31 ms·

PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

448 points by perch56 6y ago

Molly555 6y ago
Well, as far as I know, monstrous things are happening in this country right now. What is the cost of a complete disconnection of the Internet throughout the country? I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars it cost the authorities. I also heard that people are afraid to follow the news through the Telegram channels, because it is simply not safe. https://utopia.fans/tools/clash-of-the-titans-telegram-vs-whatsapp-vs-utopia/ https://utopia.fans/tools/clash-of-the-titans-telegram-vs-wh...
- SXX 6y ago
  There was only huge problems with internet for the first few days of protests. Now they only censor specific websites, but internet is more or less working around the country.
  - wp381640 6y ago
    Blocking websites thanks to silicon valley network co. Sandvine![0] They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusian-officials-shut-down-internet-with-technology-made-by-u-s-firm https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusia...
    - dfxm12 6y ago
      nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Slightly fewer than half the electorate in the US is excited to vote for an authoritarian president in their own country who has repeatedly talked about not giving up power due to term limits [0] or election results [1], a guy who praised Xi for just naming himself president for life and said he'd like to give it a shot [2]. It follows that a lot are indifferent to dictators abroad. 0 - https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/election-2020/trump-says-supporters-should-call-for-12-more-years-of-his-presidency https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/election-2020/trump-sa... 1 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-election-results-white-house/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-election-results-white-ho... 2 - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-china/trump-praises-chinese-president-extending-tenure-for-life-idUSKCN1GG015 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-china/trump-praises...
      - pcbro141 6y ago
        Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about extending term limits and suspending elections" gets any reaction other than strong universal condemnation from all sides of the political spectrum.
        maerF0x0 6y ago
        > He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.
        pcbro141 6y ago
        I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc. Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup". Am I concerned that he actually would remain in office after losing? No. But I am concerned elements of his base will commit more terror attacks in the name of "preventing a coup". That's why I don't see his undermining of institutions and democracy as funny or trolling to "own the libs". I think by now he's smart enough to be aware there are violent members of his base ready to use violence against perceived opponents and prevent a "deep state coup", and he is purposely trying to rile them up to commit violent acts against Americans by making them feel like they are "under attack/coup" by the deep state/left. But we're supposed to pretend like a President "trolling" about term limits, illegitimate elections, coups, assassinating opponents, and civil wars is normal. This really shouldn't be a left vs right thing. In a normal world, these would be things everyone agrees are bad. But I'm being too political/biased/left/Trump derangement syndrome for rejecting his undermining of democracy and fomenting violence so I'll get downvoted for my unfair pro-democracy anti-violence bias.
    - severino 6y ago
      > They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Why would they bother? Money from their US taxes is already being used to kill people overseas. I don't think that preventing some Belarusians to use Instagram is worse than that.
- JackPoach 6y ago
  Monstrous things happen in any country when government wants to make a point of you. Just ask Julian Assange. It's a terrible situation to be in.
- trhway 6y ago
  Recently even Lukashenko recognized limits of his power against the social media: In Russian: https://t.me/rt_russian/44353 https://t.me/rt_russian/44353 (translation below is mine, ask Google Translate for the skipped parts and/or for a better translation :) "... I warned my senior friend and brother Putin - it is impossible to fight against. Why? - How are you going to fight Telegram channels? Do you have a capability to block the channels? Nobody has such capability, even the ones who created all that web. Americans. You see what is happening there. And telegram-channels are playing the main role there too. [...skip...] To remove the Internet and like that ... Even if Internet is removed today, the telegram-channels will be working from Poland. So, don't you get relaxed. You also have some specific political events coming, and may be right out of the blue..."
bmmayer1 6y ago
Whereas this is monstrous, one has to ask if PandaDoc leadership is acting recklessly by criticizing a foreign dictatorship from afar, while their employees and assets are still at risk. At least Bill Browder had the foresight to get most of his employees (and his money) out of Russia before he started going after Putin...and yet Magnitsky still paid the ultimate price. This is a dangerous game that they're playing and I really hope for the safety of the PandaDoc team. Edit: Updated to reflect that company was founded in Minsk and later relocated to SV. Still dangerous.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Yikes.
- agustif 6y ago
  PandaDoc was founded in Minsk, belarus, so not so much foreigners I guess? ... In 2012 company was founded by Mikita Mikado and Sergey Barysiuk in Minsk, Belarus. In 2014 company headquarters were moved to the Silicon Valley...
  - lmz 6y ago
    Isn't that even worse? Foreigners may be naive, but as natives they should know what the regime may do.
- mattdeboard 6y ago
  I'd suggest that no one has to ask if PandaDoc's leadership is acting recklessly by speaking. Because the alternative is complicity. It is absolutely dangerous to speak, though, you're right about that. The danger exists regardless of whether their leadership speaks. The difference is timing. Yes, it is dangerous. But the party making it unsafe is the fascists. Outrage should be directed there. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-nie...
  - alehul 6y ago
zerr 6y ago
When we see that nations are hostages of their criminal governments - what real mechanisms are there for helping those nations? e.g. what would be the outcome of targeting specifically Lukashenko, Putin, Kim Jong-un along with their inner circles respectively?
- mola 6y ago
  Usually(last 50y) US and EU would initiate sanctions, if it doesn't collide too greatly with their own interests, that would put pressure on respective government by putting their economy in peril. Lately US has stepped down from that role, and openly started diplomatic hostilities towards the EU. EU isn't powerful enough alone, plus they deal with their own economic and social issues which make them not stable enough to afford sanctions.
  - merpnderp 6y ago
    I'm not sure how the US has stepped down from that role: https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanctions-exclus-idUSKBN25S5JU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanc... And if you mean "diplomatic hostiles" in that the US is angry at the EU for not cooperating with the sanction process against targeted countries or meeting their military obligations so that they qualify to vote in international politics, then I guess you're right.
    - tw04 6y ago
      You're not sure? How about Trump fighting against new sanctions and actively pursuing removal of existing ones? https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-battles-new-sanctions-on-russia https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-battles-n... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/us-lifts-sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/us-lifts-sanct...
      - kazagistar 6y ago
newbelarus 6y ago
Hi Folks, We ran the Belarus' post-election survey. Over 10,000+ respondents. Here are the results: - Результат опроса «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://surveymonkey.com/results/SM-W9PZGD9B7/ https://surveymonkey.com/results/SM-W9PZGD9B7/ - Панель индикаторов «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-RKSGN36D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-RKSGN36D/ Here are the results for pre-election survey: - «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — начать опрос — https://surveymonkey.com/r/IMBELARUS-5 https://surveymonkey.com/r/IMBELARUS-5 - Результат опроса «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-VRQR539G7/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-VRQR539G7/ - Панель индикаторов «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-VMNFBZ3D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-VMNFBZ3D/
- newbelarus 6y ago
  Лукашенко Александр - 4,64% - 404 (Lukashenko, 26 years in power) Тихановская Светлана - 87,68% - 7,639 (Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, removed from the country) Others: Дмитриев Андрей - 0,59% - 51 Канопацкая Анна - 0,25% - 22 Черечень Сергей - 0,38% - 33 Etc: Против всех - 2,80% - 244 Предпочитаю не говорить - 3,66% - 319
_fat_santa 6y ago
My last gig we hired a team out of Minsk to help us with a project, brought them over to our US headquarters for about a month to help with planning and buildout. When coronavirus took hold I got laid off and the team was cut loose. Not sure how they are holding up over there but damn I hope they are alright. And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger.
- MuffinFlavored 6y ago
  > And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger. This kind of low-effort comment belongs on Reddit, not HackerNews. It's not insightful/up to the standards of typical content for this community.
  - westmeal 6y ago
    Is your comment insightful?
    - MuffinFlavored 6y ago
      It is. It calls out the fact that trying to say witty remarks to get "upvoted" to the top is going to drag down HN, just how it dragged down Reddit. Why not explain why Lukashenko is a bad person to somebody who doesn't know? That's too much effort. Might as well make a quick joke and get validation from peers.
      - effingwewt 6y ago
        Gtfo. They simply mentioned how this a very worrisome situation, and quite rightly at the end of it, did some venting, which I haooen to agree with. It was your original comment and the later ones trying to defend said comment are the low-effort comments you are complaining about. And if you really don't know about Lukashenko a quick google will suffice,or the, idk hundreds of comments between this post and the last? And finally, it seems to me at least that if anyone here is pandering for worthless internet points, it is you.
    - 6y ago
jdennah 6y ago
imprisoned HR, I'd just let that one run its course.
hippich 6y ago
A few facts about these events: - Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org - A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propaganda media. - While police is involved in some cases, the bulk of arrests, beating, torture is done by special forces where most of them wear full head covering at all times. In the few episodes when such head covering is removed during the altercation, these enforces were running away hiding their faces with hands 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zspZj5wPtaQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zspZj5wPtaQ ; 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5cV8Dl7jA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5cV8Dl7jA - Often, special forces use plain clothes and act like criminals. The only suggestion that they are law enforcement - they often have a baton and full head covering. They never tell you their names, departments, etc. - Last Sunday Belarus saw its first business glass door shattered as a result of protests (protests started on Aug 9th). That door was broken by special forces because some protesters tried to hide from beating there. People donated to the business owner to buy a new door and were standing in the line next day to buy a coffee from that place - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3I8dxAwybE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3I8dxAwybE - To avoid beating by special forces, some running away protesters had to jump into the river. Water is quite cold. They were saved by the rescue team worked on the river, who brought them to the other bank of it. As a result, the whole rescue team was arrested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqA3deW_-Yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqA3deW_-Yg There is a lot more going on, just wanted to share a few things to explain the atmosphere of it.
- brundolf 6y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - some_random 6y ago
    Please don't compare protests like this, it never looks good.
dalbasal 6y ago
This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial relative to their "vital concern" of having a buffer between them and "The West." I'm not saying that we can or should escalate recklessly vis-a-vis Russia. I am saying that they are our neighbors too, not just Russia's. We have our interests too, and more importantly our solidarity. The Lukashenko regime is anachronistic, brutal and failed. This is not a foreign affair. I understand and even sympathize with Putin's concerns on encroachment. He lays them out clearly enough. I will also admit that mistakes have been made, and the the US played its hand too aggressively in the 1990s. I also think that the EU (and NATO, if the US is willing) should negotiate a peace treaty that addresses these. I also genuinely believe this is possible. For that to happen though, we need to take a much firmer stance. We need to be as interested in our neighbors as Russia is. The whole premise of the EU is peace and sovereignty. Those values need to be represented here. Ukraine was abused because of their desire to join the EU, and we treated it as above our paygrade. Now, Russia is openly propping up Lukashenko. Next year it will be Lithuania, Estonia. Putin might decide to intervene on behalf of Victor Orban. We're in this one way or another.
- qaq 6y ago
  "Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well
  - nur0n 6y ago
    Vice made a mind-blowing series on this if anyone wants to see with their own eyes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt47xiDiggbNsZ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt...
  - YarickR2 6y ago
    "Russia bad" western propaganda does it's job even better
allendoerfer 6y ago
> Several international audits and inspections by EY and other reputable companies over the last years prove that the company adhered to all regulations and laws prevalent in Belarus. I don't want to take away from the point of the article, but this made me chuckle. Are we talking about the same "reputable" EY that has been auditing Wirecard for years and years while a giant scam reported on by the Financial Times was happening right in front of their eyes? They might not be held accountable financially, but I think we can and should stop calling them reputable.
atlasunshrugged 6y ago
This is a bit off topic but since there are likely some people in this thread familiar with the happenings in Belarus, does anyone know what's happening with Vitali Shkliarov? I know he was arrested a while back and his lawyer has made some public statements but I haven't seen much about him recently
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to weapons. (The U.S. couldn’t even control Afghan farmers with guns...)
- perfunctory 6y ago
  Major changes sometimes involve civil war, not usually. Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w
  - Kinrany 6y ago
    > Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. Countries that are already mostly democratic don't need violent rebellions?
    - walshemj 6y ago
      Even the glorious revolution of 1688 wasn't as bloodless as many people think and still has repercussions today in NI
- diego_moita 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Philippines, Pakistan). 4) Nigeria, Spain, Greece These were achieved through pacific means. The cases of dictatorships that became democracies through violence are very few: Portugal, Romania... Prior history of violent conflict is precisely what led to dictatorships hardening (leftist guerrilla groups in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, tentative coup in Indonesia, etc.) Also, violent reaction against dictatorships quite often leads to other dictatorships (e.g.: Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran). Edit: again, my point is that violent reaction against oppressive regimes is foolish and leads to the opposite of freedom. Violence is the authoritarians' favorite game because it provides them an excuse to do what they do best: brutal repression. You are already loosing when you play their preferred game.
maerF0x0 6y ago
For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression. * General education (ideally, not state mandated) * General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training) * Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) * *Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate our vote was both counted and correct after the fact. There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation.
- guyomes 6y ago
  > we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) Experts in electronic voting systems are discouraging the use of this technology for high stake elections, even with state-of-the-art schemes: https://www.belenios.org/faq.html https://www.belenios.org/faq.html
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    Right, by "pushing for" I mean we should be taking the academic discussion into the engineering realm to make it a reality. AFAIK there is no existing off the shelf product that satisfies the requirements. One example that is working on such a thing is: https://voting.works/ https://voting.works/
- csomar 6y ago
  I don't think the problem with Belarus is the lack of these but rather of external forces. Russia thinks that Belarus belongs to its control; and a democratic system will most certainly be US-friendly. This is hardly a citizen revolt against dictatorship and is one of the several proxy-war these two guys (US/Russia) are playing worldwide.
  - Taek 6y ago
    It's a lot harder to kidnap citizens when they are armed and surrounded by other armed citizens, especially if all of those citizens have substantial firearms training. I endorse bringing guns to peaceful protests in a state where unmarked officials are kidnapping people in broad daylight. That is exactly the sort of reason that the right to bear arms is planted deep within our constitutional rights.
dshpala 6y ago
I think that protesters didn't think it through enough. Yes, Lukashenko is an awful guy, but what is the alternative? Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  > Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state. If the protesters said they're against Russian influence, they'd be shot down hard by the Russians (with Lukashenka's assent, obviously) to preserve Belarus as a buffer zone towards the West. If they are pro-Russian / pro-status-quo as far as foreign affairs are concerned, there is at least a (slim) possibility of Putin not keeping Lukashenka in office by any means. But considering previous Russian engagements, it seems extremely unlikely Putin will allow anything other than what he'd consider "stable authoritarianism", because the foreign attachments of a democracy (even a bad one) would be too fluent and thus too risky for him.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- roywiggins 6y ago
  Before all this Putin was making noises about integrating the two countries anyway: > Moscow offered Minsk economic benefits in December if it complied with a 1999 deal that envisioned a union state with a common currency, legal system and a joint defense and foreign policy. > The Russian-Belarussian economic confederacy entails the creation of a single tax code, civil code and list of foreign trade rules, in addition to unified oil, gas and electricity market regulators, by 2022, Kommersant reported Monday. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/16/russia-belarus-to-form-economic-confederacy-by-2022-kommersant-a67297 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/16/russia-belarus-to-...
- vvpan 6y ago
  The protest is driven by naitonalism. They symbol of the movement is the a flag that thoroughly separate Belarus from the soviet past and Russia. Anti-Russia is built into the movement.
openasocket 6y ago
I'm sure there's a couple people reading about this and other events in Belarus and wondering why Russia is so involved with Belarus like this. I thought I'd add a little bit on context. Like Ukraine, Belarus serves as a buffer between NATO and Russia, and was once a part of the Soviet Union. But Belarus is especially important to Russia because of Kaliningrad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad . It's a part of Russia that is completely separate from the rest of the country, on the Baltic Sea wedged between Poland and Lithuania. Kaliningrad is heavily militarized, and in any NATO-Russian conflict Kaliningrad would play a vital role. And the country of Belarus is directly between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia. Any Russian war plan would hinge on being able to move troops through Belarus. I would expect Russia to pull out all the stops to defend their interests here EDIT: sorry, Belarus does not directly connect to Kaliningrad, there is a gap of about 50 miles with Lithuania and Poland on either side. But the general point still stands
- ORioN63 6y ago
  I just want to clarify Belarus does _not_ border Kalinigrad. You'd either have to pass Lithuania or Poland. If that happens, the Baltic states should be worried. In my opinion, it won't though. It's neither a threat nor a direct strategic advantage. It won't connect Kalinigrad. Belarus is landlocked. The population did not and is not asking for Russia assistance in any way, only Lukashenka did. While not super friendly, they're friendlier than to the EU bloc. I think it's just not worth the trouble and an eventual net-loss. Unless, they have bigger plans, of course.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  I've thought your general point was based on the fact that they were connected?
  - openasocket 6y ago
    In an a NATO-Russian conflict, having free movement of Russian troops through Belarus means you only have a 50 mile gap to fight through to link up with Kaliningrad, as opposed to over 300 miles directly from the rest of Russia. At 50 miles Kaliningrad and Russian forces fighting from Belarus could have overlapping SAM cover and MLRS artillery support, it's well within the combat radius of attack helicopters, etc. And there are railway lines around that corridor that, once seized, would enable efficient transport of material.
sabujp 6y ago
video of what's going on in belarus : https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ip14z2/belarus_citizens_have_had_enough_and_turn_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ip14z2/bela...
trurl123 6y ago
What's happened with hn? I don't want to read about politics here.
homakov 6y ago
Do not have business with any company that pays taxes in Belarus. We must deprive Lukashenko of money. Many IT companies are attracted to Minsk because of the low cost and here we are.

448 points by perch56 6y ago

Well, as far as I know, monstrous things are happening in this country right now. What is the cost of a complete disconnection of the Internet throughout the country? I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars it cost the authorities. I also heard that people are afraid to follow the news through the Telegram channels, because it is simply not safe. https://utopia.fans/tools/clash-of-the-titans-telegram-vs-whatsapp-vs-utopia/ https://utopia.fans/tools/clash-of-the-titans-telegram-vs-wh...

SXX 6y ago
There was only huge problems with internet for the first few days of protests. Now they only censor specific websites, but internet is more or less working around the country.
- wp381640 6y ago
  Blocking websites thanks to silicon valley network co. Sandvine![0] They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusian-officials-shut-down-internet-with-technology-made-by-u-s-firm https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusia...
  - dfxm12 6y ago
    nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Slightly fewer than half the electorate in the US is excited to vote for an authoritarian president in their own country who has repeatedly talked about not giving up power due to term limits [0] or election results [1], a guy who praised Xi for just naming himself president for life and said he'd like to give it a shot [2]. It follows that a lot are indifferent to dictators abroad. 0 - https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/election-2020/trump-says-supporters-should-call-for-12-more-years-of-his-presidency https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/election-2020/trump-sa... 1 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-election-results-white-house/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-election-results-white-ho... 2 - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-china/trump-praises-chinese-president-extending-tenure-for-life-idUSKCN1GG015 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-china/trump-praises...
    - pcbro141 6y ago
      Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about extending term limits and suspending elections" gets any reaction other than strong universal condemnation from all sides of the political spectrum.
      - maerF0x0 6y ago
        > He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.
        pcbro141 6y ago
        I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc. Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup". Am I concerned that he actually would remain in office after losing? No. But I am concerned elements of his base will commit more terror attacks in the name of "preventing a coup". That's why I don't see his undermining of institutions and democracy as funny or trolling to "own the libs". I think by now he's smart enough to be aware there are violent members of his base ready to use violence against perceived opponents and prevent a "deep state coup", and he is purposely trying to rile them up to commit violent acts against Americans by making them feel like they are "under attack/coup" by the deep state/left. But we're supposed to pretend like a President "trolling" about term limits, illegitimate elections, coups, assassinating opponents, and civil wars is normal. This really shouldn't be a left vs right thing. In a normal world, these would be things everyone agrees are bad. But I'm being too political/biased/left/Trump derangement syndrome for rejecting his undermining of democracy and fomenting violence so I'll get downvoted for my unfair pro-democracy anti-violence bias.
  - severino 6y ago
    > They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Why would they bother? Money from their US taxes is already being used to kill people overseas. I don't think that preventing some Belarusians to use Instagram is worse than that.
JackPoach 6y ago
Monstrous things happen in any country when government wants to make a point of you. Just ask Julian Assange. It's a terrible situation to be in.
trhway 6y ago
Recently even Lukashenko recognized limits of his power against the social media: In Russian: https://t.me/rt_russian/44353 https://t.me/rt_russian/44353 (translation below is mine, ask Google Translate for the skipped parts and/or for a better translation :) "... I warned my senior friend and brother Putin - it is impossible to fight against. Why? - How are you going to fight Telegram channels? Do you have a capability to block the channels? Nobody has such capability, even the ones who created all that web. Americans. You see what is happening there. And telegram-channels are playing the main role there too. [...skip...] To remove the Internet and like that ... Even if Internet is removed today, the telegram-channels will be working from Poland. So, don't you get relaxed. You also have some specific political events coming, and may be right out of the blue..."

bmmayer1 6y ago

Whereas this is monstrous, one has to ask if PandaDoc leadership is acting recklessly by criticizing a foreign dictatorship from afar, while their employees and assets are still at risk. At least Bill Browder had the foresight to get most of his employees (and his money) out of Russia before he started going after Putin...and yet Magnitsky still paid the ultimate price. This is a dangerous game that they're playing and I really hope for the safety of the PandaDoc team. Edit: Updated to reflect that company was founded in Minsk and later relocated to SV. Still dangerous.

ceejayoz 6y ago
Yikes.
agustif 6y ago
PandaDoc was founded in Minsk, belarus, so not so much foreigners I guess? ... In 2012 company was founded by Mikita Mikado and Sergey Barysiuk in Minsk, Belarus. In 2014 company headquarters were moved to the Silicon Valley...
- lmz 6y ago
  Isn't that even worse? Foreigners may be naive, but as natives they should know what the regime may do.
mattdeboard 6y ago
I'd suggest that no one has to ask if PandaDoc's leadership is acting recklessly by speaking. Because the alternative is complicity. It is absolutely dangerous to speak, though, you're right about that. The danger exists regardless of whether their leadership speaks. The difference is timing. Yes, it is dangerous. But the party making it unsafe is the fascists. Outrage should be directed there. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-nie...
- alehul 6y ago

zerr 6y ago

When we see that nations are hostages of their criminal governments - what real mechanisms are there for helping those nations? e.g. what would be the outcome of targeting specifically Lukashenko, Putin, Kim Jong-un along with their inner circles respectively?

mola 6y ago
Usually(last 50y) US and EU would initiate sanctions, if it doesn't collide too greatly with their own interests, that would put pressure on respective government by putting their economy in peril. Lately US has stepped down from that role, and openly started diplomatic hostilities towards the EU. EU isn't powerful enough alone, plus they deal with their own economic and social issues which make them not stable enough to afford sanctions.
- merpnderp 6y ago
  I'm not sure how the US has stepped down from that role: https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanctions-exclus-idUSKBN25S5JU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanc... And if you mean "diplomatic hostiles" in that the US is angry at the EU for not cooperating with the sanction process against targeted countries or meeting their military obligations so that they qualify to vote in international politics, then I guess you're right.
  - tw04 6y ago
    You're not sure? How about Trump fighting against new sanctions and actively pursuing removal of existing ones? https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-battles-new-sanctions-on-russia https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-battles-n... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/us-lifts-sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/us-lifts-sanct...
    - kazagistar 6y ago

newbelarus 6y ago

Hi Folks, We ran the Belarus' post-election survey. Over 10,000+ respondents. Here are the results: - Результат опроса «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://surveymonkey.com/results/SM-W9PZGD9B7/ https://surveymonkey.com/results/SM-W9PZGD9B7/ - Панель индикаторов «День Выборов Президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-RKSGN36D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-RKSGN36D/ Here are the results for pre-election survey: - «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — начать опрос — https://surveymonkey.com/r/IMBELARUS-5 https://surveymonkey.com/r/IMBELARUS-5 - Результат опроса «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-VRQR539G7/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-VRQR539G7/ - Панель индикаторов «Кандидаты на пост президента Беларуси» — https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-VMNFBZ3D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-VMNFBZ3D/

newbelarus 6y ago
Лукашенко Александр - 4,64% - 404 (Lukashenko, 26 years in power) Тихановская Светлана - 87,68% - 7,639 (Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, removed from the country) Others: Дмитриев Андрей - 0,59% - 51 Канопацкая Анна - 0,25% - 22 Черечень Сергей - 0,38% - 33 Etc: Против всех - 2,80% - 244 Предпочитаю не говорить - 3,66% - 319

_fat_santa 6y ago

My last gig we hired a team out of Minsk to help us with a project, brought them over to our US headquarters for about a month to help with planning and buildout. When coronavirus took hold I got laid off and the team was cut loose. Not sure how they are holding up over there but damn I hope they are alright. And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger.

MuffinFlavored 6y ago
> And fuck Lukashenko, I hope the man chokes on a cheeseburger. This kind of low-effort comment belongs on Reddit, not HackerNews. It's not insightful/up to the standards of typical content for this community.
- westmeal 6y ago
  Is your comment insightful?
  - MuffinFlavored 6y ago
    It is. It calls out the fact that trying to say witty remarks to get "upvoted" to the top is going to drag down HN, just how it dragged down Reddit. Why not explain why Lukashenko is a bad person to somebody who doesn't know? That's too much effort. Might as well make a quick joke and get validation from peers.
    - effingwewt 6y ago
      Gtfo. They simply mentioned how this a very worrisome situation, and quite rightly at the end of it, did some venting, which I haooen to agree with. It was your original comment and the later ones trying to defend said comment are the low-effort comments you are complaining about. And if you really don't know about Lukashenko a quick google will suffice,or the, idk hundreds of comments between this post and the last? And finally, it seems to me at least that if anyone here is pandering for worthless internet points, it is you.
  - 6y ago

jdennah 6y ago

imprisoned HR, I'd just let that one run its course.

hippich 6y ago

A few facts about these events: - Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org - A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propaganda media. - While police is involved in some cases, the bulk of arrests, beating, torture is done by special forces where most of them wear full head covering at all times. In the few episodes when such head covering is removed during the altercation, these enforces were running away hiding their faces with hands 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zspZj5wPtaQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zspZj5wPtaQ ; 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5cV8Dl7jA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5cV8Dl7jA - Often, special forces use plain clothes and act like criminals. The only suggestion that they are law enforcement - they often have a baton and full head covering. They never tell you their names, departments, etc. - Last Sunday Belarus saw its first business glass door shattered as a result of protests (protests started on Aug 9th). That door was broken by special forces because some protesters tried to hide from beating there. People donated to the business owner to buy a new door and were standing in the line next day to buy a coffee from that place - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3I8dxAwybE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3I8dxAwybE - To avoid beating by special forces, some running away protesters had to jump into the river. Water is quite cold. They were saved by the rescue team worked on the river, who brought them to the other bank of it. As a result, the whole rescue team was arrested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqA3deW_-Yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqA3deW_-Yg There is a lot more going on, just wanted to share a few things to explain the atmosphere of it.

brundolf 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- some_random 6y ago
  Please don't compare protests like this, it never looks good.

dalbasal 6y ago

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial relative to their "vital concern" of having a buffer between them and "The West." I'm not saying that we can or should escalate recklessly vis-a-vis Russia. I am saying that they are our neighbors too, not just Russia's. We have our interests too, and more importantly our solidarity. The Lukashenko regime is anachronistic, brutal and failed. This is not a foreign affair. I understand and even sympathize with Putin's concerns on encroachment. He lays them out clearly enough. I will also admit that mistakes have been made, and the the US played its hand too aggressively in the 1990s. I also think that the EU (and NATO, if the US is willing) should negotiate a peace treaty that addresses these. I also genuinely believe this is possible. For that to happen though, we need to take a much firmer stance. We need to be as interested in our neighbors as Russia is. The whole premise of the EU is peace and sovereignty. Those values need to be represented here. Ukraine was abused because of their desire to join the EU, and we treated it as above our paygrade. Now, Russia is openly propping up Lukashenko. Next year it will be Lithuania, Estonia. Putin might decide to intervene on behalf of Victor Orban. We're in this one way or another.

qaq 6y ago
"Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well
- nur0n 6y ago
  Vice made a mind-blowing series on this if anyone wants to see with their own eyes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt47xiDiggbNsZ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt...
- YarickR2 6y ago
  "Russia bad" western propaganda does it's job even better

allendoerfer 6y ago

> Several international audits and inspections by EY and other reputable companies over the last years prove that the company adhered to all regulations and laws prevalent in Belarus. I don't want to take away from the point of the article, but this made me chuckle. Are we talking about the same "reputable" EY that has been auditing Wirecard for years and years while a giant scam reported on by the Financial Times was happening right in front of their eyes? They might not be held accountable financially, but I think we can and should stop calling them reputable.

atlasunshrugged 6y ago

This is a bit off topic but since there are likely some people in this thread familiar with the happenings in Belarus, does anyone know what's happening with Vitali Shkliarov? I know he was arrested a while back and his lawyer has made some public statements but I haven't seen much about him recently

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to weapons. (The U.S. couldn’t even control Afghan farmers with guns...)

perfunctory 6y ago
Major changes sometimes involve civil war, not usually. Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w
- Kinrany 6y ago
  > Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. Countries that are already mostly democratic don't need violent rebellions?
  - walshemj 6y ago
    Even the glorious revolution of 1688 wasn't as bloodless as many people think and still has repercussions today in NI
diego_moita 6y ago
> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Philippines, Pakistan). 4) Nigeria, Spain, Greece These were achieved through pacific means. The cases of dictatorships that became democracies through violence are very few: Portugal, Romania... Prior history of violent conflict is precisely what led to dictatorships hardening (leftist guerrilla groups in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, tentative coup in Indonesia, etc.) Also, violent reaction against dictatorships quite often leads to other dictatorships (e.g.: Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran). Edit: again, my point is that violent reaction against oppressive regimes is foolish and leads to the opposite of freedom. Violence is the authoritarians' favorite game because it provides them an excuse to do what they do best: brutal repression. You are already loosing when you play their preferred game.

maerF0x0 6y ago

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression. * General education (ideally, not state mandated) * General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training) * Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) * *Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate our vote was both counted and correct after the fact. There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation.

guyomes 6y ago
> we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) Experts in electronic voting systems are discouraging the use of this technology for high stake elections, even with state-of-the-art schemes: https://www.belenios.org/faq.html https://www.belenios.org/faq.html
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  Right, by "pushing for" I mean we should be taking the academic discussion into the engineering realm to make it a reality. AFAIK there is no existing off the shelf product that satisfies the requirements. One example that is working on such a thing is: https://voting.works/ https://voting.works/
csomar 6y ago
I don't think the problem with Belarus is the lack of these but rather of external forces. Russia thinks that Belarus belongs to its control; and a democratic system will most certainly be US-friendly. This is hardly a citizen revolt against dictatorship and is one of the several proxy-war these two guys (US/Russia) are playing worldwide.
- Taek 6y ago
  It's a lot harder to kidnap citizens when they are armed and surrounded by other armed citizens, especially if all of those citizens have substantial firearms training. I endorse bringing guns to peaceful protests in a state where unmarked officials are kidnapping people in broad daylight. That is exactly the sort of reason that the right to bear arms is planted deep within our constitutional rights.

dshpala 6y ago

I think that protesters didn't think it through enough. Yes, Lukashenko is an awful guy, but what is the alternative? Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.

formerly_proven 6y ago
> Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state. If the protesters said they're against Russian influence, they'd be shot down hard by the Russians (with Lukashenka's assent, obviously) to preserve Belarus as a buffer zone towards the West. If they are pro-Russian / pro-status-quo as far as foreign affairs are concerned, there is at least a (slim) possibility of Putin not keeping Lukashenka in office by any means. But considering previous Russian engagements, it seems extremely unlikely Putin will allow anything other than what he'd consider "stable authoritarianism", because the foreign attachments of a democracy (even a bad one) would be too fluent and thus too risky for him.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
roywiggins 6y ago
Before all this Putin was making noises about integrating the two countries anyway: > Moscow offered Minsk economic benefits in December if it complied with a 1999 deal that envisioned a union state with a common currency, legal system and a joint defense and foreign policy. > The Russian-Belarussian economic confederacy entails the creation of a single tax code, civil code and list of foreign trade rules, in addition to unified oil, gas and electricity market regulators, by 2022, Kommersant reported Monday. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/16/russia-belarus-to-form-economic-confederacy-by-2022-kommersant-a67297 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/16/russia-belarus-to-...
vvpan 6y ago
The protest is driven by naitonalism. They symbol of the movement is the a flag that thoroughly separate Belarus from the soviet past and Russia. Anti-Russia is built into the movement.

openasocket 6y ago

I'm sure there's a couple people reading about this and other events in Belarus and wondering why Russia is so involved with Belarus like this. I thought I'd add a little bit on context. Like Ukraine, Belarus serves as a buffer between NATO and Russia, and was once a part of the Soviet Union. But Belarus is especially important to Russia because of Kaliningrad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad . It's a part of Russia that is completely separate from the rest of the country, on the Baltic Sea wedged between Poland and Lithuania. Kaliningrad is heavily militarized, and in any NATO-Russian conflict Kaliningrad would play a vital role. And the country of Belarus is directly between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia. Any Russian war plan would hinge on being able to move troops through Belarus. I would expect Russia to pull out all the stops to defend their interests here EDIT: sorry, Belarus does not directly connect to Kaliningrad, there is a gap of about 50 miles with Lithuania and Poland on either side. But the general point still stands

ORioN63 6y ago
I just want to clarify Belarus does _not_ border Kalinigrad. You'd either have to pass Lithuania or Poland. If that happens, the Baltic states should be worried. In my opinion, it won't though. It's neither a threat nor a direct strategic advantage. It won't connect Kalinigrad. Belarus is landlocked. The population did not and is not asking for Russia assistance in any way, only Lukashenka did. While not super friendly, they're friendlier than to the EU bloc. I think it's just not worth the trouble and an eventual net-loss. Unless, they have bigger plans, of course.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
I've thought your general point was based on the fact that they were connected?
- openasocket 6y ago
  In an a NATO-Russian conflict, having free movement of Russian troops through Belarus means you only have a 50 mile gap to fight through to link up with Kaliningrad, as opposed to over 300 miles directly from the rest of Russia. At 50 miles Kaliningrad and Russian forces fighting from Belarus could have overlapping SAM cover and MLRS artillery support, it's well within the combat radius of attack helicopters, etc. And there are railway lines around that corridor that, once seized, would enable efficient transport of material.

sabujp 6y ago

video of what's going on in belarus : https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ip14z2/belarus_citizens_have_had_enough_and_turn_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ip14z2/bela...

trurl123 6y ago

What's happened with hn? I don't want to read about politics here.

homakov 6y ago

Do not have business with any company that pays taxes in Belarus. We must deprive Lukashenko of money. Many IT companies are attracted to Minsk because of the low cost and here we are.