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Low doses may also prevent Alzheimers from progressing.[1][2] Ayahuasca/DMT[3] and psilocybin[4] may have similar effects. It's fascinating that a monthly visi

Low doses may also prevent Alzheimers from progressing.[1][2] Ayahuasca/DMT[3] and psilocybin[4] may have similar effects. It's fascinating that a monthly visit to your local shaman may still be more safe and effective for depression, anxiety, and cognitive decline than anything western medicine has been able to produce. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdosed-lsd-may-finally-be-the-breakthrough-for-alzheimers-disease/#6925566b53a8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdos... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/ [4] https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-treat-alzheimers/ https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-treat-a...

ianai 6y ago
Any studies for the Stamets stack of psilocybin, lions mane, niacin? I’m intrigued by lions mane because it’s legal, of course.
- AstralStorm 6y ago
  Psylocybin is just barely tested, but some results are promising. Niacin is irrelevant thus far. Lion's mane is also promising but benefits seem very limited and small. The "stack" is insane as we do not understand what each of the components does separately or in any combination and the rationale for including one of them is based on discredited ideas.
AstralStorm 6y ago
Funny thing though, we use ergoloid derivatives in western medicine too. These are alpha-blockers for treating migraines or hypertension. There are psychotropic drugs based on these as well, and a bunch of discredited nootropics. Now, high BDNF on its own is not a good or bad thing. It is released both when injuries and when growth happens... I would be very careful recommending a shaman, unless you happen to have evidence for how well traditional approach to treatment works compared to recent drugs or current mental health treatments, or a precise description of what those people do, as it's more than just "take this drug and go home". We could use such studies for sure, and not for cultural appropriation! We lack sufficient data to recommend for or against. (Partly because countries virtually banned research because "drugs" are "bad". Others are trying to hold it exclusive for their culture, which is wrong too. I think they should stand to gain from it if it works.)
- bashallah 6y ago
  Shamans do not give you drugs and send you home. That’s a drug dealer. Shamans are more like tour guides. Walking you through your own experience.
  - AstralStorm 6y ago
    This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.) It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced safely and openly. As well as researched without interrupting it. A tour guide does specific things. We could know what makes for a good or bad one. Is a person who fakes the practice as good as a native life long taught shaman? Which kind of shaman is best? Is tailoring the experience needed and in what way? Etc.
    - bb88 6y ago
      > This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. While I don't doubt there is some human component to this, what I worry about are interactions with standard prescriptions and OTC medicines.
      - AstralStorm 6y ago
        Of course. Ergoloids have a long list of side effects, which is why they're considered outdated or third line treatments for many illnesses. But not others, say for severe migraines, they're still best or first line available agents. Those risks are always weighted against benefits.
    - mcgt 6y ago
      Wouldn't the data we have on mental health show that contemporary wisdom on its treatment is failing? Given spikes in rates of anxiety and depression over the past century, among other adverse effects, this isn't an unreasonable conclusion to make. That said, maybe it's more important to look at how these have been dealt with in the past than the data we have in the present.
bb88 6y ago
It is also true that when we could have been exploring psychedelics back in the 60/70's, but they were made illegal mostly as a political backlash to the counterculture -- thus pretty much stifling the last 50 years of research on them. "Punching-the-hippy" politics aside, the political leaders told us there was nothing beneficial ever about those drugs, and we typically believed them, even lumping scientists who wanted to study them in the same camp as the "UFO Cranks". So the question is, is it western medicine that's the issue, or the lack of science based politics?
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  Honestly a fair number of studies have been done and the problem with all that stuff is there's always been a relatively high rate of complications and adverse outcomes. Responses/experiences are hard to predict. I get that in some people it can be a wonderful thing, nearly a miracle cure. I've done plenty of psychedelics myself, but I always find the insistence by proponents that any harm done is the fault of the user ("poor preparation", "not the right setting", "inexperienced guide", etc, etc) to be really disingenuous and unscientific. Like, there are legit some people that really won't respond well to this as therapy. Now, conventional pharmaceuticals and therapy have the same issues, but the reality is psychedelic therapies have never been a clear favorite.
  - bb88 6y ago
    I do absolutely agree on that. What would be nice is that you get the benefits of the drug without any of the "bad trip" experiences, in a controlled way.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      If you look at every trip as a learning experience, even a bad trip doesn't have to be all bad. Now, I wouldn't wish my own bad trips on anyone, but I've found I learned far, far more from them than I did my good trips, so in that sense they were actually beneficial. Also, the term "bad trip" may be a misnomer. They might be more fittingly called "difficult trips" or "challenging trips". It is possible to draw meaning and even wisdom from such trips.
nurettin 6y ago
visit to your psychiatrist will get you addicted to ritalin and valium. Visit to your local shaman will get you addicted to acid and shrooms. Your local dealer will get you addicted to meth, heroine and coke. Your choice. [https://omitted.useless.links https://omitted.useless.links]
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Claiming that acid or shrooms is addictive like heroine or cocaine is a big “Citation Needed” moment.
  - nurettin 6y ago
    Yes this guy says two things are addictive, so he must have said that two are alike in their addictiveness. I really don't know what you need, but I'm pretty sure I don't have it.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Heck, saying that LSD is addictive at all is actually a really strong claim, which you didn’t support.
      - Nuzzerino 6y ago
        I've met no less than three people who have claimed to have had a psychological addiction to LSD at one point.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - nurettin 6y ago
        And you didn't acknowledge your silly logic error so we are even.
        deleted 6y ago
api 6y ago
Western medicine did produce it, or at least started to catch on. Then the war on drugs moral panic hit and all that research was shut down.
acituan 6y ago
> It's fascinating that a monthly visit to your local shaman may still be more safe and effective for depression, anxiety, and cognitive decline than anything western medicine has been able to produce. I get the romanticized enthusiasm but let’s not crap on scientific process that easily. Sure there has been political pressures that stagnated psychedelic research, but for a while western medicine has been trying to work this out in a replicable and safely administrable manner. Shamans don’t operate under those limitations, hence the apparent “superiority”, with all associated, undocumented risks. To get to the point of this paper, there are “western” substances that help with BDNF and cognitive decline too, eg. lithium, which is not as psychoactive and has a perfectly well documented risk profile (not saying risk free).
jackmodern 6y ago
I take 1-2 doses per month (in the 25 microgram range) with 2.5-5mg THC (via mint edible) and that has done wonders for me both in terms of mood, acceptance, and empathy towards others around me. I don't know if it will fix someone with severe issues, but for me it is sort of a maintenance thing that keeps my cognitive health flowing in the right direction and my overall sense of well being positive. It's certainly not for everyone, but definitely a net positive for many.
GuB-42 6y ago
As a side note, LSD is a product of western medicine, psylocybin an DMT, while both present in nature have been characterized by western medicine and you are linking to western medicine papers. Western medicine, which I would rather call scientific medicine is not against psychedelics and natural remedies, but instead of telling you to eat the funny shaped mushroom, it will study what exactly is in that mushroom, extract the good stuff, remove the bad, maybe try to improve it. It will then test it, with accurate dosing and if everything goes well, produce a treatment that is similar to what the shaman did but better. I'd say the only thing the shaman has over a registered doctor is that he can spend more time with you, and hopefully have a positive influence on your lifestyle. But it is not a shortcoming of scientific medicine, in fact, it recognizes it. It is more about doctors being too few and overworked.

ianai 6y ago

Any studies for the Stamets stack of psilocybin, lions mane, niacin? I’m intrigued by lions mane because it’s legal, of course.

AstralStorm 6y ago
Psylocybin is just barely tested, but some results are promising. Niacin is irrelevant thus far. Lion's mane is also promising but benefits seem very limited and small. The "stack" is insane as we do not understand what each of the components does separately or in any combination and the rationale for including one of them is based on discredited ideas.

AstralStorm 6y ago

Funny thing though, we use ergoloid derivatives in western medicine too. These are alpha-blockers for treating migraines or hypertension. There are psychotropic drugs based on these as well, and a bunch of discredited nootropics. Now, high BDNF on its own is not a good or bad thing. It is released both when injuries and when growth happens... I would be very careful recommending a shaman, unless you happen to have evidence for how well traditional approach to treatment works compared to recent drugs or current mental health treatments, or a precise description of what those people do, as it's more than just "take this drug and go home". We could use such studies for sure, and not for cultural appropriation! We lack sufficient data to recommend for or against. (Partly because countries virtually banned research because "drugs" are "bad". Others are trying to hold it exclusive for their culture, which is wrong too. I think they should stand to gain from it if it works.)

bashallah 6y ago
Shamans do not give you drugs and send you home. That’s a drug dealer. Shamans are more like tour guides. Walking you through your own experience.
- AstralStorm 6y ago
  This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.) It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced safely and openly. As well as researched without interrupting it. A tour guide does specific things. We could know what makes for a good or bad one. Is a person who fakes the practice as good as a native life long taught shaman? Which kind of shaman is best? Is tailoring the experience needed and in what way? Etc.
  - bb88 6y ago
    > This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. While I don't doubt there is some human component to this, what I worry about are interactions with standard prescriptions and OTC medicines.
    - AstralStorm 6y ago
      Of course. Ergoloids have a long list of side effects, which is why they're considered outdated or third line treatments for many illnesses. But not others, say for severe migraines, they're still best or first line available agents. Those risks are always weighted against benefits.
  - mcgt 6y ago
    Wouldn't the data we have on mental health show that contemporary wisdom on its treatment is failing? Given spikes in rates of anxiety and depression over the past century, among other adverse effects, this isn't an unreasonable conclusion to make. That said, maybe it's more important to look at how these have been dealt with in the past than the data we have in the present.

bb88 6y ago

It is also true that when we could have been exploring psychedelics back in the 60/70's, but they were made illegal mostly as a political backlash to the counterculture -- thus pretty much stifling the last 50 years of research on them. "Punching-the-hippy" politics aside, the political leaders told us there was nothing beneficial ever about those drugs, and we typically believed them, even lumping scientists who wanted to study them in the same camp as the "UFO Cranks". So the question is, is it western medicine that's the issue, or the lack of science based politics?

Enginerrrd 6y ago
Honestly a fair number of studies have been done and the problem with all that stuff is there's always been a relatively high rate of complications and adverse outcomes. Responses/experiences are hard to predict. I get that in some people it can be a wonderful thing, nearly a miracle cure. I've done plenty of psychedelics myself, but I always find the insistence by proponents that any harm done is the fault of the user ("poor preparation", "not the right setting", "inexperienced guide", etc, etc) to be really disingenuous and unscientific. Like, there are legit some people that really won't respond well to this as therapy. Now, conventional pharmaceuticals and therapy have the same issues, but the reality is psychedelic therapies have never been a clear favorite.
- bb88 6y ago
  I do absolutely agree on that. What would be nice is that you get the benefits of the drug without any of the "bad trip" experiences, in a controlled way.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    If you look at every trip as a learning experience, even a bad trip doesn't have to be all bad. Now, I wouldn't wish my own bad trips on anyone, but I've found I learned far, far more from them than I did my good trips, so in that sense they were actually beneficial. Also, the term "bad trip" may be a misnomer. They might be more fittingly called "difficult trips" or "challenging trips". It is possible to draw meaning and even wisdom from such trips.

nurettin 6y ago

visit to your psychiatrist will get you addicted to ritalin and valium. Visit to your local shaman will get you addicted to acid and shrooms. Your local dealer will get you addicted to meth, heroine and coke. Your choice. [https://omitted.useless.links https://omitted.useless.links]

ashtonkem 6y ago
Claiming that acid or shrooms is addictive like heroine or cocaine is a big “Citation Needed” moment.
- nurettin 6y ago
  Yes this guy says two things are addictive, so he must have said that two are alike in their addictiveness. I really don't know what you need, but I'm pretty sure I don't have it.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Heck, saying that LSD is addictive at all is actually a really strong claim, which you didn’t support.
    - Nuzzerino 6y ago
      I've met no less than three people who have claimed to have had a psychological addiction to LSD at one point.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - nurettin 6y ago
      And you didn't acknowledge your silly logic error so we are even.
      - deleted 6y ago

api 6y ago

Western medicine did produce it, or at least started to catch on. Then the war on drugs moral panic hit and all that research was shut down.

acituan 6y ago

> It's fascinating that a monthly visit to your local shaman may still be more safe and effective for depression, anxiety, and cognitive decline than anything western medicine has been able to produce. I get the romanticized enthusiasm but let’s not crap on scientific process that easily. Sure there has been political pressures that stagnated psychedelic research, but for a while western medicine has been trying to work this out in a replicable and safely administrable manner. Shamans don’t operate under those limitations, hence the apparent “superiority”, with all associated, undocumented risks. To get to the point of this paper, there are “western” substances that help with BDNF and cognitive decline too, eg. lithium, which is not as psychoactive and has a perfectly well documented risk profile (not saying risk free).

jackmodern 6y ago

I take 1-2 doses per month (in the 25 microgram range) with 2.5-5mg THC (via mint edible) and that has done wonders for me both in terms of mood, acceptance, and empathy towards others around me. I don't know if it will fix someone with severe issues, but for me it is sort of a maintenance thing that keeps my cognitive health flowing in the right direction and my overall sense of well being positive. It's certainly not for everyone, but definitely a net positive for many.

GuB-42 6y ago

As a side note, LSD is a product of western medicine, psylocybin an DMT, while both present in nature have been characterized by western medicine and you are linking to western medicine papers. Western medicine, which I would rather call scientific medicine is not against psychedelics and natural remedies, but instead of telling you to eat the funny shaped mushroom, it will study what exactly is in that mushroom, extract the good stuff, remove the bad, maybe try to improve it. It will then test it, with accurate dosing and if everything goes well, produce a treatment that is similar to what the shaman did but better. I'd say the only thing the shaman has over a registered doctor is that he can spend more time with you, and hopefully have a positive influence on your lifestyle. But it is not a shortcoming of scientific medicine, in fact, it recognizes it. It is more about doctors being too few and overworked.