V-Bucks or some such. You could just as easily run that scam without sideloading and target the user's credit card number of similar.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > Jailbreaking your iPhone is a terrible idea. Horrifying even. And the fact that I can Jailbreak my phone has not caused your iPhone to to become safer or less private. All I want is for Apple to offer an escape hatch, completely optional. It would not affect your experience in the slightest.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      I agree with you if that escape hatch requires explicit permission, warnings and a bunch of precautions. Hot links, such as reddit.com launching App Store to download their app should not be allowed because some uninformed user might just download bogus apps from 3rd party stores. Again, I support the idea of an escape hatch, but I feel like that applies to an imposssibly small slice of the total iPhone userbase. People like you and me. I feel like I should write it out: 0.00000001% people. Do you think executives at Apple look at this feature request and spin the entire ship around so that you and I can hack a phone?
      - Cyphase 6y ago
        Sorry if this is nitpicky, but since you made a point of saying you were going to write it out.. The world population is ~7.8 billion. 0.00000001% of that is 0.78. If you drop the percentage, it's still only 78 people. And that's assuming every person in the world is an iPhone user. I think the slice is obviously bigger than that.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > Do you think executives at Apple look at this feature request and spin the entire ship around so that you and I can hack a phone? Yes, because of what happened with HKMap.live. This is incredibly important for free expression. It’s only used by a tiny number of people until one day when it suddenly becomes essential.
    - briandear 6y ago
      Sure it would. Some major developer only offers their app as a side load and suddenly your Aunt Edna is giving system level permissions to some developer without any realization that they just gave away keys to their house. Perhaps Apple could sell a developer edition of the phone that allows side loading.. come to think of it, they do. If you are an Apple developer you can side load apps. Any developer that wants to can post their code on github and let other developers install it on their phone. Really, if you don’t like the rules, you have an alternative.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  If you're an amateur, you have to put in extra time to get your app into shape.

That sounds like a good guideline to be honest. Perhaps not the best-worded one, but gets the point across and avoids becoming another Google Play Store.

by crehn 6y ago

That sounds like a good guideline to be honest. Perhaps not the best-worded one, but gets the point across and avoids becoming another Google Play Store.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

I think it would be in excellent guideline if iOS allowed side-loading (without ridiculous restrictions). But it doesn't. Everyone was an amateur once. How should they distribute their apps?

systemvoltage 6y ago
I do not want these apps and average Joe doesn't want them either. Why is it so difficult for people to imagine how insanely powerful and datapacked your phone is? Allowing sideloading to average people means they will get hacked and ransomwared left and right. Your entire life is on the iPhone. While I agree with you about sideloading apps for enthusiasts and hackers, but the world is far different than you and me. I really don't understand why these arguments are presented on HN time and again. Jailbreaking your iPhone is a terrible idea. Horrifying even. I am glad Apple is gate keeping. Privacy > Hackability. You can't have both. The world is full of vultures that will shred your privacy in no time. Just look at what the ad-tech is doing within these sandboxes (browsers). Microsoft got into ad-tech game because they realized "Holyshit, we are actually in a unique position...develop operating system and sell data for millions of users?". Apple is probably the only company looking after users and yet we've got completely deluded developers on HN complaining about sideloading apps. Sigh. For amateurs, let them develop stuff on browsers. I don't want these amateurs widely distributing apps to billions of users with system level access with a quick approval popups for billions of idiots that don't care about their privacy and would give access to anything that asks for it.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Android allows sideloading and I’ve literally never heard of anyone even doing that, much less getting hacked by it. I think you massively overestimate how many people would use that functionality.
  - crehn 6y ago
    Even without sideloading, the Google Play Store is so full of trash apps that request dubious permissions and are littered with dark patterns. Not that it doesn't happen on the App Store, but it's significantly worse on Android. I saw the state of my little brother's phone (tween) and it was quite shocking.
  - notriddle 6y ago
    > Android allows sideloading and I’ve literally never heard of anyone even doing that, much less getting hacked by it. I have. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/07/24/warning-android-malware-masquerading-as-pornhub-google-and-evernote-is-actually-a-russian-spy-operation/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/07/24/warni...
  - tonyarkles 6y ago
    > I think you massively overestimate how many people would use that functionality. I admit that I know very little about Fortnite and am not a regular Android user, but my understanding is that, right now, anyone who wants to play Fortnite on Android is sideloading it. That's a lot of people who are opening up a pretty brutal attack vector to be able to play a game that got kicked out of the official Play Store. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-an...
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      It didn't get kicked out of the store for violating people's privacy or some such, it got kicked out because they didn't want to pay Google money in exchange for absolutely nothing. Sideloading Fortnite is not opening up an attack vector unless Fortnite itself is malicious, which it's not, because it's a huge game from a huge company. As long as the official download source is known to everybody, I think it's fine. I know there are fake (malicious) copies of Fortnite out there, but those promise free V-Bucks or some such. You could just as easily run that scam without sideloading and target the user's credit card number of similar.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > Jailbreaking your iPhone is a terrible idea. Horrifying even. And the fact that I can Jailbreak my phone has not caused your iPhone to to become safer or less private. All I want is for Apple to offer an escape hatch, completely optional. It would not affect your experience in the slightest.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I agree with you if that escape hatch requires explicit permission, warnings and a bunch of precautions. Hot links, such as reddit.com launching App Store to download their app should not be allowed because some uninformed user might just download bogus apps from 3rd party stores. Again, I support the idea of an escape hatch, but I feel like that applies to an imposssibly small slice of the total iPhone userbase. People like you and me. I feel like I should write it out: 0.00000001% people. Do you think executives at Apple look at this feature request and spin the entire ship around so that you and I can hack a phone?
    - Cyphase 6y ago
      Sorry if this is nitpicky, but since you made a point of saying you were going to write it out.. The world population is ~7.8 billion. 0.00000001% of that is 0.78. If you drop the percentage, it's still only 78 people. And that's assuming every person in the world is an iPhone user. I think the slice is obviously bigger than that.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > Do you think executives at Apple look at this feature request and spin the entire ship around so that you and I can hack a phone? Yes, because of what happened with HKMap.live. This is incredibly important for free expression. It’s only used by a tiny number of people until one day when it suddenly becomes essential.
  - briandear 6y ago
    Sure it would. Some major developer only offers their app as a side load and suddenly your Aunt Edna is giving system level permissions to some developer without any realization that they just gave away keys to their house. Perhaps Apple could sell a developer edition of the phone that allows side loading.. come to think of it, they do. If you are an Apple developer you can side load apps. Any developer that wants to can post their code on github and let other developers install it on their phone. Really, if you don’t like the rules, you have an alternative.
Dylan16807 6y ago
If you're an amateur, you have to put in extra time to get your app into shape.