8 ms·

I can't believe they were dumb enough to put that SCOTUS line in this. It just plays into their current "meh, here's some rules but we'll do whatever we want a

I can't believe they were dumb enough to put that SCOTUS line in this. It just plays into their current "meh, here's some rules but we'll do whatever we want anyway" image.

ForHackernews 6y ago
It's their treehouse; they can do what they want. None of these platforms are your friend. Half the Apple devs I know have some kind of stockholm syndrome, though.
- xnyan 6y ago
  Apple owns the platform. I'm still going to try and change how they do business because that would be better for me. Everyone is allowed to do that and there's nothing wrong with it. If you want to give up your power as a person to try to affect change, that's cool but I'm not giving up any non-immoral tool I have.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Or just maybe they like making money on the mobile platform where people will actually spend money?
  - dmonitor 6y ago
    The crazy part is the people who fly into fits of rage when you suggest Apple could do something differently. Changing the web browser on iOS was one that would get tons of hate and responses like “you don’t need that! it would confuse people!” Then Apple lets people do it and now they’re okay with it
    - SahAssar 6y ago
      You still can't change the browser on iOS. All the other "browsers" are heavily restricted skins over a webview, not a proper other browser.
      - design-material 6y ago
        And that's OK; if it wasn't for Apple then Google would essentially own the current and future direction of the web by now
        likeclockwork 6y ago
        with their sandbagged browser that they only bother to update once a year? Firefox is the competition for Chrome, Safari is just a sandbag to hold open the gap between web apps and native apps.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Apple updates the browser between major OS updates. Apple added YubiKey support (https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/12/12/apple-ios-13-3-is-here-bringing-support-for-keyfobby-authentication/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/12/12/apple-ios-13-3-i...) for 2FA in Safari in 13.3 and they added better mouse support to Safari as well as other built in apps between major releases. Firefox is losing market share and almost completely dependent on Google for its survival. If Firefox tries not to support something that the rest of the industry is supporting (like the web based DRM) the rest of the industry just yawns.
        SahAssar 6y ago
        Competition should not be created by limiting the market on one specific platform.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Then stop whining about Apple's stupid rules. Apple also likes making money on their platform, and they're much better at it than you are.
_jal 6y ago
I'm really surprised. Did Apple shake up their PR or legal flacks? The language they've used recently (I'm thinking of the Epic stuff, too) feels different than their famously cool, considered tone; looser, more assertive, and much easier to argue with.
- pier25 6y ago
  I agree. Sentences like "we think that you will also know it when you cross it" are extremely arrogant.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  I disagree. They have always been this arrogant. You are just noticing it right now. Do you remember when they essentially said don't run to the press if we don't allow your app, it won't help you, which I personally interpreted as or else? Or how almost every time someone criticizes Apple they sandwich a one-sentence criticism between 50 sentences of praise because they know the cost of not doing that could be their entire business? Since the launch of iPhone, Apple has been the 800lb gorilla in the room and has acted like it. EDIT: From App Store Review Guidelines on September 2014: > "If your App is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps." https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer...
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    Which is such a lie, because going to the press is exactly what gets a lot of apps re-evaluated and accepted.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dclowd9901 6y ago
      Eh, it _can_ be a lie. This is some form of the quandary “if you owe the bank a million dollars, you’re in trouble; if you owe the bank a billion dollars, the bank is in trouble.” 99% of app devs will not benefit from “running to the press.” Those that will will know it for certain.
scarface74 6y ago
Everything is a judgment call. You can no more spell out everything that is considered explicit than your HR department can spell out everything that might constitute harassment.
madeofpalk 6y ago
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that line's been in there since the review guidelines were public, years ago.
- input_sh 6y ago
  I found an article from 6 years ago that quotes that line, so at least since then: https://www.theregister.com/Print/2014/09/04/apple_new_app_store_guidelines_for_developers/ https://www.theregister.com/Print/2014/09/04/apple_new_app_s...
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
If I remember correctly, the SCOTUS reference dates back to when Steve Jobs was CEO. I am, um, not at all surprised he put that in the guidelines. The guidelines also used to say: > If your App looks like it was cobbled together in a few days, or you're trying to get your first practice App into the store to impress your friends, please brace yourself for rejection. We have lots of serious developers who don't want their quality Apps to be surrounded by amateur hour. You can tell this was personally written by Steve. --- Taken from https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.... This is the earliest available in the Internet Archive as far as I can tell; circa-2012 they were kept behind an account login.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  I've heard anecdotally that Steve Jobs helped write those guidelines, and the "amateur hour" line in particular sure sounds like him. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; Jobs could certainly be a jerk, but there are times I wish more CEOs were willing to be that blunt in official communication.
  - ksec 6y ago
    And to be honest it make sense in the early days. Jobs wanted the absolute best Apps in the Apps Store. Situation now is different though. Jobs would likely have some human touch in the current situation. Where as Tim Cook feels less so.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Given how much amateur hour there is on the app store, I think they might as well remove that rule...
- crehn 6y ago
  That sounds like a good guideline to be honest. Perhaps not the best-worded one, but gets the point across and avoids becoming another Google Play Store.
codeulike 6y ago
Its been there for years https://web.archive.org/web/20160706210122/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160706210122/https://developer...

I can't believe they were dumb enough to put that SCOTUS line in this. It just plays into their current "meh, here's some rules but we'll do whatever we want anyway" image.

ForHackernews 6y ago

It's their treehouse; they can do what they want. None of these platforms are your friend. Half the Apple devs I know have some kind of stockholm syndrome, though.

xnyan 6y ago
Apple owns the platform. I'm still going to try and change how they do business because that would be better for me. Everyone is allowed to do that and there's nothing wrong with it. If you want to give up your power as a person to try to affect change, that's cool but I'm not giving up any non-immoral tool I have.
scarface74 6y ago
Or just maybe they like making money on the mobile platform where people will actually spend money?
- dmonitor 6y ago
  The crazy part is the people who fly into fits of rage when you suggest Apple could do something differently. Changing the web browser on iOS was one that would get tons of hate and responses like “you don’t need that! it would confuse people!” Then Apple lets people do it and now they’re okay with it
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    You still can't change the browser on iOS. All the other "browsers" are heavily restricted skins over a webview, not a proper other browser.
    - design-material 6y ago
      And that's OK; if it wasn't for Apple then Google would essentially own the current and future direction of the web by now
      - likeclockwork 6y ago
        with their sandbagged browser that they only bother to update once a year? Firefox is the competition for Chrome, Safari is just a sandbag to hold open the gap between web apps and native apps.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Apple updates the browser between major OS updates. Apple added YubiKey support (https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/12/12/apple-ios-13-3-is-here-bringing-support-for-keyfobby-authentication/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/12/12/apple-ios-13-3-i...) for 2FA in Safari in 13.3 and they added better mouse support to Safari as well as other built in apps between major releases. Firefox is losing market share and almost completely dependent on Google for its survival. If Firefox tries not to support something that the rest of the industry is supporting (like the web based DRM) the rest of the industry just yawns.
      - SahAssar 6y ago
        Competition should not be created by limiting the market on one specific platform.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Then stop whining about Apple's stupid rules. Apple also likes making money on their platform, and they're much better at it than you are.

_jal 6y ago

I'm really surprised. Did Apple shake up their PR or legal flacks? The language they've used recently (I'm thinking of the Epic stuff, too) feels different than their famously cool, considered tone; looser, more assertive, and much easier to argue with.

pier25 6y ago
I agree. Sentences like "we think that you will also know it when you cross it" are extremely arrogant.
smnrchrds 6y ago
I disagree. They have always been this arrogant. You are just noticing it right now. Do you remember when they essentially said don't run to the press if we don't allow your app, it won't help you, which I personally interpreted as or else? Or how almost every time someone criticizes Apple they sandwich a one-sentence criticism between 50 sentences of praise because they know the cost of not doing that could be their entire business? Since the launch of iPhone, Apple has been the 800lb gorilla in the room and has acted like it. EDIT: From App Store Review Guidelines on September 2014: > "If your App is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps." https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer...
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Which is such a lie, because going to the press is exactly what gets a lot of apps re-evaluated and accepted.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dclowd9901 6y ago
    Eh, it _can_ be a lie. This is some form of the quandary “if you owe the bank a million dollars, you’re in trouble; if you owe the bank a billion dollars, the bank is in trouble.” 99% of app devs will not benefit from “running to the press.” Those that will will know it for certain.

scarface74 6y ago

Everything is a judgment call. You can no more spell out everything that is considered explicit than your HR department can spell out everything that might constitute harassment.

madeofpalk 6y ago

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that line's been in there since the review guidelines were public, years ago.

input_sh 6y ago
I found an article from 6 years ago that quotes that line, so at least since then: https://www.theregister.com/Print/2014/09/04/apple_new_app_store_guidelines_for_developers/ https://www.theregister.com/Print/2014/09/04/apple_new_app_s...

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

If I remember correctly, the SCOTUS reference dates back to when Steve Jobs was CEO. I am, um, not at all surprised he put that in the guidelines. The guidelines also used to say: > If your App looks like it was cobbled together in a few days, or you're trying to get your first practice App into the store to impress your friends, please brace yourself for rejection. We have lots of serious developers who don't want their quality Apps to be surrounded by amateur hour. You can tell this was personally written by Steve. --- Taken from https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140903022336/https://developer.... This is the earliest available in the Internet Archive as far as I can tell; circa-2012 they were kept behind an account login.

chipotle_coyote 6y ago
I've heard anecdotally that Steve Jobs helped write those guidelines, and the "amateur hour" line in particular sure sounds like him. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; Jobs could certainly be a jerk, but there are times I wish more CEOs were willing to be that blunt in official communication.
- ksec 6y ago
  And to be honest it make sense in the early days. Jobs wanted the absolute best Apps in the Apps Store. Situation now is different though. Jobs would likely have some human touch in the current situation. Where as Tim Cook feels less so.
Aeolun 6y ago
Given how much amateur hour there is on the app store, I think they might as well remove that rule...
crehn 6y ago
That sounds like a good guideline to be honest. Perhaps not the best-worded one, but gets the point across and avoids becoming another Google Play Store.

codeulike 6y ago

Its been there for years https://web.archive.org/web/20160706210122/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160706210122/https://developer...