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> Then is it cool if I skip a few meetings to volunteer to help the homeless? That's the thing -- you won't actually go volunteer with the homeless. (Or at lea

> Then is it cool if I skip a few meetings to volunteer to help the homeless? That's the thing -- you won't actually go volunteer with the homeless. (Or at least, 99% of us wouldn't.) But parents actually have to change those diapers. If there's a little kid running around in the background of that Zoom call, someone is doing a lot of hard work to keep the kid alive. And unlike volunteering at the homeless shelter, they can't just decide they don't feel like it.

nicbou 6y ago
> you won't actually go volunteer with the homeless This was in response to the parent post: > an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we know it can continue to exist If this was the reason why parents get a free pass, people who provide essential services would also get to do it on their employer's dime, at the expense of their colleagues. My point across this entire comments section is that this privilege is arbitrary. A lot of people do hard work for all sorts of important reasons, but when they miss work, it gets mentioned in their performance review.
- jdm2212 6y ago
  Systemic problems require systemic solutions. One-off problems require one-off solutions. Parenting in the pandemic is a systemic problem. And even in non-pandemic times, we have public schools, child services, parental leave, etc. The national guard and jury duty are likewise systemic problems; we need lots of guardsmen and lots of jurors. Homelessness is a systemic problem, but the particular way you choose to do community service (or not do it) is for you to sort out mostly on your own.
- davidgay 6y ago
  > If this was the reason why parents get a free pass, people who provide essential services would also get to do it on their employer's dime, at the expense of their colleagues. They do. They're called government employees, and they are paid by taxes at the expense of everyone.
- rpdillon 6y ago
  I guess you're advocating that parents get lower performance ratings during the pandemic if their responsibility to their family has caused them to do lower quality work for their employer. I think that's sort of absurd (for all the reasons jdm2212 has pointed out), but, as a parent of two grade-school children myself, I'd take that deal of it made all the childless people feel they were being treated fairly. I am concerned that performance reviews are generally about communicating paths for development and progress against some goal. I'm not sure how valuable that feedback will be for parents who suffer low performance because of child-rearing responsibilities. I wouldn't suddenly work more hours to improve my performance at the expense of my children's education during this period. It's a poor trade for everyone involved, except perhaps my employer, and even then, it's likely only beneficial for them in the short-term.
  - bitexploder 6y ago
    Tech is full of entitled low empathy technocrats. This may seem harsh, but it is very true in my experience. Especially at organizations that skew younger and have discriminatory or ageists hiring practices. It gets talked about obliquely and there are a lot of compelling and meritocratic arguments about how unfair all of this is to people without kids, but ultimately the concessions are few and far between. This mostly comes down to empathy and it is a skill many young technologists have not cultivated by choice or through a general life path to this point. Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations but I don’t think they are a reach.
    - listennexttime 6y ago
      I'm a low empathy technocrat because: (1) I chose not to have children, and (2) I find it unfair that I'm expected to work longer hours for the same compensation/work profile. Is that it? ... No, that's not it. Your position assumes that: (1) Child-rearing is some a-priori, guaranteed good, and (2) That it apparently should be subsidized by employers, (3) and (both implicitly and explicitly, from you and others) at the expense of their non-child having coworkers. Am I getting something wrong, or missing something? I absolutely think parents should get a break during the pandemic. I think everyone should. The work people are doing here to act like we should worship the ground parents walk is easily the most shocking thing I've witnessed. Honestly, it's not at all a stretch to say you basically insist parents get extra compensation (in the form of extra paid vacation). Call me whatever name you want, but people are well within their rights on this, of all places, to raise an eyebrow. --- The other generous interpretation is that there is some base assumption that we ALL (parents and non-parents) should running ourselves at 90+% capacity. And that children are an accept caveat since parents are usually at 100% capacity. What a terrifying dismal way to look at life. I hope that's not it.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  > If this was the reason why parents get a free pass... You’re framing this discussion as something you flat out don’t accept as reasonable, despite the thoughtful responses in the thread. Is there any point in actual engaging, or have you already made your mind up? Perhaps, rather than repeatedly and blindly repeating your view over and over, like you might somehow convince parents that they’re bad humans who deserve to be punished, try considering the views of the others here... This a pandemic, if there was ever a situation where the situation was a bit more complicated and a bit more empathy to the circumstances was required, this is it.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Many companies do give time off for charity work or public service, match charitable giving, etc. I’d have no problem with my company giving my single, childless colleagues time off or schedule flexibility to engage in some social or public good.
alisonkisk 6y ago
Did any of these companies offer to pay their single workers to work on Covid support systems or handle a shift at the grocery store?
notyourwork 6y ago
> But parents actually have to change those diapers. Parents actually have to have kids to be in a position of caring for a dependent.
- rpdillon 6y ago
  Sure. The point is, once you do, it's a commitment. You don't get to opt out when you feel like you need a break.
  - notyourwork 6y ago
    I don't dispute the point that children require commitment. I'm not sure how that makes employees with children less accountable for work than those who don't have children. What if I have no children but I have a grandparent who is ill and requires care. My point is that if employees with families require support during these hard times, there are probably many who don't have children who also have changed their lives due to this pandemic. Perhaps we should relax the expectations for EVERYONE and not find one circumstance more special than others.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      I think many companies are relaxing expectations for everyone. I have quite a few non-parent co-workers who have taken leave due to the mental health impact COVID has had on them, and my employer has been incredibly flexible in making sure they are able to take care of themselves. I (also as a non-parent) have been mostly ok, but I've been taking more Fridays off than I would otherwise, just to have some more recharge time. But I don't think there's necessarily a one-size-fits-all allowance solution. Taking care of a grandparent does not require the same time commitment, and, crucially, the same lack of control over one's schedule, as child care. Barring emergencies, you can schedule when you take care of your grandparent. With children, you are on call all day long, and kids can and will interrupt you for whatever (or no) reason. You can't just put them in a room by themselves for 8 hours and expect things to go well. Hell, with most young kids you can't even put them in a room by themselves for 30 minutes and expect things to go well.
jbay808 6y ago
Maybe taking care of aging parents with dementia is a better example, although it's less voluntary than children are.
- betterunix2 6y ago
  Parenting is not voluntary. Yes, becoming a parent is voluntary, but once you have a child in your home you cannot put being a parent on hold while you focus on other things.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    I didn't say that parenting is voluntary.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      If not, then what's the point of the comparison you're making?
      - jbay808 6y ago
        That your parents might get dementia, and you might even have to quit your job to take care of them full time if you don't get sufficient leave, and unlike children, that's not even something that you likely made a plan and budget for in advance, or a lifestyle that you chose willingly despite the stress. It's just one of many possible severely challenging, non-optional commitments that can arise in life. (This is in the context of supporting making parent leave available for non-parents).
        betterunix2 6y ago
        Actually where I work you do not get "parental" leave, you get "family" leave which can also be used to care for aged parents (for a time, just like parental leave, until more permanent arrangements can be made). It is also irrelevant to the article, which is not about normal benefits that parents utilize, but the extraordinary considerations being made right now (and again, where I work, those extraordinary policies can be invoked for taking care of any family member, not just children and not just blood relatives). Note also that parents did not choose the situation we are currently in. This is not a matter of lifestyle choice. The lifestyle we chose when we decided to have kids included the expectation of childcare during the day and that is what is failing here.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nicbou 6y ago

> you won't actually go volunteer with the homeless This was in response to the parent post: > an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we know it can continue to exist If this was the reason why parents get a free pass, people who provide essential services would also get to do it on their employer's dime, at the expense of their colleagues. My point across this entire comments section is that this privilege is arbitrary. A lot of people do hard work for all sorts of important reasons, but when they miss work, it gets mentioned in their performance review.

jdm2212 6y ago
Systemic problems require systemic solutions. One-off problems require one-off solutions. Parenting in the pandemic is a systemic problem. And even in non-pandemic times, we have public schools, child services, parental leave, etc. The national guard and jury duty are likewise systemic problems; we need lots of guardsmen and lots of jurors. Homelessness is a systemic problem, but the particular way you choose to do community service (or not do it) is for you to sort out mostly on your own.
davidgay 6y ago
> If this was the reason why parents get a free pass, people who provide essential services would also get to do it on their employer's dime, at the expense of their colleagues. They do. They're called government employees, and they are paid by taxes at the expense of everyone.
rpdillon 6y ago
I guess you're advocating that parents get lower performance ratings during the pandemic if their responsibility to their family has caused them to do lower quality work for their employer. I think that's sort of absurd (for all the reasons jdm2212 has pointed out), but, as a parent of two grade-school children myself, I'd take that deal of it made all the childless people feel they were being treated fairly. I am concerned that performance reviews are generally about communicating paths for development and progress against some goal. I'm not sure how valuable that feedback will be for parents who suffer low performance because of child-rearing responsibilities. I wouldn't suddenly work more hours to improve my performance at the expense of my children's education during this period. It's a poor trade for everyone involved, except perhaps my employer, and even then, it's likely only beneficial for them in the short-term.
- bitexploder 6y ago
  Tech is full of entitled low empathy technocrats. This may seem harsh, but it is very true in my experience. Especially at organizations that skew younger and have discriminatory or ageists hiring practices. It gets talked about obliquely and there are a lot of compelling and meritocratic arguments about how unfair all of this is to people without kids, but ultimately the concessions are few and far between. This mostly comes down to empathy and it is a skill many young technologists have not cultivated by choice or through a general life path to this point. Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations but I don’t think they are a reach.
  - listennexttime 6y ago
    I'm a low empathy technocrat because: (1) I chose not to have children, and (2) I find it unfair that I'm expected to work longer hours for the same compensation/work profile. Is that it? ... No, that's not it. Your position assumes that: (1) Child-rearing is some a-priori, guaranteed good, and (2) That it apparently should be subsidized by employers, (3) and (both implicitly and explicitly, from you and others) at the expense of their non-child having coworkers. Am I getting something wrong, or missing something? I absolutely think parents should get a break during the pandemic. I think everyone should. The work people are doing here to act like we should worship the ground parents walk is easily the most shocking thing I've witnessed. Honestly, it's not at all a stretch to say you basically insist parents get extra compensation (in the form of extra paid vacation). Call me whatever name you want, but people are well within their rights on this, of all places, to raise an eyebrow. --- The other generous interpretation is that there is some base assumption that we ALL (parents and non-parents) should running ourselves at 90+% capacity. And that children are an accept caveat since parents are usually at 100% capacity. What a terrifying dismal way to look at life. I hope that's not it.
wokwokwok 6y ago
> If this was the reason why parents get a free pass... You’re framing this discussion as something you flat out don’t accept as reasonable, despite the thoughtful responses in the thread. Is there any point in actual engaging, or have you already made your mind up? Perhaps, rather than repeatedly and blindly repeating your view over and over, like you might somehow convince parents that they’re bad humans who deserve to be punished, try considering the views of the others here... This a pandemic, if there was ever a situation where the situation was a bit more complicated and a bit more empathy to the circumstances was required, this is it.
ryandrake 6y ago
Many companies do give time off for charity work or public service, match charitable giving, etc. I’d have no problem with my company giving my single, childless colleagues time off or schedule flexibility to engage in some social or public good.

alisonkisk 6y ago

Did any of these companies offer to pay their single workers to work on Covid support systems or handle a shift at the grocery store?

notyourwork 6y ago

> But parents actually have to change those diapers. Parents actually have to have kids to be in a position of caring for a dependent.

rpdillon 6y ago
Sure. The point is, once you do, it's a commitment. You don't get to opt out when you feel like you need a break.
- notyourwork 6y ago
  I don't dispute the point that children require commitment. I'm not sure how that makes employees with children less accountable for work than those who don't have children. What if I have no children but I have a grandparent who is ill and requires care. My point is that if employees with families require support during these hard times, there are probably many who don't have children who also have changed their lives due to this pandemic. Perhaps we should relax the expectations for EVERYONE and not find one circumstance more special than others.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I think many companies are relaxing expectations for everyone. I have quite a few non-parent co-workers who have taken leave due to the mental health impact COVID has had on them, and my employer has been incredibly flexible in making sure they are able to take care of themselves. I (also as a non-parent) have been mostly ok, but I've been taking more Fridays off than I would otherwise, just to have some more recharge time. But I don't think there's necessarily a one-size-fits-all allowance solution. Taking care of a grandparent does not require the same time commitment, and, crucially, the same lack of control over one's schedule, as child care. Barring emergencies, you can schedule when you take care of your grandparent. With children, you are on call all day long, and kids can and will interrupt you for whatever (or no) reason. You can't just put them in a room by themselves for 8 hours and expect things to go well. Hell, with most young kids you can't even put them in a room by themselves for 30 minutes and expect things to go well.

jbay808 6y ago

Maybe taking care of aging parents with dementia is a better example, although it's less voluntary than children are.

betterunix2 6y ago
Parenting is not voluntary. Yes, becoming a parent is voluntary, but once you have a child in your home you cannot put being a parent on hold while you focus on other things.
- jbay808 6y ago
  I didn't say that parenting is voluntary.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    If not, then what's the point of the comparison you're making?
    - jbay808 6y ago
      That your parents might get dementia, and you might even have to quit your job to take care of them full time if you don't get sufficient leave, and unlike children, that's not even something that you likely made a plan and budget for in advance, or a lifestyle that you chose willingly despite the stress. It's just one of many possible severely challenging, non-optional commitments that can arise in life. (This is in the context of supporting making parent leave available for non-parents).
      - betterunix2 6y ago
        Actually where I work you do not get "parental" leave, you get "family" leave which can also be used to care for aged parents (for a time, just like parental leave, until more permanent arrangements can be made). It is also irrelevant to the article, which is not about normal benefits that parents utilize, but the extraordinary considerations being made right now (and again, where I work, those extraordinary policies can be invoked for taking care of any family member, not just children and not just blood relatives). Note also that parents did not choose the situation we are currently in. This is not a matter of lifestyle choice. The lifestyle we chose when we decided to have kids included the expectation of childcare during the day and that is what is failing here.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]