6 ms·

Those are really good points. A good approach to incentivize everyone to do the right thing is to make it the least expensive option. That either requires some

by dmos62 6y ago

Those are really good points. A good approach to incentivize everyone to do the right thing is to make it the least expensive option. That either requires some lucky tech breakthrough (super unlikely) or a strong government. A recyclability tax, where the producer pays a tax that corresponds to how much it will cost to recycle their product. Maybe collect data of how much of their product is actually recycled. That would force producers to consider reuse, recycling, etc. Banning disposable packaging. Want potato chips? Bring a special reusable (and relatively expensive) bag to the dispenser, have it unload some chips and do whatever trick is necessary to keep the chips dehydrated and crisp. You can also only ban disposable packaging that could have negative environmental effect. Maybe something made out of some fungi or hay or something could just be treated like compost waste.

Ensorceled 6y ago
The beer bottle consortium in Ontario is a good model, the beer bottles have been shared among all the brewers for decades and returned for deposit to common locations. This monopoly has a few issues of course but it's a good template.
dvdkhlng 6y ago
We have something like what you propose in germany [1]. Basically it causes the producers of packaging to end up paying for the disposal of the corresponding trash. This creates an incentitive for producers to make the packaging less wasteful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)#German_dual_system_of_waste_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)#German_dual...
- wink 6y ago
  Kinda bullshit though, it's been around for ages and in many regions there's no proper waste management. Where I live you have to collect it separately and bring it somewhere on your own. The smaller towns next to my town oftn have this as a third/fourth bin next to general waste/paper/biological.
- xioxox 6y ago
  Despite this, Germans seem to use a lot of bottles. Most German people seem to prefer to drink bottled water rather than tap water, even though tap water is of very high quality. They also don't have the concentrated drinks available in other countries (cordial/squash) and insist on shipping around diluted drinks in heavy glass bottles.
  - dvdkhlng 6y ago
    Yes, due to the insane amount of single-use plastic bottles being being wasted without recycling, we nowadays have to pay deposit for most bottles, which we then get back by returning the spent bottles to special collecting stations that use some computer-vision to check each bottle one by one for eligibility of deposit return. So whatever you drink at home, you usually quickly start amassing lots of empty bottles at home that rot and wait for being returned to the supermarket.
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  Do German manufacturers still pull tricks like selling a slightly smaller amount of pasta/sauce/cheese/crisps/juice in the same sized container at the same price? Happens all the time in Canada/USA. Funny how they switch to the common metric or imperial sizes where it fits their interests. E.g. a lot of pastas went from 1kg to 908g, while pop bottles went from 560mL to 500mL.
  - sidpatil 6y ago
    This is known as shrinkflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation
andrepd 6y ago
Your "chips model" works perfectly well for thousands of products. Want detergent? Bring a bottle to a machine that fills it up rather than taking home a brand new plastic bottle every time. Ditto for fruits and vegetables. Biscuits. Candy. Anything that doesn't need a plastic bag for health and safety reasons.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  How would fill-your-own-bottle work with online shopping and home delivery, which more and more people are doing even for groceries?
  - mason55 6y ago
    You could do it like the milk men where you put out your old container and they bring you a new one. Instead of refilling it yourself the used one goes back to be refilled at the factory or whatever.
  - fuzzer37 6y ago
    Put a deposit on the bottle that it comes in, similar to how states like Michigan have a bottle deposit. Make it large enough that the consumer would be incentivized to return the bottle, even if they themselves don't actually re-use it. This way they could simply return the empty bottle, even if they don't plan on refilling it.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      What you are describing is simply a bottle recycling program as it already exists in a number of European countries. But the OP was talking about the need for alternatives to bottle-recycling programs.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
    1. A factory ships a product to the seller in a durable container. Puts $1 into a smart contract to resolve on that container's return. 2. I buy $5 worth of product in durable container from seller and pay $7. 3. Seller gets $5, remaining $2 goes into smart contract from step 1. So now there's three incentives to get the container back to the factory (each is $1 in this example, but would be a parameter in reality). 4. If the container shows up at the factory at all, whoever delivers it gets $1 for facilitating the delivery and the factory gets their $1 back because they didn't contribute to litter. 5. If it arrives back at the factory clean and in good condition, I get $1 back for not contributing to litter and for doing my part to ensure that the container is reusable rather than merely recyclable. If you find a durable container in the wild that doesn't have a bounty on it, it's proof that the factory is cheating and the government gives you a $1 for it, and takes that $1 out of the factory's taxes. If you find a bottle with the factory's bounty but not the consumer's bounty, it's evidence that the seller or buyer is cheating. The government gives you $2 for it and collaborates with the factory to take $2 out of the seller's taxes. If you find a container with both bounties on it, it's evidence that I was too lazy to take it back to the factory, so you give it to the factory and get the $1 reward. If I keep the container and repurpose it, the factory doesn't get their $1 back, but whatever I'm using it for hopefully counts as good advertising for them. Also, I can always just return it much later when it's done with the reuse purpose. If you find a damaged container in the wild, recycle it with society's thanks and know that whoever let that happen paid $1 for their crime.
MertsA 6y ago
One thing to consider is that plenty of packaged foods seal their bags with pure nitrogen to keep the humidity under control and eliminate oxygen ageing the food in storage. It's the same reason why a bag of chips can have some quite lengthy expiration date and still taste fresh when you open them but leave them sitting in your cupboards for a while and now they're noticeably less fresh. Having some sort of chip dispenser (or cereal, goldfish, whatever) would make that quite a bit harder to deal with.
- dmos62 6y ago
  I was thinking of this when I said "some trick to keep chips crisp". I think you could have the dispenser nitrogen-seal it for you, or maybe there are more appropriate alternatives.

by dmos62 6y ago

Ensorceled 6y ago

The beer bottle consortium in Ontario is a good model, the beer bottles have been shared among all the brewers for decades and returned for deposit to common locations. This monopoly has a few issues of course but it's a good template.

dvdkhlng 6y ago

We have something like what you propose in germany [1]. Basically it causes the producers of packaging to end up paying for the disposal of the corresponding trash. This creates an incentitive for producers to make the packaging less wasteful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)#German_dual_system_of_waste_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)#German_dual...

wink 6y ago
Kinda bullshit though, it's been around for ages and in many regions there's no proper waste management. Where I live you have to collect it separately and bring it somewhere on your own. The smaller towns next to my town oftn have this as a third/fourth bin next to general waste/paper/biological.
xioxox 6y ago
Despite this, Germans seem to use a lot of bottles. Most German people seem to prefer to drink bottled water rather than tap water, even though tap water is of very high quality. They also don't have the concentrated drinks available in other countries (cordial/squash) and insist on shipping around diluted drinks in heavy glass bottles.
- dvdkhlng 6y ago
  Yes, due to the insane amount of single-use plastic bottles being being wasted without recycling, we nowadays have to pay deposit for most bottles, which we then get back by returning the spent bottles to special collecting stations that use some computer-vision to check each bottle one by one for eligibility of deposit return. So whatever you drink at home, you usually quickly start amassing lots of empty bottles at home that rot and wait for being returned to the supermarket.
Scoundreller 6y ago
Do German manufacturers still pull tricks like selling a slightly smaller amount of pasta/sauce/cheese/crisps/juice in the same sized container at the same price? Happens all the time in Canada/USA. Funny how they switch to the common metric or imperial sizes where it fits their interests. E.g. a lot of pastas went from 1kg to 908g, while pop bottles went from 560mL to 500mL.
- sidpatil 6y ago
  This is known as shrinkflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation

andrepd 6y ago

Your "chips model" works perfectly well for thousands of products. Want detergent? Bring a bottle to a machine that fills it up rather than taking home a brand new plastic bottle every time. Ditto for fruits and vegetables. Biscuits. Candy. Anything that doesn't need a plastic bag for health and safety reasons.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
How would fill-your-own-bottle work with online shopping and home delivery, which more and more people are doing even for groceries?
- mason55 6y ago
  You could do it like the milk men where you put out your old container and they bring you a new one. Instead of refilling it yourself the used one goes back to be refilled at the factory or whatever.
- fuzzer37 6y ago
  Put a deposit on the bottle that it comes in, similar to how states like Michigan have a bottle deposit. Make it large enough that the consumer would be incentivized to return the bottle, even if they themselves don't actually re-use it. This way they could simply return the empty bottle, even if they don't plan on refilling it.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    What you are describing is simply a bottle recycling program as it already exists in a number of European countries. But the OP was talking about the need for alternatives to bottle-recycling programs.
- __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
  1. A factory ships a product to the seller in a durable container. Puts $1 into a smart contract to resolve on that container's return. 2. I buy $5 worth of product in durable container from seller and pay $7. 3. Seller gets $5, remaining $2 goes into smart contract from step 1. So now there's three incentives to get the container back to the factory (each is $1 in this example, but would be a parameter in reality). 4. If the container shows up at the factory at all, whoever delivers it gets $1 for facilitating the delivery and the factory gets their $1 back because they didn't contribute to litter. 5. If it arrives back at the factory clean and in good condition, I get $1 back for not contributing to litter and for doing my part to ensure that the container is reusable rather than merely recyclable. If you find a durable container in the wild that doesn't have a bounty on it, it's proof that the factory is cheating and the government gives you a $1 for it, and takes that $1 out of the factory's taxes. If you find a bottle with the factory's bounty but not the consumer's bounty, it's evidence that the seller or buyer is cheating. The government gives you $2 for it and collaborates with the factory to take $2 out of the seller's taxes. If you find a container with both bounties on it, it's evidence that I was too lazy to take it back to the factory, so you give it to the factory and get the $1 reward. If I keep the container and repurpose it, the factory doesn't get their $1 back, but whatever I'm using it for hopefully counts as good advertising for them. Also, I can always just return it much later when it's done with the reuse purpose. If you find a damaged container in the wild, recycle it with society's thanks and know that whoever let that happen paid $1 for their crime.

MertsA 6y ago

One thing to consider is that plenty of packaged foods seal their bags with pure nitrogen to keep the humidity under control and eliminate oxygen ageing the food in storage. It's the same reason why a bag of chips can have some quite lengthy expiration date and still taste fresh when you open them but leave them sitting in your cupboards for a while and now they're noticeably less fresh. Having some sort of chip dispenser (or cereal, goldfish, whatever) would make that quite a bit harder to deal with.

dmos62 6y ago
I was thinking of this when I said "some trick to keep chips crisp". I think you could have the dispenser nitrogen-seal it for you, or maybe there are more appropriate alternatives.