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Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to op

by jmpman 6y ago

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

Nextgrid 6y ago
I am not saying I agree with the restrictions imposed by the console manufacturers but that case is different. A console is designed for a specific task (playing games and similar software), the market is somewhat competitive and you are free to buy a PC/Mac/Linux and get 99% of the functionality (minus a few exclusive titles). In fact consoles nowadays are just PCs running a custom build of a general-purpose OS. The mobile market is different. There are only 2 dominant players (Apple and Google), they both have similar anti-competitive restrictions (side-loading on Android is a non-starter given the various security warnings, and even then the lack of officially-supported root access on Android means there are things official Google software can do that you can't do without resorting to exploits, plus Android requires you to accept Google's terms & privacy policy which does not comply with the GDPR). There are no other players; the open-source alternatives such as Pinephone are not viable alternatives as they cut you off from the vast majority of apps out there. Let's take a period-correct example, are there any Covid contact-tracing clients available for platforms besides iOS and Android?
- d1zzy 6y ago
  You don't need to root an Android device to load applications from outside the Play store. The security warning is pretty accurate and useful for most people but if you want to load apps from outside the store then you aren't most people so it shouldn't matter. There's a reason alternatives to iOS and Android haven't picked up, some of those reasons are because for those that care to side load apps they can already do it on Android (or can go further and replace their OS) so not much incentive for a third mobile OS. If there was a strong enough need for an alternative then that would exist already.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    In future versions of Android, you will need to enable developer mode on Android to install applications outside of the Play Store. Google has hindered Android so that it doesn't allow third party app stores to install apps in the background, upgrade apps or batch install apps like the Play Store can.
kgwxd 6y ago
How would opening up consoles destroy their ecosystem?
- liability 6y ago
  It obviously wouldn't. Windows PCs are open (relative to consoles) and have a more vibrant and diverse set of games available.
gamblor956 6y ago
Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Apple does not allow negotiation. It's take it-or-leave it. Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend. Additionally, while MS and Sony require all developers to use their stores or APIs for IAP, they allow developers (at least large ones) to heavily customize those storefronts, and charge significantly less than 30% for the enforced privilege of using their IAP APIs; the exact rates being a matter of negotiation.
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  That's too bad. I would rather MS and Sony charge treat all developers equally to allow fair competition on the platform. This kind of preferential treatment creates a bigger divide between existing winners and those wanting to become winners.
- criddell 6y ago
  That large companies can get use their clout to get a better deal from console stores isn't a particularly compelling defense. > Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play Don't some games allow iOS / PC cross-platform play? Epic's Fortnite did, didn't it?
  - judge2020 6y ago
    Yes, iOS has no crossplay restrictions.
- awinder 6y ago
  “ Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend” I don’t understand how this is materially different from apples investments into Xcode, discoverability & promotion in the App Store/“marketing spend”, etc. Apple does tons of stuff with the big players behind closed doors, they highlight it every keynote and that’s just the ones they talk about on the “real human being” front.
deleted 6y ago
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supernovae 6y ago
Microsoft has allowed sideloading and community developed games and apps on Xbox for a while now.
- Spivak 6y ago
  I don't think regulators will really see a difference when it comes to the actual market forces at play. If MS doesn't bless your game it's dead regardless of if it's technically possible to get it to run.
  - supernovae 6y ago
    Well, Apple crossed that bridge, Microsoft hasn't. I can't for the life of me care what Xbox does when they're not kicking publishers off the store and obviously Epic has their games on Xbox and Playstation so something is different/better in that relationship. Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games.
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      > Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games. Truth is, iOS has the same. You have been able to sideload apps on iOS, without paying for a developer account, for years.
      - mmis1000 6y ago
        I wouldn't count `you need to connect to the mac and install the apps every 7 days unless you have a development program that cost $100 a year` as `You have been able to sideload apps on iOS`. It need to at least be persistent or it didn't count.
        jsjohnst 6y ago
        > you need to connect to the mac and install the apps every 7 days Except you don’t! I really recommend looking at AltStore before judging the convenience based on how things were years ago when you last had the whim to look.
save_ferris 6y ago
> Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up How is this true? Consoles predate app stores by many decades.
- Spivak 6y ago
  Consoles were and still are app stores in their entirety. Just because the technical sophistication to lock them down tight wasn't there at the beginning and they could be "hacked" didn't mean the same rules didn't apply. If you want to release a game on Xbox, PlayStation, or GameBoy, you did so at the will of Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. They did, and still do, tightly control the content that's allowed on their consoles.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
inetknght 6y ago
> destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up I'm not convinced that the console ecosystem would be destroyed if you forced them all to open up. Quite the contrary: I'd happily invest in consoles if I could build it myself with open hardware.
- ballenf 6y ago
  But the current ecosystem depends on selling the hardware at a loss. We would still have consoles, but the ecosystem would necessarily change. If consoles were not price subsidized like now, their prices would go up and sales would be affected. Presumably there'd just be fewer people who could afford to buy the latest one. You might see lower or higher specs in consoles since the market would be a little more niche. Xbox might merge fully into Windows 10 and the line between console and gamer PC may disappear. At the very least, I think we can all agree that the console ecosystem would change. Maybe "destroy" is too strong, but maybe not.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Nintendo hardly sells hardware at a loss, hence why they focus on game experience and not on ultimate graphics experience.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  We already have an open console market. It's called the PC market. Consoles are nothing but closed PCs. Did opening up destroy the PC market? No. But opening up another console market probably would destroy it; there's no reason to separate a hypothetical new PC market from the old PC market. So if you have a PC market and a PS4 market, and then you open the PS4, you have a PC market and another PC market, and then you just have the PC market.
  - xmprt 6y ago
    The console market has been slowly dying for the last decade. If anything, opening the console market could help rejuvenate it by turning consoles into general purpose entertainment devices. And the claim that consoles are just closed down PCs is absurd. Consoles can play AAA games at a fraction of the cost of your average PC. The hardware that goes into building a console is significantly different than a PC.
danShumway 6y ago
People should be careful drawing too many comparisons to consoles, because as someone who owns rooted consoles that run homebrew mods, I can attest that it's actually awesome and improves the user experience in about a dozen ways. My 3DS supports savestates & backups for games like Animal Crossing that let me maintain multiple towns at the same time, custom emulators that run my old Gameboy cartridge backups that I made, really amazing mods like Project Restoration for Majora's Mask, plus custom themes and easier storage management for things like pictures and songs. By comparison, an unhacked Switch still can't even back up all of its save games to the cloud. If you don't want us to go after consoles as well, maybe don't tempt us? I'm sympathetic to the argument that being loss leaders makes consoles unique and special and different from a smartphone, but if the general consensus here is that they're exactly the same... If you're arguing that this case is a slippery slope, try to come up with some consequences farther down the slope that don't sound kind of nice.
- ribosometronome 6y ago
  The consequence isn't that your 3DS would have been better upon releasing, its that it wouldn't have released if the console market had been required to operate this way.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    And again, I'm sympathetic to that argument. But then don't argue that the iPhone is exactly the same. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Apple would stop producing the iPhone if sideloading was allowed. The smartphone market doesn't operate the same way as the console market.
    - ribosometronome 6y ago
      The comparison is the they are both devices that limit installation of software. They're rather similar in that regard. I'm not sure that "This product can only exist if you allow us to have a monopoly" is justification for allowing a monopoly when it comes to video games consoles.
throwaway13337 6y ago
I've seen this comment specifically from you come up a lot in all the apple vs epic conversations. This is whataboutism for sure. It moves the discussion to a less constructive, more re-hashed place. Consoles are different because they're not sold as general purpose computing devices and do not have the market penetration size that iOS does. There is a great argument for allowing all consumers to install whatever software they want on all devices they purchased - including consoles - by law. I'd like to see this - for over a decade, a lot of tech communities have pushed for this - but this isn't the conversation we're having today.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  What market penetration? iOS is only 20% of the global smartphone market, PS 4 outperforms it on world market share.
fsociety 6y ago
I’m not sure how you can compare a closed ecosystem with essential services - phone, email, text, 2FA, emergency warnings, heart monitoring, medicine tracking, banking, etc. - with a closed ecosystem that runs games. Mobile phones are how many individuals interface with the rest of the world. Not to mention your case gets worse when there are way less restrictions on releasing games on Xbox/PlayStation/Switch than on iOS.
- judge2020 6y ago
  The closed ecosystem with essential services is also a closed ecosystem that runs games. It's also millions or billions of peoples' primary gaming device. iPod Touch exists almost solely to play games on.
  - asddubs 6y ago
    yes, but the comparison doesn't go the other way: a game console isn't a general purpose device, nor as important of a utility for the average person as a modern smartphone is.
    - manicdee 6y ago
      The only reason for that is that console makers haven't pushed into those personal utility applications.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Sure it is, I can run Skype and Web applications on the XBox, alongside plenty of other stuff on the store.
jhatemyjob 6y ago
That analogy would make some modicum of sense but there is a flaw in your argument. Those are video game consoles. WHO GIVES A FUCK
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Video game consoles (in terms of XBox and PS) are nothing more than same spec’d computers. They both (PS4 and up and XB1 and up) run on x86-64 for crying out loud. They just don’t look like a computer (in terms of openness), but the homebrew community has shown that they can be. So the comparison is pretty apt; Some are claiming phones are computers now, so why aren’t actual computers that have been walled up any different?
  - jhatemyjob 6y ago
    What are you saying here exactly? arm64 CPUs aren't real CPUs?
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      No, I’m saying that video game consoles are a very apt comparison because they’re x86. I made no mention of ARM or whether Apple is right or wrong.
      - jhatemyjob 6y ago
        I don't disagree with you. I'm looking at it from a professional standpoint. Because seriously, who cares about video game consoles? In 99% of cases they are nothing more than a leisure activity with no real world consequences other than wasting time. Smartphones on the otherhand, like PCs and laptops, are used for Serious Business™ and should be open platforms because what enterprise in their right mind would give their employees hardware that is controlled by one megacorp to such an extent?
newacct583 6y ago
> Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. I don't believe any of those vendors take anything close to 30% of in-game revenue. And the reason is they compete with each other, quite vigorously, for the same set of users looking for the same set of products (consoles and games). > or classify iOS as somehow different... Right, because Apple is leveraging their dominance of an external market (high end mobile phones) to control pricing in the game market that "should" be more akin to consoles. But it demonstrably isn't. And that is a problem. If you want to argue here, the proper argument is that iOS isn't a monopoly (and that Google charges similar fees). But don't argue that it's the same as a console, that just doesn't make sense.
- dijit 6y ago
  > I don't believe any of those vendors take anything close to 30% of in-game revenue. Worked for one of the worlds largest video games publishers for 6+ years. Now I work for the largest games publisher in the world, so, if anyone would get a discount for being big it would be us. It’s 30% platform fee for sales on the PlayStation or xbox platforms, 70k eur/y developer fee (and you still have to buy hardware which is double sometimes triple price from the consumer stuff). Valve has the same 30% and the same “non-compete” w.r.t discounts on other platforms. This is pretty standard, and is one of the reasons why people tend to release on epic or steam and not both.
  - mthoms 6y ago
    Unless you're a high level executive (which you may be, so apologies in advance!), I don't think you would ever know if a special deal was cut for your company. For publishers/developers getting a special deal, there's just no upside to sharing that information, even internally.
    - dijit 6y ago
      I helped build the PNL for my projects, company doesn’t (can’t) hide finances from the project. Since I can see total unit sales and total income and it’s broken down on SKU- then it would have been easy for me to see a discrepancy from what I was told our deals were by my masters at HQ but there never was one. I think you assume too much of executives, they are consumers of our work, they don’t create any reports or such themselves.
devit 6y ago
There's a bit of a difference since you can easily have multiple consoles as well as a PC, but you can't easily have multiple mobile phones, since it's very inconvenient to carry them, charge them, pay for multiple data plans, sync data, etc. Consoles should also be forced to open up though, and there's no reason why that would "destroy the console ecosystem". They might have to raise the prices of the consoles, but everyone has to do it so it won't matter, and the consoles can also either be financed or monthly fees for online play can be increased.
- deleted 6y ago
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josephcsible 6y ago
> you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up Consoles opening up would be a good thing. I'm not sure why you say it would destroy their ecosystem.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  1983 calls back.
extremeMath 6y ago
Maybe because I'm PCmasterrace, but all of those alternative examples are bad too.
fxtentacle 6y ago
I'm pretty sure you didn't know that, but Xbox doesn't have any restrictions on tools and payment methods. You can literally just download their SDK, build a game, and monetize it however you want. In other words, Xbox is already more open than iOS. I believe they opened it up with the Xbox 360 around 2007. https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms
- ProfessorLayton 6y ago
  I've worked on a top free cross-platform game for Xbox One and our experience was absolutely not "build a game, and monetize it however you want." It took months of back and forth and the Xbox team had plenty of input from UX, to monetization, particularly when it came to users buying stuff on other platforms and using them on Xbox. Sure, MS let us do what Sony and Nintendo would not, so I guess they're the most "open", but make no mistake, it's Microsoft's platform.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  How has the XDK become suddenly available for free?
maxsilver 6y ago
> Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different. Console ecosystems are already open-by-law, based on past cases from the 80s and 90s. You can already publish a game to a Switch or PlayStation without ever going through Nintendo or Sony (so long as you don't steal any copywritten assets to do so). You can even publish your own software, that modifies anyone elses software (again, so long as you don't break copyright to do so). Their eShop/online stores are not yet open, but the devices main software sources are open by law (things like the BluRay drive on a PS4, or the Cartridge slot on a Switch). This is how things like "unauthorized games" were legally published, as well as software editors/debuggers like GameShark, all existed 100% legally as far back as the 90's. Apple is actually attempting to overturn precedent here, they're trying to claim their TOS is somehow more legally binding than everyone elses is, and trying to reverse battles already fought and lost by Atari / Nintendo / Sega, because companies didn't have easy way to retroactively punish users for fair use back then, like Apple can and does do today.
- himinlomax 6y ago
  > copywritten copyrighted
- scarface74 6y ago
  What are the chances that you can clean room reverse engineer all of the software that has to be included with your game to allow it to run on any console? Besides that, most games - especially Fortnite - have an online component and live and die by being able to apply online.
  - maxsilver 6y ago
    > What are the chances that you can clean room reverse engineer all of the software that has to be included with your game to allow it to run on any console? I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you don't actually need to do that to be legal. You just have to clean room reverse engineer the DRM. After that, anything you have legal access to, you can legally use. You could just get past the DRM on the BluRay drive or SD card slot or whatever, and then assuming you have legal rights to use it, load up a full set of Unreal/Unity/Renderware/whatever middleware you want and be off to the races. Again: This caselaw pre-dates always-on-DRM and Apple-angry-tantrum-responses stuff. So this stuff was 100% legal and clear in the PS2 / Xbox / GameCube days, when there was a clear separation between the two. Now that Apple has tried to muddy the water by pretending their DRM is a "platform" that "provides value", I suspect it will be easier to confuse folks

by jmpman 6y ago

Nextgrid 6y ago

I am not saying I agree with the restrictions imposed by the console manufacturers but that case is different. A console is designed for a specific task (playing games and similar software), the market is somewhat competitive and you are free to buy a PC/Mac/Linux and get 99% of the functionality (minus a few exclusive titles). In fact consoles nowadays are just PCs running a custom build of a general-purpose OS. The mobile market is different. There are only 2 dominant players (Apple and Google), they both have similar anti-competitive restrictions (side-loading on Android is a non-starter given the various security warnings, and even then the lack of officially-supported root access on Android means there are things official Google software can do that you can't do without resorting to exploits, plus Android requires you to accept Google's terms & privacy policy which does not comply with the GDPR). There are no other players; the open-source alternatives such as Pinephone are not viable alternatives as they cut you off from the vast majority of apps out there. Let's take a period-correct example, are there any Covid contact-tracing clients available for platforms besides iOS and Android?

d1zzy 6y ago
You don't need to root an Android device to load applications from outside the Play store. The security warning is pretty accurate and useful for most people but if you want to load apps from outside the store then you aren't most people so it shouldn't matter. There's a reason alternatives to iOS and Android haven't picked up, some of those reasons are because for those that care to side load apps they can already do it on Android (or can go further and replace their OS) so not much incentive for a third mobile OS. If there was a strong enough need for an alternative then that would exist already.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  In future versions of Android, you will need to enable developer mode on Android to install applications outside of the Play Store. Google has hindered Android so that it doesn't allow third party app stores to install apps in the background, upgrade apps or batch install apps like the Play Store can.

kgwxd 6y ago

How would opening up consoles destroy their ecosystem?

liability 6y ago
It obviously wouldn't. Windows PCs are open (relative to consoles) and have a more vibrant and diverse set of games available.

gamblor956 6y ago

Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Apple does not allow negotiation. It's take it-or-leave it. Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend. Additionally, while MS and Sony require all developers to use their stores or APIs for IAP, they allow developers (at least large ones) to heavily customize those storefronts, and charge significantly less than 30% for the enforced privilege of using their IAP APIs; the exact rates being a matter of negotiation.

enos_feedler 6y ago
That's too bad. I would rather MS and Sony charge treat all developers equally to allow fair competition on the platform. This kind of preferential treatment creates a bigger divide between existing winners and those wanting to become winners.
criddell 6y ago
That large companies can get use their clout to get a better deal from console stores isn't a particularly compelling defense. > Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play Don't some games allow iOS / PC cross-platform play? Epic's Fortnite did, didn't it?
- judge2020 6y ago
  Yes, iOS has no crossplay restrictions.
awinder 6y ago
“ Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend” I don’t understand how this is materially different from apples investments into Xcode, discoverability & promotion in the App Store/“marketing spend”, etc. Apple does tons of stuff with the big players behind closed doors, they highlight it every keynote and that’s just the ones they talk about on the “real human being” front.

deleted 6y ago

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supernovae 6y ago

Microsoft has allowed sideloading and community developed games and apps on Xbox for a while now.

Spivak 6y ago
I don't think regulators will really see a difference when it comes to the actual market forces at play. If MS doesn't bless your game it's dead regardless of if it's technically possible to get it to run.
- supernovae 6y ago
  Well, Apple crossed that bridge, Microsoft hasn't. I can't for the life of me care what Xbox does when they're not kicking publishers off the store and obviously Epic has their games on Xbox and Playstation so something is different/better in that relationship. Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games.
  - jsjohnst 6y ago
    > Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games. Truth is, iOS has the same. You have been able to sideload apps on iOS, without paying for a developer account, for years.
    - mmis1000 6y ago
      I wouldn't count `you need to connect to the mac and install the apps every 7 days unless you have a development program that cost $100 a year` as `You have been able to sideload apps on iOS`. It need to at least be persistent or it didn't count.
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        > you need to connect to the mac and install the apps every 7 days Except you don’t! I really recommend looking at AltStore before judging the convenience based on how things were years ago when you last had the whim to look.

save_ferris 6y ago

> Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up How is this true? Consoles predate app stores by many decades.

Spivak 6y ago
Consoles were and still are app stores in their entirety. Just because the technical sophistication to lock them down tight wasn't there at the beginning and they could be "hacked" didn't mean the same rules didn't apply. If you want to release a game on Xbox, PlayStation, or GameBoy, you did so at the will of Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. They did, and still do, tightly control the content that's allowed on their consoles.
- deleted 6y ago
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inetknght 6y ago

> destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up I'm not convinced that the console ecosystem would be destroyed if you forced them all to open up. Quite the contrary: I'd happily invest in consoles if I could build it myself with open hardware.

ballenf 6y ago
But the current ecosystem depends on selling the hardware at a loss. We would still have consoles, but the ecosystem would necessarily change. If consoles were not price subsidized like now, their prices would go up and sales would be affected. Presumably there'd just be fewer people who could afford to buy the latest one. You might see lower or higher specs in consoles since the market would be a little more niche. Xbox might merge fully into Windows 10 and the line between console and gamer PC may disappear. At the very least, I think we can all agree that the console ecosystem would change. Maybe "destroy" is too strong, but maybe not.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Nintendo hardly sells hardware at a loss, hence why they focus on game experience and not on ultimate graphics experience.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
We already have an open console market. It's called the PC market. Consoles are nothing but closed PCs. Did opening up destroy the PC market? No. But opening up another console market probably would destroy it; there's no reason to separate a hypothetical new PC market from the old PC market. So if you have a PC market and a PS4 market, and then you open the PS4, you have a PC market and another PC market, and then you just have the PC market.
- xmprt 6y ago
  The console market has been slowly dying for the last decade. If anything, opening the console market could help rejuvenate it by turning consoles into general purpose entertainment devices. And the claim that consoles are just closed down PCs is absurd. Consoles can play AAA games at a fraction of the cost of your average PC. The hardware that goes into building a console is significantly different than a PC.

danShumway 6y ago

People should be careful drawing too many comparisons to consoles, because as someone who owns rooted consoles that run homebrew mods, I can attest that it's actually awesome and improves the user experience in about a dozen ways. My 3DS supports savestates & backups for games like Animal Crossing that let me maintain multiple towns at the same time, custom emulators that run my old Gameboy cartridge backups that I made, really amazing mods like Project Restoration for Majora's Mask, plus custom themes and easier storage management for things like pictures and songs. By comparison, an unhacked Switch still can't even back up all of its save games to the cloud. If you don't want us to go after consoles as well, maybe don't tempt us? I'm sympathetic to the argument that being loss leaders makes consoles unique and special and different from a smartphone, but if the general consensus here is that they're exactly the same... If you're arguing that this case is a slippery slope, try to come up with some consequences farther down the slope that don't sound kind of nice.

ribosometronome 6y ago
The consequence isn't that your 3DS would have been better upon releasing, its that it wouldn't have released if the console market had been required to operate this way.
- danShumway 6y ago
  And again, I'm sympathetic to that argument. But then don't argue that the iPhone is exactly the same. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Apple would stop producing the iPhone if sideloading was allowed. The smartphone market doesn't operate the same way as the console market.
  - ribosometronome 6y ago
    The comparison is the they are both devices that limit installation of software. They're rather similar in that regard. I'm not sure that "This product can only exist if you allow us to have a monopoly" is justification for allowing a monopoly when it comes to video games consoles.

throwaway13337 6y ago

I've seen this comment specifically from you come up a lot in all the apple vs epic conversations. This is whataboutism for sure. It moves the discussion to a less constructive, more re-hashed place. Consoles are different because they're not sold as general purpose computing devices and do not have the market penetration size that iOS does. There is a great argument for allowing all consumers to install whatever software they want on all devices they purchased - including consoles - by law. I'd like to see this - for over a decade, a lot of tech communities have pushed for this - but this isn't the conversation we're having today.

pjmlp 6y ago
What market penetration? iOS is only 20% of the global smartphone market, PS 4 outperforms it on world market share.

fsociety 6y ago

I’m not sure how you can compare a closed ecosystem with essential services - phone, email, text, 2FA, emergency warnings, heart monitoring, medicine tracking, banking, etc. - with a closed ecosystem that runs games. Mobile phones are how many individuals interface with the rest of the world. Not to mention your case gets worse when there are way less restrictions on releasing games on Xbox/PlayStation/Switch than on iOS.

judge2020 6y ago
The closed ecosystem with essential services is also a closed ecosystem that runs games. It's also millions or billions of peoples' primary gaming device. iPod Touch exists almost solely to play games on.
- asddubs 6y ago
  yes, but the comparison doesn't go the other way: a game console isn't a general purpose device, nor as important of a utility for the average person as a modern smartphone is.
  - manicdee 6y ago
    The only reason for that is that console makers haven't pushed into those personal utility applications.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Sure it is, I can run Skype and Web applications on the XBox, alongside plenty of other stuff on the store.

jhatemyjob 6y ago

That analogy would make some modicum of sense but there is a flaw in your argument. Those are video game consoles. WHO GIVES A FUCK

colejohnson66 6y ago
Video game consoles (in terms of XBox and PS) are nothing more than same spec’d computers. They both (PS4 and up and XB1 and up) run on x86-64 for crying out loud. They just don’t look like a computer (in terms of openness), but the homebrew community has shown that they can be. So the comparison is pretty apt; Some are claiming phones are computers now, so why aren’t actual computers that have been walled up any different?
- jhatemyjob 6y ago
  What are you saying here exactly? arm64 CPUs aren't real CPUs?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    No, I’m saying that video game consoles are a very apt comparison because they’re x86. I made no mention of ARM or whether Apple is right or wrong.
    - jhatemyjob 6y ago
      I don't disagree with you. I'm looking at it from a professional standpoint. Because seriously, who cares about video game consoles? In 99% of cases they are nothing more than a leisure activity with no real world consequences other than wasting time. Smartphones on the otherhand, like PCs and laptops, are used for Serious Business™ and should be open platforms because what enterprise in their right mind would give their employees hardware that is controlled by one megacorp to such an extent?

newacct583 6y ago

> Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. I don't believe any of those vendors take anything close to 30% of in-game revenue. And the reason is they compete with each other, quite vigorously, for the same set of users looking for the same set of products (consoles and games). > or classify iOS as somehow different... Right, because Apple is leveraging their dominance of an external market (high end mobile phones) to control pricing in the game market that "should" be more akin to consoles. But it demonstrably isn't. And that is a problem. If you want to argue here, the proper argument is that iOS isn't a monopoly (and that Google charges similar fees). But don't argue that it's the same as a console, that just doesn't make sense.

dijit 6y ago
> I don't believe any of those vendors take anything close to 30% of in-game revenue. Worked for one of the worlds largest video games publishers for 6+ years. Now I work for the largest games publisher in the world, so, if anyone would get a discount for being big it would be us. It’s 30% platform fee for sales on the PlayStation or xbox platforms, 70k eur/y developer fee (and you still have to buy hardware which is double sometimes triple price from the consumer stuff). Valve has the same 30% and the same “non-compete” w.r.t discounts on other platforms. This is pretty standard, and is one of the reasons why people tend to release on epic or steam and not both.
- mthoms 6y ago
  Unless you're a high level executive (which you may be, so apologies in advance!), I don't think you would ever know if a special deal was cut for your company. For publishers/developers getting a special deal, there's just no upside to sharing that information, even internally.
  - dijit 6y ago
    I helped build the PNL for my projects, company doesn’t (can’t) hide finances from the project. Since I can see total unit sales and total income and it’s broken down on SKU- then it would have been easy for me to see a discrepancy from what I was told our deals were by my masters at HQ but there never was one. I think you assume too much of executives, they are consumers of our work, they don’t create any reports or such themselves.

devit 6y ago

There's a bit of a difference since you can easily have multiple consoles as well as a PC, but you can't easily have multiple mobile phones, since it's very inconvenient to carry them, charge them, pay for multiple data plans, sync data, etc. Consoles should also be forced to open up though, and there's no reason why that would "destroy the console ecosystem". They might have to raise the prices of the consoles, but everyone has to do it so it won't matter, and the consoles can also either be financed or monthly fees for online play can be increased.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

josephcsible 6y ago

> you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up Consoles opening up would be a good thing. I'm not sure why you say it would destroy their ecosystem.

pjmlp 6y ago
1983 calls back.

extremeMath 6y ago

Maybe because I'm PCmasterrace, but all of those alternative examples are bad too.

fxtentacle 6y ago

I'm pretty sure you didn't know that, but Xbox doesn't have any restrictions on tools and payment methods. You can literally just download their SDK, build a game, and monetize it however you want. In other words, Xbox is already more open than iOS. I believe they opened it up with the Xbox 360 around 2007. https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms

ProfessorLayton 6y ago
I've worked on a top free cross-platform game for Xbox One and our experience was absolutely not "build a game, and monetize it however you want." It took months of back and forth and the Xbox team had plenty of input from UX, to monetization, particularly when it came to users buying stuff on other platforms and using them on Xbox. Sure, MS let us do what Sony and Nintendo would not, so I guess they're the most "open", but make no mistake, it's Microsoft's platform.
pjmlp 6y ago
How has the XDK become suddenly available for free?

maxsilver 6y ago

> Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different. Console ecosystems are already open-by-law, based on past cases from the 80s and 90s. You can already publish a game to a Switch or PlayStation without ever going through Nintendo or Sony (so long as you don't steal any copywritten assets to do so). You can even publish your own software, that modifies anyone elses software (again, so long as you don't break copyright to do so). Their eShop/online stores are not yet open, but the devices main software sources are open by law (things like the BluRay drive on a PS4, or the Cartridge slot on a Switch). This is how things like "unauthorized games" were legally published, as well as software editors/debuggers like GameShark, all existed 100% legally as far back as the 90's. Apple is actually attempting to overturn precedent here, they're trying to claim their TOS is somehow more legally binding than everyone elses is, and trying to reverse battles already fought and lost by Atari / Nintendo / Sega, because companies didn't have easy way to retroactively punish users for fair use back then, like Apple can and does do today.

himinlomax 6y ago
> copywritten copyrighted
scarface74 6y ago
What are the chances that you can clean room reverse engineer all of the software that has to be included with your game to allow it to run on any console? Besides that, most games - especially Fortnite - have an online component and live and die by being able to apply online.
- maxsilver 6y ago
  > What are the chances that you can clean room reverse engineer all of the software that has to be included with your game to allow it to run on any console? I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you don't actually need to do that to be legal. You just have to clean room reverse engineer the DRM. After that, anything you have legal access to, you can legally use. You could just get past the DRM on the BluRay drive or SD card slot or whatever, and then assuming you have legal rights to use it, load up a full set of Unreal/Unity/Renderware/whatever middleware you want and be off to the races. Again: This caselaw pre-dates always-on-DRM and Apple-angry-tantrum-responses stuff. So this stuff was 100% legal and clear in the PS2 / Xbox / GameCube days, when there was a clear separation between the two. Now that Apple has tried to muddy the water by pretending their DRM is a "platform" that "provides value", I suspect it will be easier to confuse folks