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Interesting ... has anybody tried a browser based (which is what I presume you mean by HTML) front end for emacs? EDIT - just to be clear, I'm talking about em

by rusk 6y ago

Interesting ... has anybody tried a browser based (which is what I presume you mean by HTML) front end for emacs? EDIT - just to be clear, I'm talking about emacsclient, talking to a emacs server. Not an actual full blown emacs implementation that's just stupid.

dheera 6y ago
With the new Chrome filesystem API it should be possible to make a full browser implementation. Let's just hope they don't have annoying GDPR and other popups when you're trying to edit a file.
- warpech 6y ago
  There must be someone working on Emacs in Electron as we speak. I found some gist that's 2 years old: https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/f874ac1c872c004d6ce9e3cb20cc59e0 https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/f874ac1c872c004d6ce9e3cb20...
- rusk 6y ago
  You shouldn't even have to need filesystem API if you're just using it as an emacs client connecting to an emacs server. Your remark about GDPR is kind of strange ... not sure what that would have to do with anything ... GDPR applies to people and organisations, not their tools.
  - hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
    Some people really hate GDPR. It has crushed the AdTech industry in Europe - I'm not sad about that but I do hope those people found other employment fast.
    - rusk 6y ago
      There was a thriving industry harvesting and processing personal details about people. I think if the true extent of it were known most people would warmly embrace GDPR. But some people have lost a lot of money and they are pissed, but again I kind of feel there is a lot unscrupulousness involved so it's hard to feel sympathy. To a lesser extent, there are people that are concerned about "all the extra work" this entails, and the cost it adds to their bottom line. But this stuff is important nowadays. You really should be taking care of it. There is some scaremongering about small firms being blown out of the water for noncompliance, but really, unless you're doing something you shouldn't be doing you should be fine. The terms of GDPR though still not completely clearly specified are flexible and reasonable. The main thing is now, that you can't say you weren't aware of it.
  - NateEag 6y ago
    The requirement to advertise "we use cookies" and spam you with popups when you visit a site is frustrating for highly technical users. OP is saying that Emacs-as-website would be frustrating if it had those popups.
    - rusk 6y ago
      You don’t have to do that unless you’re hosting a public site ... and even so if it’s a private session and you’d logged in this wouldn’t be required. Logging in is seen as a tacit acknowledgment that you consent to being tracked, cause how would I have. A personal session otherwise. The cookies warning is all about notifying the casual reader who might otherwise believe they were passively browsing static content.
      - krageon 6y ago
        > Logging in is seen as a tacit acknowledgment that you consent to being tracked Logging in means you get a single cookie (a login/session cookie), that cookie is necessary and thus a functional cookie that you can't say no to. All other cookies (and basically every form of tracking) still isn't allowed without consent.
- hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
  Let's hope the filesystem API does require user permission and that anyone building such a service follows the law. You know that GDPR doesn't require pop ups unless the service is doing something that isn't otherwise lawful?
skissane 6y ago
I meant old-school pure HTML forms, not a HTML5 app with JavaScript+Canvas (or even wasm+Canvas). With the later, you could in principle compile GNU Emacs to JavaScript or wasm, using e.g. emscripten. (I don't know if anyone has succeeded in that yet, but I think it would be in principle achievable.) Old-school pure HTML forms actually has a lot conceptually in common with block mode terminals such as IBM 3270. The server sends the client a fill-in-form, the user fills it in, the client sends it back to the server in one block. Most of the logic exists on the server (although some basic very basic validations may execute on the client). So, I was actually talking about serving up a classic pure HTML form app over HTTP as a UI style.
- rusk 6y ago
  No, I am specifically not talking about this. I'm actually not sure at this point what you mean - I have a vision of somebody communicating with an emacs backend via forms? I'm just talking about a thin client, such as you typically use when you have emacs running as a server. You only have to manage text and windowing, and capturing user commands and communicating with the back end. These are the kind of things browsers are good at.
  - skissane 6y ago
    Well, think of a 3270 editor, such as ISPF EDIT on MVS or XEDIT on VM/CMS. Now imagine using that editor through a 3270-to-HTML gateway. That's what I was really talking about. But, you could actually implement a similar style of interaction in pure HTML, without the 3270 layer. Indeed, a lot of classic server-side web apps, even if they weren't text editors, worked with that UI style. Of course, Emacs doesn't support 3270. But that was my point – that there are UI styles which Emacs doesn't support. They might not be useful UI styles, especially in 2020. But historically they were important, and any suggestion that Emacs is some kind of magic which supports all UI styles isn't really true, although maybe it supports all contemporarily practically relevant UI styles.
hpfr 6y ago
Cloudmacs basically puts tty emacs in your browser: https://github.com/karlicoss/cloudmacs https://github.com/karlicoss/cloudmacs
konjin 6y ago
I've ran emacs in cocalc's terminal emulator in the browser, non-ironically doing real work. It works pretty well.

by rusk 6y ago

dheera 6y ago

With the new Chrome filesystem API it should be possible to make a full browser implementation. Let's just hope they don't have annoying GDPR and other popups when you're trying to edit a file.

warpech 6y ago
There must be someone working on Emacs in Electron as we speak. I found some gist that's 2 years old: https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/f874ac1c872c004d6ce9e3cb20cc59e0 https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/f874ac1c872c004d6ce9e3cb20...
rusk 6y ago
You shouldn't even have to need filesystem API if you're just using it as an emacs client connecting to an emacs server. Your remark about GDPR is kind of strange ... not sure what that would have to do with anything ... GDPR applies to people and organisations, not their tools.
- hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
  Some people really hate GDPR. It has crushed the AdTech industry in Europe - I'm not sad about that but I do hope those people found other employment fast.
  - rusk 6y ago
    There was a thriving industry harvesting and processing personal details about people. I think if the true extent of it were known most people would warmly embrace GDPR. But some people have lost a lot of money and they are pissed, but again I kind of feel there is a lot unscrupulousness involved so it's hard to feel sympathy. To a lesser extent, there are people that are concerned about "all the extra work" this entails, and the cost it adds to their bottom line. But this stuff is important nowadays. You really should be taking care of it. There is some scaremongering about small firms being blown out of the water for noncompliance, but really, unless you're doing something you shouldn't be doing you should be fine. The terms of GDPR though still not completely clearly specified are flexible and reasonable. The main thing is now, that you can't say you weren't aware of it.
- NateEag 6y ago
  The requirement to advertise "we use cookies" and spam you with popups when you visit a site is frustrating for highly technical users. OP is saying that Emacs-as-website would be frustrating if it had those popups.
  - rusk 6y ago
    You don’t have to do that unless you’re hosting a public site ... and even so if it’s a private session and you’d logged in this wouldn’t be required. Logging in is seen as a tacit acknowledgment that you consent to being tracked, cause how would I have. A personal session otherwise. The cookies warning is all about notifying the casual reader who might otherwise believe they were passively browsing static content.
    - krageon 6y ago
      > Logging in is seen as a tacit acknowledgment that you consent to being tracked Logging in means you get a single cookie (a login/session cookie), that cookie is necessary and thus a functional cookie that you can't say no to. All other cookies (and basically every form of tracking) still isn't allowed without consent.
hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
Let's hope the filesystem API does require user permission and that anyone building such a service follows the law. You know that GDPR doesn't require pop ups unless the service is doing something that isn't otherwise lawful?

skissane 6y ago

I meant old-school pure HTML forms, not a HTML5 app with JavaScript+Canvas (or even wasm+Canvas). With the later, you could in principle compile GNU Emacs to JavaScript or wasm, using e.g. emscripten. (I don't know if anyone has succeeded in that yet, but I think it would be in principle achievable.) Old-school pure HTML forms actually has a lot conceptually in common with block mode terminals such as IBM 3270. The server sends the client a fill-in-form, the user fills it in, the client sends it back to the server in one block. Most of the logic exists on the server (although some basic very basic validations may execute on the client). So, I was actually talking about serving up a classic pure HTML form app over HTTP as a UI style.

rusk 6y ago
No, I am specifically not talking about this. I'm actually not sure at this point what you mean - I have a vision of somebody communicating with an emacs backend via forms? I'm just talking about a thin client, such as you typically use when you have emacs running as a server. You only have to manage text and windowing, and capturing user commands and communicating with the back end. These are the kind of things browsers are good at.
- skissane 6y ago
  Well, think of a 3270 editor, such as ISPF EDIT on MVS or XEDIT on VM/CMS. Now imagine using that editor through a 3270-to-HTML gateway. That's what I was really talking about. But, you could actually implement a similar style of interaction in pure HTML, without the 3270 layer. Indeed, a lot of classic server-side web apps, even if they weren't text editors, worked with that UI style. Of course, Emacs doesn't support 3270. But that was my point – that there are UI styles which Emacs doesn't support. They might not be useful UI styles, especially in 2020. But historically they were important, and any suggestion that Emacs is some kind of magic which supports all UI styles isn't really true, although maybe it supports all contemporarily practically relevant UI styles.

hpfr 6y ago

Cloudmacs basically puts tty emacs in your browser: https://github.com/karlicoss/cloudmacs https://github.com/karlicoss/cloudmacs

konjin 6y ago

I've ran emacs in cocalc's terminal emulator in the browser, non-ironically doing real work. It works pretty well.