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Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers
- iamgopal 6y agoAnyone with first hand experience of LSD ?
- nomoreusernames 6y agoyes. wow my very own ama
- alexilliamson 6y agoWould you rather take 1000 duck-doses sized of LSD, or
- awakeasleep 6y agoIt felt like my mind was a watch, and a kid opened it and all the springs shot out!
- throwaway5938 6y agoPlease, you're on a discussion site where the main demographic is actively microdosing to improve their productivity at startups inbetween two editions of Burning Man. You'd be hardpressed to find someone without a first-hand experience of acid. But yeah, you pretty much tend to remember everything that happens to you during a trip, even years afterwards, which naively makes me believe your brain and memories become more malleable during that timeframe. This would explain why bad trips could be traumatizing. Then there's gwern who did a RCT self-experiment and reported no benefits but the way he measured said 'benefits' (stupid little tests, self-rating) isn't convincing.
- MacsHeadroom 6y agoHey now, some of us microdose LSD to work at public companies too.
- robinduckett 6y agoI don't microdose and I can't see how it improves productivity over say ritalin or other methylphenidates.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- nix23 6y agoProbably because you don't? I don't drink beer, I can't see why it tastes better then Grog.
- almostdeadguy 6y agoUtterly pretentious, dweeby reason to take acid
- nefitty 6y agoDifferent folks have different goals. There’s nothing inherent about any chemical or tool.
- almostdeadguy 6y agoTaking acid to "improve your productivity at startups" is a tool for people with no appreciation for leisure or mind expansion. There's also a difference between taking something to cope or function and taking something because you think it makes you the Rembrandt of startups or whatever. I mean do what you want, and I'll reserve my right to clown on goofballs like this.
- c-c-c-c-c 6y ago/thread
- gwern 6y agoThe prior probability was always low. And it is not as if any of the followup experiments or surveys have reported much better results, you know. A charitable assessment of past LSD microdosing experiments in humans, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/08/11/384412 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/08/11/384412 https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-019-0308-4 https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0211023 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-018-5119-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-018-5119-... https://www.gwern.net/docs/nootropics/2019-bershad.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nootropics/2019-bershad.pdf , might be that "the evidence is consistent with scattered small benefits which do not line up with the large effects claimed in self-report data or the microdosing community's claims". This doesn't much change the summary. Even at face-value (though you have to wonder about losing 80% of their data), what functional changes does some transient blood serum increases in BDNF cause, and why would some chemical results noticeably change one's assessment of the experimental evidence reported so far? It will be much more interesting to read the other data, which, however, remains unknown: "assessment of mood, cognition, empathy, and creativity that will be reported elsewhere." (That's from the pain paper reporting this study. Apparently they intend to salami-slice this study into at least 3 papers.)
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoSee https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml, look for the 'experiences' links halfway down. Lots more on everything else, excellent impartial site, donate a little if you can.
- mplanchard 6y agoI’m not sure why people are downvoting this. Erowid is a treasure trove of first hand experiences for a huge variety of illicit substances. It’s been around forever, and you can, if I recall, generally find good, pragmatic advice on how to approach a given drug.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoI've met this before. The vast majority of people on HN are pretty even-handed about things but there's just a few for whom anything that isn't anti-drug, if even just plain facts that don't show drugs in a bad light, will annoy them. Just how it is, don't worry about it.
- justanargentine 6y agoIf you want to try it, I'd suggest reading The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide by James Fadiman first.
- malux85 6y agoYes, I have tried it. Only micro-doses. It takes about an hour to kick in, and for me, lasts about 6-8 hours. It feels like it silences any inner critic in me, so I am a lot more free thinking. I have used it several times to overcome getting stuck on a programming problem, but I have to write the solution down because I usually get too distracted while using it to be able to focus enough to implement. The problems it's good at are ones that require abstract thought - for example I was trying to come up with a data structure to accurately represent atomic 3D structures, and then also algorithms to query them and model how they interact, this is where it was most useful for me. I came out with 10ish pages of notes and drawings that were enough to allow "sober" me to code it out and test it. Physically it makes me sweat a lot, but it's a very strange sweat - not like an exercise sweat - but the sweat feels very clean and pure and is odourless. I often shallow breathe and it suppresses my appetite, so I have to set reminders on my phone to eat, exercise and drink while I'm taking it. Everything feels like it's clean and my visual resolution goes up a lot more, it's interesting for me to see how much of what we see is perceptual and not limited by the physics of our eye - I can see a lot more clearly and everything feels "cleaner" I sometimes get visual effects, which I can only describe as absolutely beautiful and mind blowing. It's very hard to describe because I can control them to a certain extent and as a neurotic person I thought that the "loss of control" would freak me out, but it's not like that at all. Last time I used I saw the most beautiful honey-like flowing pattern in the wood grain of the door, which was continuously moving and just utterly beautiful. I also witnessed the curtains rotating (imagine a sine wave going up and down, the curtains looked like they were doing that) and also the pillows on the couch looked like they were breathing. The bad side is that it stops me from sleeping, so the next day I'm usually a zombie until I can get a good night sleep the following night. It's an amazing tool, and I love how creative it makes me as a senior programmer, but there's no way I'd do it every day or anything. The first time you do it, you should definitly do it with someone experienced and in a safe place, where you have no other obligations for that day. If the feeling is getting too intense I find that a citrus drink seems to decrease the intensity (I have no idea if thats a placebo or not) If anyone has any questions ask away
- Phemist 6y agoSounds like you had a bit more than a micro-dose, but interesting way of applying these doses!
- neverminder 6y agoMicrodosing. I didn't feel much difference at all, but then I should probably mention that I go above and beyond in terms of leading healthy lifestyle, so it's likely my system is already as optimized as it can be.
- bigyikes 6y agoThe drug never fails to boost my outlook on humanity and restore my natural curiosity and thirst for life. I don’t take it frequently or consistently, but I do take it religiously.
- 50 6y agoMe too. I always get this sense that I've been asleep my whole life during and after the experience. For instance, the seemingly mundane things (wall, ground, chair, window, tree, bird, etc) are perceived in a sacred light.
- stupidcar 6y agoI used it at a birthday party a few years ago. My main takeaways were twofold: First, it made me understand the concept of good and bad "vibes" w.r.t. to drug use. It was clear that the experience of taking LSD recreationally in a group of people was a much a social experience as a chemical one. Keeping the "vibe" positive, by playing the right kind of music, staying chill, and saying and doing the right things, was important not to break the spell. Unfortunately, as somebody who suffers from social anxiety, this awareness made things quite stressful for me at times, as I felt I had to constantly maintain some level of self-regulation, which was not made easier by how intoxicated I was. I have the same problem when smoking weed in company. Second, while I hoped for the kind of psychological breakthroughs and revelations that some people describe having using LSD, I didn't experience them. I never felt connected to the universe or some greater purpose. I certainly had periods of intense introspection, but they didn't reveal anything to my about my character I wasn't already aware of. I think part of that was that I was already in my mid-thirties at the time, and had done plenty of introspection over the years. I already had a good understanding of my own character — my strengths, weaknesses, hopes, fears and regrets — and I suspect anybody with a similar disposition won't have any breakthroughs using LSD. Ultimately, I didn't regret trying LSD, but it didn't leave me with any desire to try it again. Despite its reputation, it just seemed like another drug to me. Stronger in its effect than most, but I never felt like a child of the universe, I just felt high.
- celticninja 6y agoPsychological breakthroughs or revelations tend to come while tripping alone or in a small group.
- c-c-c-c-c 6y agoYeah it's crazy how much set and setting can affect your psyche and the outcome of your trip
- saiya-jin 6y agoI had those experiences repeatedly (shrooms, which should be +-same), but always alone. I can't imagine doing that journey with anybody else, even close girlfriend, it would be just negative interference and distractions. In fact, I lost all my regular senses, laying on the bed, listening to very nice shamanic music (that must have helped a bit). I understood where religion comes from, or so it seemed to me at that time. At the end of the trip I had spiritual experience without any classical presence of god, at the end just chemicals going haywire in my brain. By huge margin consistently the most intense experience in my life, and I've been through some stuff (birth of my son, 6 months backpacking in Himalaya, adrenaline/mountain sports, not in that order). That was some 10 years ago, I don't even feel the need to try again. Kind of lesson took, not much more to gain, only risking some bad drama.
- coldtea 6y agoYes. A few times (6-7) across several years. Perception of time is altered (slowd down mostly), you can see intricate pulsating, kaleidoscopic, patterns in ordinary things (flowers, the floor, carpet, etc), you get deep thoughts and feelings (can be a rollercoaster), it greatly enhances music (it's like seeing in color for the first time). Sex on it is not bad either... Never had a bad trip, ymmv.
- primroot 6y agoI only tried it once. The worst I can remember is finding out the next day that there were this very unhealthy substitutes (such as the N-Bomb) being sold instead of the real thing, so I can't tell if I took actual LSD. The experience was fine. It went through several stages. First it was visual, then more introspective. I felt something I can only describe as being dead, meaning that I felt very aware of being matter, and I thought of that beauty around us that is not alive and is simply indifferent and potentially destructive to life and any sense of purpose. Then at some point I was cleaning some fresh basil to prepare something to eat and I found a caterpillar among the leaves and carried it to the garden. The caterpillar jumped and I felt like an electric shock had gone through my body. Later, while sitting with my friend (also on LSD), I narrated this experience to my friend and I started crying. My voice sometimes sounded robotic to my ears.
- surfsvammel 6y agoYes. Twenty+ years ago. Crazy stuff. I wouldn’t want to take it recreationally, too risky I think. You get truly confused and risk having very bad experiences (I’ve had those and they can be like living a nightmare that you cannot wake up from). But, it also gave me some interesting experiences, like the confusion of senses. Truly smelling colors was a weird one, one that I remember very vividly. Other than that, it’s lots of fireworks for the mind.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- alchemism 6y agoYes, from micro- to macro- There’s something interesting to be found around ~1200mics but it’s -definitely- not something for the inexperienced to try.
- w33n1s 6y agoThe most interesting thing that happened to me was that I looked at my hands — they were my hands but I was seeing them as they appeared when I was a kid. Hard to explain. But I was looking right at them with my own eyes and seeing my hands as I remember them from around 4 years old. I realized how much of my perception is filtered through memories and preconception, rather than just raw visuals from my eyes.
- kaikai 6y agoThey don’t break it down in the abstract, but BDNF is brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which is associated with neuron growth and long term memory.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoThis is very helpful, thank you for the context.
- brian_herman 6y agoYes, thanks very insightful comments this is exactly why I go on hacker news! The comments are worth their weight in gold.
- AstralStorm 6y agoAs well as certain cancers and many other things. Neuroscience is taking but baby steps, it's currently in the XVII century equivalent stage of development. An interesting thing to know is how seizures and mental illnesses interact, for instance. Yes, we're talking ancient early XX century "connect a brain to electric current" kind of thing but at better precision. Electroshock therapy. We know so very little here. It could well be that psychedelics and this share the mechanism of action. Or not.
- justanargentine 6y agoFor anybody interested in psychedelics (and medicine), this is a good watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q0un2GPsSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q0un2GPsSQ
- nothal 6y agoAlso Michael Pollan has a great book called How to Change your Mind.
- nullc 6y agoSo does exercise.
- IncRnd 6y agoMaybe this microdosing thing is why so many people write incorrect and vulnerable crypto.
- nix23 6y agoOr maybe it's the other way around.
- aaronharder 6y agoIncorrect and vulnerable crypto is why people are microdosing LSD?
- nix23 6y agoMaybe that too, we will never know it. Or maybe you just can write good crypto if your on LSD, just look at the best OS and where it was ~developed...Berkeley :)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 0xcde4c3db 6y agoI skimmed the literature a bit, and the results on this seem to be pretty mixed. Basically, exercise boosts serum BDNF, except when it doesn't. In particular, it doesn't seem to be clear what the necessary conditions are for a sustained effect on BDNF, as opposed to a previously sedentary/untrained person getting a transient boost from a single bout of exercise. One study's [1] introduction summarized it thus (a lot of parenthetical citations removed for brevity/readability): > Animal studies have implicated the neurotrophin BDNF and the growth factor IGF‐1 in mediating the beneficial effects of exercise on hippocampal function and structure as well as cognition. In humans, findings are less clear since exercise‐induced increases in peripheral BDNF have been consistently shown only immediately after a single bout of aerobic exercise. Studies involving longer exercise interventions (i.e., 6 weeks up to 1 year) have reported mixed results. While the majority of reports have found no changes in circulating BDNF and IGF‐1 at the end of the training period, Zoladz and colleagues (2008) demonstrated increased plasma BDNF after 5 weeks of endurance training in physically active male adults. Further, Leckie et al. (2014) found that 1 year of moderate‐intensity walking significantly elevated serum BDNF only in individuals older than 65 years of age. Lastly, Heisz et al. (2017) reported that, although no group differences in serum BDNF were found following 6 weeks of high‐intensity interval training in young adults, participants with greater fitness improvements had higher serum BDNF levels than their counterparts with lower fitness gains. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6555846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6555846/
- manishoo 6y agoDoes this imply that high doses of LSD do not increase BDNF levels?
- mplanchard 6y agoThey didn’t research that question, and I don’t see any reason why it would be implied from their findings.
- manishoo 6y agoIn the Abstract section it is shown that 20 micrograms does not increase BDNF levels after 2 hours, as opposed to 5 micrograms. It is shown however that it increases after 4 hours. That was a little confusing
- mplanchard 6y agoThat’s true. 20 ug is still quite a low dose though. People taking LSD for recreational purposes will generally take somewhere from 100-500 ug. A “hit” is generally 100-200 ug. I don’t think their research allows us to infer anything about BDNF response at these levels, which is what I (possibly mistakenly) assumed you were asking about.
- unreal37 6y agoAnd 10 micrograms does not increase it. So 5 and 20 does, but 10 does not?
- uxp100 6y agoOr "there is no evidence" 10 ug does.
- cma 6y agoDoes recovery from brain damage increase the same growth factor?
- Procrastes 6y agoJust one study, but apparently not. "Plasma BDNF concentrations did not correlate with either short-term fatal outcome or type of injury following severe TBI."[1] 1. Plasma brain-derived neurotrophic factor levels after severe traumatic brain injury. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02699052.2015.1077993#:~:text=Results%3A%20Severe%20TBI%20was%20associated,%E2%88%921%20(%C2%B1SEM) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02699052.2015.10.... Brain Injury Journal.
- alex_young 6y agoThere must be some axiom here that mention of LSD in any story, however scientific in nature, turns into trip reports.
- coldtea 6y agoWhy wouldn't it? It's the #1 thing people associate with it as a personal experience...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ECA_stax 6y agodude, brooooooo, lsd.... bro....
- sniglom 6y agoThis isn't reddit.
- dvduval 6y agoFor me, I don't believe I really ever saw anything that was different than reality, but the attention to my senses was heightened. It was a new curiosity about everything I saw or heard. if you wave your hand in front of your face there's a trail behind it. This sort of thing is heightened. I remember going to a racquetball court and it seems like they were many balls in the court when there actually there was only one. I went on top of a mountain and looked down at the trees below and it was almost like the trees were vibrating with life. I remember the sound of super Mario jumping giving me the giggles because the sound was completely different and interesting and it reverberated through the room. So there is a certain curiosity that is derived from the senses. That was my experience
- dqpb 6y ago> I don't believe I really ever saw anything that was different than reality > I remember going to a racquetball court and it seems like they were many balls in the court when there actually there was only one
- tprice7 6y agoThere isn't necessarily a contradiction there, e.g. you could just see a single ball at any given moment but feel like it was a different ball than the one you saw a few seconds ago. Ditto for the sounds. So you aren't literally seeing anything that isn't there but you may still form higher-level impressions that are not accurate.
- __blockcipher__ 6y agoThe specific visual they’re describing, at least if it was the effect I’ve experienced while actually tripping, is you see the same ball forked into a number of balls that end up merging back together. That was on like 200ug, probably with some cannabis thrown in for good measure. More broadly you are right, they’re not “hallucinations”. Huge pet peeve of mine when people call them that. I was telling a friend who’s never tripped on anything about seeing faces in the cliffs. They looked at me like I was stark raving mad and I realized they thought I meant I was seeing a photo-realistic face implanted on the cliff face instead of the reality which was like when (sober) people are gazing at clouds and “seeing” patterns. Most of us when we are new to tripping make it all about the “visuals”. But the realization eventually comes that in order to get the really crazy visuals your whole reality needs to be tripping really hard and one way it manifests is the visual field. There’s no way to experience “just visuals”, it’s going to come with the bodily sensations and altered temporal processing etc. I’ve always found it fascinating how people interpret the melting away of time. Some describe it as lasting “forever”, but that’s just the word they’re using to describe the notion that getCurrentTime() is returning null rather than a fixed number.
- nicoffeine 6y agoLow doses may also prevent Alzheimers from progressing.[1][2] Ayahuasca/DMT[3] and psilocybin[4] may have similar effects. It's fascinating that a monthly visit to your local shaman may still be more safe and effective for depression, anxiety, and cognitive decline than anything western medicine has been able to produce. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdosed-lsd-may-finally-be-the-breakthrough-for-alzheimers-disease/#6925566b53a8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdos... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/ [4] https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-treat-alzheimers/ https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-treat-a...
- ianai 6y agoAny studies for the Stamets stack of psilocybin, lions mane, niacin? I’m intrigued by lions mane because it’s legal, of course.
- AstralStorm 6y agoPsylocybin is just barely tested, but some results are promising. Niacin is irrelevant thus far. Lion's mane is also promising but benefits seem very limited and small. The "stack" is insane as we do not understand what each of the components does separately or in any combination and the rationale for including one of them is based on discredited ideas.
- AstralStorm 6y agoFunny thing though, we use ergoloid derivatives in western medicine too. These are alpha-blockers for treating migraines or hypertension. There are psychotropic drugs based on these as well, and a bunch of discredited nootropics. Now, high BDNF on its own is not a good or bad thing. It is released both when injuries and when growth happens... I would be very careful recommending a shaman, unless you happen to have evidence for how well traditional approach to treatment works compared to recent drugs or current mental health treatments, or a precise description of what those people do, as it's more than just "take this drug and go home". We could use such studies for sure, and not for cultural appropriation! We lack sufficient data to recommend for or against. (Partly because countries virtually banned research because "drugs" are "bad". Others are trying to hold it exclusive for their culture, which is wrong too. I think they should stand to gain from it if it works.)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- BosunoB 6y agoFor anybody looking to try psychedelics without the sketchiness of finding a dealer or buying online, you should know that you can discretely grow psilocybin mushrooms in your home for less than a hundred dollars initial investment, and with very little effort. It's legal to buy the spores in most states, and it only takes a couple of months to grow a nice canopy. The best guide is https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ or https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/8e7g6n/how_to_grow_bulk_without_a_pc_or_brf_cakes_broke/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/8e7g6n/how_to_grow.... Expect to read a lot before you start growing.
- MiroF 6y agoMost states ... except California.