19 ms·

'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

264 points by Bostonian 6y ago

seibelj 6y ago
The libertarian non-profit Reason Foundation and it’s associated magazine (linked article) have become much more prominent and linked as a respected news source since the beginning of the year. They do fantastic reporting with a logical (although biased towards freedom and individual rights) and informative style, which has simply disappeared from mainstream sources like the NYT and WaPo. I trust Reason much more than other sources.
- mchusma 6y ago
  I will +1 it as well. I have read Reason for about 10 years, and I like that they wear they have a clear ideology and have consistently stood up against US Republican and Democratic positions that don't make sense. (e.g. their work on pointless licencing for things is great).
- lawwantsin17 6y ago
  Bias towards Union busting you mean.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    Busting a union could literally fix the policing problem in this country. Concentrated power is a problem whether it’s a union, a corporation, or a government. It’s not black and white.
ptero 6y ago
This is the environment in which the journalism originally flourished: obtaining and reporting information that is not readily accessible otherwise, often against the wishes of the powers on the ground; and frequently being in danger while obtaining it. I am not glorifying this setup, it is horrible; but the information it provides is very valuable. Unfortunately, nowadays the journalist working on such project will not enjoy the backing at home: gone are the newspapers that would support independent investigations and publish important reports even when they do not line up with the editor's personal preferences. So the journalist reporting an unconventional view has to working with the other side of the political spectrum, which leads to being boxed all the same, just in a different box. I think there is a real need for independent reporting, including (especially) on hot button topics. I even think that many people would gladly pay for such news if we can figure out the right model that ensures independence: it is perfectly OK to publish a partisan report, as long as publishing an opposing view is also acceptable. My 2c.
- jkhdigital 6y ago
  What’s weird is that the script is flipped here, if this article is to be believed: it is the alleged “underdog” that is attempting to suppress journalistic freedom (through intimidation) to control the news narrative.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    The script was always shaky. If there are lines of mayors, governors, millionaires, corporations, and celebrities lining up to support you, you are not an underdog. There are not similar lines to make sure a given periodical has room and support to safely provide agenda-free reporting.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    Reality isn’t a movie script.
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    > if this article is to be believed: it is the alleged “underdog” that is attempting to suppress journalistic freedom (through intimidation) to control the news narrative. Consider the source. She has some history of standing against reform movements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Rommelmann##MeNeither https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Rommelmann##MeNeither
- humanrebar 6y ago
  Could unions and professional associations fill that gap? Why aren't they now? Where are groups like the ACLU? It's worth noting that journalism as a profession has a problem with letting itself become political. Seems like for a journalism association to be effective in these cases, it must insist on the impartiality that most institutions seem to be finding too difficult lately.
  - Dahoon 6y ago
    >Could unions and professional associations fill that gap? This and the below >journalism as a profession has a problem with letting itself become political Unions are by definition political, so that wouldn't solve the problem you describe.
sradman 6y ago
Interview with the same journalist: DarkHorse Podcast with Nancy Rommelmann and Bret Weinstein [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30
- Fellshard 6y ago
  Bret, notably, lives in Portland, and has been making direct observations about these events for a while.
Fellshard 6y ago
This is vital to understand for anyone who thinks they know what's going on at Portland, and - on a broader scale - most current events. There is a massive polarization of who consumes which facts, and this is simply an encoding of that: a drip-feed of exactly what one group of people wish to see.
- kombucha111 6y ago
  And you seem to be part of that honestly.
mschuster91 6y ago
Having done a fair share of media work on and in German protests myself: the biggest problem is that video evidence can and will be used by cops to go after activists - and that includes material from way outside a riot scene, given that police also look for such tiny details as shoes to (attempt to) identify people. The people at such events have something to lose: careers, families, friendships, years behind bars. In contrast, in countries like Turkey, Belarus or other dictatorships, where the fear is getting killed regardless of protests, the situation is different - people on these protests want their faces to become public so that they cannot be "disappeared".
- zo1 6y ago
  Go after them for what? Are they doing something illegal?
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Intimidation, faked/blown-up charges, attempts to recruit spies, witness summons... the list is endless.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Cops have plenty of ways of going after people who haven’t committed crimes. https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...
    - unishark 6y ago
      In other words, protestors are harassing, assaulting, and robbing reporters because they might otherwise be unjustly framed for minor crimes.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        Or targeted with a “you should kill yourself” campaign like the FBI tried to do against King.
ppf 6y ago
If you spend any time on the Portland subreddit, you'll see plenty of stories and comments about how the city is just fine, and only Trump fans with an agenda push a "rioting and burning narrative". It's amazing watching hypocritical narrative control in action. These are the same people pushing for police body cameras.
- Fellshard 6y ago
  And is there not a selection bias at play in a subreddit? People who don't follow the majority opinions of those on a subreddit are routinely hounded down and mass downvoted until they leave, seeing it's futile to try and converse there.
  - ppf 6y ago
    Of course there is, except I'm sure a lot of the people on that subreddit are also heavily involved in "protesting". There certainly is a selection bias at play in the general population of Portland, too ;) Edit: I also find it fascinating that the users of the Portland subreddit will shun or ban you if you are not actually in Portland, as I am sure that a lot of those folks strongly favour all immigration in general. As I said, it's a miniature picture of hypocritical narrative control in action.
    - Kednicma 6y ago
      We favor legal immigration. Have your papers in order, be able to speak coherently and talk to people, and be useful to society. We aren't fond of random fascists coming in from across the Washington-Oregon border, let alone driving in from Idaho, just to have street fights and arguments. From our perspective, you're just some hateful outsider who has no experience living in a society. If you want our respect, then you need to be a better person, or at a minimum you need to demonstrate that you're capable of being embedded within a societal context.
      - amadeuspagel 6y ago
        Can't tell whether this is parody of "cityism" - city level parochialism - or the real thing.
themgt 6y ago
This isn't just limited to Portland but is becoming a general aspect of these protests now, e.g. here[1] was DC last night where a Washington Post reporter was hounded out of the protest and then followed by "minders" to prevent his return. Protesters are now blocking media from filming their demonstration, shining lights into a reporter’s face, blocking shots with fans umbrellas and following like “minders” ... “We have our press we know and trust,” this young woman says [1] https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1302411058175307777 https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/130241105817530777...
- phkahler 6y ago
  Maybe the press needs drones.
  - chippy 6y ago
    Some of them do (and are registered with the FAA to fly them). However there are a number of no fly zones, some which have recently been added, in addition to not flying them over peoples houses.
z9e 6y ago
To me this is a mix of the media no longer being trusted, the protestors wanting to control the narrative that is spread from their actions, and them trying to protect themselves from being filmed and then arrested.
tomohawk 6y ago
Happened to a reporter on the Key bridge in DC. https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877 https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877 EDIT: apparently "You're not allowed to Post" also applies
- youareostriches 6y ago
  The Daily Caller has been managed by Tucker Carlson, who attacks protesters on the air virtually every day. The Daily Caller is known for right-wing troll articles. There’s no chance in hell that this publication would ever portray protesters favorably.
  - amadeuspagel 6y ago
    And therefore protestors have a right to prevent them from filming in a public space?
    - youareostriches 6y ago
      Oh sure, the Daily Caller certainly has a right to complain. They just shouldn’t expect anyone to take them seriously about their intentions to report without bias.
      - jes 6y ago
        All reporting is biased, even when people strive to avoid it. To be human is to have biases and preferences, even if you are unaware of them.
  - prepend 6y ago
    Do you think the Daily Caller shouldn’t be allowed to film and report?
    - youareostriches 6y ago
      “Allowed” to report? When did we get into the topic of government interference with the press? This is about what private citizen protesters do. But I suppose if you were concerned with government interference in the media you’d be going after the fascist who has been crying “Lügenpresse” for the past four years—who also wants to silence criticism of himself on social media by executive fiat.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
zaroth 6y ago
The mainstream news reporting on Portland (and other regional rioting) got to the point where they were bald-faced lying about peaceful protests standing in front of burning buildings. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that these professional journalists think that their readers can’t understand a nuanced world of gray and need everything reduced to black and white. There can be a concept of “BLM” that is obviously right and important to support, while there is also a well organized radical contingent taking cover within BLM that is wreaking havoc on the streets and will bully or beat up anyone who stands up to them (police or bystander alike). That they call themselves anti-fascists while taking a truly fascist approach to spreading their ideology is a rhetorical pattern I’m seeing a lot lately; accusing your opponent of exactly what you are doing. Portland just “celebrated” their 100th day of rioting. There was video from last night where they set a fellow rioter on fire while trying to throw Molotov cocktails at police. The PR / social media contingent that supports the riots is frankly impressive. The article mentions Google sheets listing approved journalists and ways to help fund them. The level of organization belies a depth to the organization that I think most people assume is more organic and rag-tag than it really is.
- mc32 6y ago
  Obviously this is to control the narrative. Why would they shoo and have "minders" ala repressive regimes? Is it because "fake news" (that'd be a tough sell coming from the left who question that assertion). Is it because they don't want people to see the underbelly of the movement or at least the bad elements in their movement? What we do know is that if you are an organization looking for change, if you're not very careful, your well intended movement will be usurped by those who have ulterior motives --they will use your movement as "useful idiots" and you may ultimately loose control of your movement to demagogues. There is a difference between people who are honestly looking to make things better and those riding such wave to enhance their own power.
  - smitty1e 6y ago
    I was on the edge of the Tea Party protests a decade back. The Deep State crushed that effort via the IRS leaning on the leadership. Social Media has us on the cusp of genuine, organic local leadership of society. But there is a continuous tension to resolve between the Young Turks and the Ancien Regime.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sneak 6y ago
It makes me sad that an institution I used to like and respect, reason.com, seems more and more often to subscribe to the standard (and, taken uncritically, untrue) set pieces of the standard American culture war. This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous. The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertarian audience have shifted a lot more authoritarian in recent years, so it’s a logical evolution. It’s just super disappointing to see them regurgitating the off-the-shelf battle lines instead of digging for real.
- youareostriches 6y ago
  > This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous. The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertarian audience have shifted a lot more authoritarian in recent years, so it’s a logical evolution. It’s just super disappointing to see them regurgitating the off-the-shelf battle lines instead of digging for real. You’d think it ironic that a publication titled “Reason” would succumb to ideology, but the truth is that libertarianism (which, in the US, is seen as unequivocally right-wing) has always been used as a trojan horse for ideology. So they’ll attack a movement they perceive as being driven by an ideology (pro-social-welfare, pro-economic equality) which they oppose.
  - amadeuspagel 6y ago
    Publications are generally not titled x-ism, where x is the ideology they represent. Libertarianism is not "a trojan horse for ideology" it is an ideology.
    - happytoexplain 6y ago
      >Libertarianism is not "a trojan horse for ideology" it is an ideology. It can be both, though for many proponents it's natural to blindly reject the notion of one's identity being polluted by people who are ostensibly on "your side". It's not something that's only happening in libertarianism, but I strongly agree that it is abused in the way the parent describes.
14 6y ago
I was just looking at the zoom of the Nikon p1000 and from over 3 miles away you can easily zoom in and read a piece of paper. Even if these people don’t want someone recording them on the ground, a camera could literally be so far away they would not even see it recording them. It just seems ignorant. I pretty much assume I am being recorded at all times and act as such. Too many hidden cameras, security cameras and cameras so good I would not even see them in action. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA
Dahoon 6y ago
>But it's easy to understand why protesters use them: to shape the narrative the country sees about the protests. That is a very biased view. The reality is that photo and film is used to target people by the government even if you are at a peaceful protest (I'm not talking about rioters). Hence the hyperbolic "filming equals death" thing. Getting filmed or having your picture taken at a protest in the States is on the brink of becoming dangerous. The US checks 11 out of the 13 signs of fascism. After next election, likely 12 or all 13.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  That’s some absurd hyperbole. Death? These people are scared of going to jail. They know they are breaking the law and they know if they get caught they could go to jail.
  - someguydave 6y ago
    They only go to jail if they are judged to have committed crimes in court. I wonder if antifa gives similar due process rights to the people it accuses and attacks?
    - rudiv 6y ago
      Are you under the impression that due process (in terms of the US legal doctrine) is applicable to anyone but US state and federal governments?
      - someguydave 6y ago
        are you saying court doesn’t exist?
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      "They only go to jail if they are judged to have committed crimes in court." Not true. Plenty of people in jail have not been found guilty of anything and are there waiting their day in court. That could go on for months or even years. That's not to mention people dying in police custody, and the fact that some people's lives and reputation could be ruined by the mere accusation of a crime.
mopsi 6y ago
Comparing scenes from Minsk with scenes from major US cities has been very interesting this year...
sudonim 6y ago
There’s reason to be skeptical. From a local Portland journalist covering the protests: https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 “ Not that I want to legitimize this @reason piece, but I have filmed copious moments of ppl throwing things at police/vandalizing bldgs/etc & have never been told I’m not allowed to film. I have never heard of the so-called “IPC.” The lack of sourcing in this story shows.” https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21 “ Also, worth noting that this piece is by Nancy Rommelmann. Background: https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480/why-ristretto-roasters-ties-to-victim-blaming-journalist-matter https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480... “
- coldpie 6y ago
  This is probably the most important comment in this whole thread.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- luckylion 6y ago
  That's pretty expected though: if you're on somebody's side, they're usually not treating you as an enemy (not getting on any lists!), won't try to stop you from filming and generally treat you nicely.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  No there isn’t. There is documented video of this happening. It may not happen to every single journalist but that doesn’t mean it is not happening. Antifa is very organized and they specifically look for journalists they do not like.
  - jeremyjh 6y ago
    Please post a link to these videos. I was surprised I couldn't find any in OP.
cwhiz 6y ago
Just some mostly peaceful Molotov cocktails in Portland last night during the mostly peaceful riot. Nothing to see here. During the mayhem a protester was caught on fire but he was mostly not on fire.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  Ignoring the 60-day escalation of protests on Portland is pretty dishonest. Police started using more rubber bullets, harming protestors: they started bringing homemade shields, etc.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
roflc0ptic 6y ago
Irony unintended: I’d really love to see some videos of protestors shouting these things. Didn’t see any with the article. Which isn’t to say it’s all fabrication, but “Reason” doesn’t exactly tend towards a balanced, reasonable perspective on these things.
luckylion 6y ago
Sounds a lot like "embedded journalism", i.e. a nicer term for propaganda. You write what they like, you document what is approved by their media operations, and you're silent on anything they do that makes them look bad.
- rudiv 6y ago
  Pioneered by the US in the modern day AFAIK. I remember the news reports from embedded journalists during the second gulf war.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
This is my about half of my (modest) charitable giving goes to media organizations like Propublica and NPR that try to maintain journalistic ethics. Without them, we are lost.
lawwantsin17 6y ago
Reason? Bunch of propaganda BS.
cochne 6y ago
I am surprised to see this on the front page of Hacker News. The article makes claims which are completely unsubstantiated. There is no audio/video evidence, and there is no other source (that I could find) corroborating the story, or even mentioning these phrases. From another comment here: https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 IPC does not exist either.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Isn't that exactly the train something from regular news would be on HN; you know that upvoted stories are ones people want others to be aware of, it doesn't indicate support nor that anyone is vouching for its verity.
- Fellshard 6y ago
  In a similar way that there are claims that 'Antifa does not exist; it's just an idea.' Lack of formal organization does not imply lack of existence. Self-identification with a group creates grassroots organizations, with different characteristics than a top-down group, but equally existent.
no6 6y ago
Do you believe there is any validity to the idea that increased political polarization is synchronous with an increase in systems that perform better when their data sets are distinctly opposed? Can there be a middle when our analysis systems perform more poorly in those conditions?
baryphonic 6y ago
The mainstream reporting was so bad I just started looking on Twitter. I found both pro- and anti-"protest" accounts with video. Even the pro-protest account videos debunk the narrative that these are peaceful African-American protestors. Whenever one lets the mask slip or shows her hands or hair, it's a young white person. These are night time riots, plain and simple. Surveillance footage released by law enforcement shows that Mike Reinoehl loaded and cocked his weapon lying in wait before he murdered Aaron Danielson. Even the people generally sympathetic to the antiprotest viewpoint are able to publish their narratives using videos from the pro-"protest" side! Even the Kenosha story, the one we cant tell on Facebook, is largely misreported.[1] At this point, these Antifa people (who "don't exist," yet all show up at the same time and place in a uniform and are even aware enough to know who is and isn't allowed to film), the mainstream reporting, the Democrats and Leftist activists seem to want me to believe their words over my lying eyes. I don't anymore. The illusion is shattered. I'm a bit embarrassed that people who profess to be hackers in our industry are actively allowing themselves to be cannibalized by a narrative that is controlled by those with power over information. Ever since I was a kid, wresting access to information from a powerful, ruthless elite is what motivated me to be a programmer and hacker. I couldn't put it into those terms, but it's the same sentiment from my first exposure at age 12. When a billionaire self-described hacker uses his authority as the creator of the largest online social network on earth to censor any evidence that goes against a certain narrative, even to the point of blacklisting, he has ceased to be a hacker, as have any employees who continue to be accomplices in this increasingly absurd information warfare operation. I have no doubt that many of these people believe they are doing the right thing, but they themselves have been cracked and don't even know it or are too fragile to resist. Anytime anyone says "you can't say <X> and you can't look at the evidence we don't endorse," I'm suspicious. Yet that is what we see right now. The largest social networking site in the world will ban posts and even accounts for saying a certain narrative. The largest video platform in the world boosts the "reliable sources" mentioned in the article, and only puts less curated information after it. And the bird application uses trumped up bans, shadowbans and selective enforcement of policies. When did hacker culture sell its soul? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw
- Jonnax 6y ago
rudiv 6y ago
Oh partigiano.
Simulacra 6y ago
"A little firey, mostly peaceful."
collective-intl 6y ago
It's upsetting that this article is flagged. Is there no room for discussion of alternative views? Censorship is not the answer. Funnily enough, it may actually harm the BLM movement. If there is no push back on protesters, they can keep escalating without fearing any consequences. Ultimately, protests will get so big it will be impossible to censor them into a positive narrative. In a couple months, say by Nov. 3rd, the protests could be so out of control as to tip the election. You're making your own bed.
skmurphy 6y ago
Journalism is a key element of our collective civic sensemaking. Kent Bye worked on a model for collaborative journalism he called "The Echo Chamber Project" see https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpisode1_2 https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpi... His goal was that documentary film makers could post all of the material they collected. This would allow viewers to judge what was excluded and to remix it from other points of view.
nphd 6y ago
Wow I kinda thought the article would go into police departments and unions paying social media management firms to send bad-faith takedown notices for YouTube videos that cast them in a bad light, but uhh yeah some protesters are kinda trying to do the same thing with far less resources.
geekraver 6y ago
A magazine called “Reason” publishes a piece which in the second paragraph has a line about some things being “90% bullshit” 🧐

264 points by Bostonian 6y ago

The libertarian non-profit Reason Foundation and it’s associated magazine (linked article) have become much more prominent and linked as a respected news source since the beginning of the year. They do fantastic reporting with a logical (although biased towards freedom and individual rights) and informative style, which has simply disappeared from mainstream sources like the NYT and WaPo. I trust Reason much more than other sources.

mchusma 6y ago
I will +1 it as well. I have read Reason for about 10 years, and I like that they wear they have a clear ideology and have consistently stood up against US Republican and Democratic positions that don't make sense. (e.g. their work on pointless licencing for things is great).
lawwantsin17 6y ago
Bias towards Union busting you mean.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  Busting a union could literally fix the policing problem in this country. Concentrated power is a problem whether it’s a union, a corporation, or a government. It’s not black and white.

ptero 6y ago

This is the environment in which the journalism originally flourished: obtaining and reporting information that is not readily accessible otherwise, often against the wishes of the powers on the ground; and frequently being in danger while obtaining it. I am not glorifying this setup, it is horrible; but the information it provides is very valuable. Unfortunately, nowadays the journalist working on such project will not enjoy the backing at home: gone are the newspapers that would support independent investigations and publish important reports even when they do not line up with the editor's personal preferences. So the journalist reporting an unconventional view has to working with the other side of the political spectrum, which leads to being boxed all the same, just in a different box. I think there is a real need for independent reporting, including (especially) on hot button topics. I even think that many people would gladly pay for such news if we can figure out the right model that ensures independence: it is perfectly OK to publish a partisan report, as long as publishing an opposing view is also acceptable. My 2c.

jkhdigital 6y ago
What’s weird is that the script is flipped here, if this article is to be believed: it is the alleged “underdog” that is attempting to suppress journalistic freedom (through intimidation) to control the news narrative.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  The script was always shaky. If there are lines of mayors, governors, millionaires, corporations, and celebrities lining up to support you, you are not an underdog. There are not similar lines to make sure a given periodical has room and support to safely provide agenda-free reporting.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  Reality isn’t a movie script.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > if this article is to be believed: it is the alleged “underdog” that is attempting to suppress journalistic freedom (through intimidation) to control the news narrative. Consider the source. She has some history of standing against reform movements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Rommelmann##MeNeither https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Rommelmann##MeNeither
humanrebar 6y ago
Could unions and professional associations fill that gap? Why aren't they now? Where are groups like the ACLU? It's worth noting that journalism as a profession has a problem with letting itself become political. Seems like for a journalism association to be effective in these cases, it must insist on the impartiality that most institutions seem to be finding too difficult lately.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  >Could unions and professional associations fill that gap? This and the below >journalism as a profession has a problem with letting itself become political Unions are by definition political, so that wouldn't solve the problem you describe.

sradman 6y ago

Interview with the same journalist: DarkHorse Podcast with Nancy Rommelmann and Bret Weinstein [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30

Fellshard 6y ago
Bret, notably, lives in Portland, and has been making direct observations about these events for a while.

Fellshard 6y ago

This is vital to understand for anyone who thinks they know what's going on at Portland, and - on a broader scale - most current events. There is a massive polarization of who consumes which facts, and this is simply an encoding of that: a drip-feed of exactly what one group of people wish to see.

kombucha111 6y ago
And you seem to be part of that honestly.

mschuster91 6y ago

Having done a fair share of media work on and in German protests myself: the biggest problem is that video evidence can and will be used by cops to go after activists - and that includes material from way outside a riot scene, given that police also look for such tiny details as shoes to (attempt to) identify people. The people at such events have something to lose: careers, families, friendships, years behind bars. In contrast, in countries like Turkey, Belarus or other dictatorships, where the fear is getting killed regardless of protests, the situation is different - people on these protests want their faces to become public so that they cannot be "disappeared".

zo1 6y ago
Go after them for what? Are they doing something illegal?
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Intimidation, faked/blown-up charges, attempts to recruit spies, witness summons... the list is endless.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Cops have plenty of ways of going after people who haven’t committed crimes. https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...
  - unishark 6y ago
    In other words, protestors are harassing, assaulting, and robbing reporters because they might otherwise be unjustly framed for minor crimes.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      Or targeted with a “you should kill yourself” campaign like the FBI tried to do against King.

ppf 6y ago

If you spend any time on the Portland subreddit, you'll see plenty of stories and comments about how the city is just fine, and only Trump fans with an agenda push a "rioting and burning narrative". It's amazing watching hypocritical narrative control in action. These are the same people pushing for police body cameras.

Fellshard 6y ago
And is there not a selection bias at play in a subreddit? People who don't follow the majority opinions of those on a subreddit are routinely hounded down and mass downvoted until they leave, seeing it's futile to try and converse there.
- ppf 6y ago
  Of course there is, except I'm sure a lot of the people on that subreddit are also heavily involved in "protesting". There certainly is a selection bias at play in the general population of Portland, too ;) Edit: I also find it fascinating that the users of the Portland subreddit will shun or ban you if you are not actually in Portland, as I am sure that a lot of those folks strongly favour all immigration in general. As I said, it's a miniature picture of hypocritical narrative control in action.
  - Kednicma 6y ago
    We favor legal immigration. Have your papers in order, be able to speak coherently and talk to people, and be useful to society. We aren't fond of random fascists coming in from across the Washington-Oregon border, let alone driving in from Idaho, just to have street fights and arguments. From our perspective, you're just some hateful outsider who has no experience living in a society. If you want our respect, then you need to be a better person, or at a minimum you need to demonstrate that you're capable of being embedded within a societal context.
    - amadeuspagel 6y ago
      Can't tell whether this is parody of "cityism" - city level parochialism - or the real thing.

themgt 6y ago

This isn't just limited to Portland but is becoming a general aspect of these protests now, e.g. here[1] was DC last night where a Washington Post reporter was hounded out of the protest and then followed by "minders" to prevent his return. Protesters are now blocking media from filming their demonstration, shining lights into a reporter’s face, blocking shots with fans umbrellas and following like “minders” ... “We have our press we know and trust,” this young woman says [1] https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1302411058175307777 https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/130241105817530777...

phkahler 6y ago
Maybe the press needs drones.
- chippy 6y ago
  Some of them do (and are registered with the FAA to fly them). However there are a number of no fly zones, some which have recently been added, in addition to not flying them over peoples houses.

z9e 6y ago

To me this is a mix of the media no longer being trusted, the protestors wanting to control the narrative that is spread from their actions, and them trying to protect themselves from being filmed and then arrested.

tomohawk 6y ago

Happened to a reporter on the Key bridge in DC. https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877 https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877 EDIT: apparently "You're not allowed to Post" also applies

youareostriches 6y ago
The Daily Caller has been managed by Tucker Carlson, who attacks protesters on the air virtually every day. The Daily Caller is known for right-wing troll articles. There’s no chance in hell that this publication would ever portray protesters favorably.
- amadeuspagel 6y ago
  And therefore protestors have a right to prevent them from filming in a public space?
  - youareostriches 6y ago
    Oh sure, the Daily Caller certainly has a right to complain. They just shouldn’t expect anyone to take them seriously about their intentions to report without bias.
    - jes 6y ago
      All reporting is biased, even when people strive to avoid it. To be human is to have biases and preferences, even if you are unaware of them.
- prepend 6y ago
  Do you think the Daily Caller shouldn’t be allowed to film and report?
  - youareostriches 6y ago
    “Allowed” to report? When did we get into the topic of government interference with the press? This is about what private citizen protesters do. But I suppose if you were concerned with government interference in the media you’d be going after the fascist who has been crying “Lügenpresse” for the past four years—who also wants to silence criticism of himself on social media by executive fiat.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

zaroth 6y ago

The mainstream news reporting on Portland (and other regional rioting) got to the point where they were bald-faced lying about peaceful protests standing in front of burning buildings. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that these professional journalists think that their readers can’t understand a nuanced world of gray and need everything reduced to black and white. There can be a concept of “BLM” that is obviously right and important to support, while there is also a well organized radical contingent taking cover within BLM that is wreaking havoc on the streets and will bully or beat up anyone who stands up to them (police or bystander alike). That they call themselves anti-fascists while taking a truly fascist approach to spreading their ideology is a rhetorical pattern I’m seeing a lot lately; accusing your opponent of exactly what you are doing. Portland just “celebrated” their 100th day of rioting. There was video from last night where they set a fellow rioter on fire while trying to throw Molotov cocktails at police. The PR / social media contingent that supports the riots is frankly impressive. The article mentions Google sheets listing approved journalists and ways to help fund them. The level of organization belies a depth to the organization that I think most people assume is more organic and rag-tag than it really is.

mc32 6y ago
Obviously this is to control the narrative. Why would they shoo and have "minders" ala repressive regimes? Is it because "fake news" (that'd be a tough sell coming from the left who question that assertion). Is it because they don't want people to see the underbelly of the movement or at least the bad elements in their movement? What we do know is that if you are an organization looking for change, if you're not very careful, your well intended movement will be usurped by those who have ulterior motives --they will use your movement as "useful idiots" and you may ultimately loose control of your movement to demagogues. There is a difference between people who are honestly looking to make things better and those riding such wave to enhance their own power.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  I was on the edge of the Tea Party protests a decade back. The Deep State crushed that effort via the IRS leaning on the leadership. Social Media has us on the cusp of genuine, organic local leadership of society. But there is a continuous tension to resolve between the Young Turks and the Ancien Regime.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sneak 6y ago

It makes me sad that an institution I used to like and respect, reason.com, seems more and more often to subscribe to the standard (and, taken uncritically, untrue) set pieces of the standard American culture war. This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous. The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertarian audience have shifted a lot more authoritarian in recent years, so it’s a logical evolution. It’s just super disappointing to see them regurgitating the off-the-shelf battle lines instead of digging for real.

youareostriches 6y ago
> This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous. The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertarian audience have shifted a lot more authoritarian in recent years, so it’s a logical evolution. It’s just super disappointing to see them regurgitating the off-the-shelf battle lines instead of digging for real. You’d think it ironic that a publication titled “Reason” would succumb to ideology, but the truth is that libertarianism (which, in the US, is seen as unequivocally right-wing) has always been used as a trojan horse for ideology. So they’ll attack a movement they perceive as being driven by an ideology (pro-social-welfare, pro-economic equality) which they oppose.
- amadeuspagel 6y ago
  Publications are generally not titled x-ism, where x is the ideology they represent. Libertarianism is not "a trojan horse for ideology" it is an ideology.
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    >Libertarianism is not "a trojan horse for ideology" it is an ideology. It can be both, though for many proponents it's natural to blindly reject the notion of one's identity being polluted by people who are ostensibly on "your side". It's not something that's only happening in libertarianism, but I strongly agree that it is abused in the way the parent describes.

14 6y ago

I was just looking at the zoom of the Nikon p1000 and from over 3 miles away you can easily zoom in and read a piece of paper. Even if these people don’t want someone recording them on the ground, a camera could literally be so far away they would not even see it recording them. It just seems ignorant. I pretty much assume I am being recorded at all times and act as such. Too many hidden cameras, security cameras and cameras so good I would not even see them in action. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA

Dahoon 6y ago

>But it's easy to understand why protesters use them: to shape the narrative the country sees about the protests. That is a very biased view. The reality is that photo and film is used to target people by the government even if you are at a peaceful protest (I'm not talking about rioters). Hence the hyperbolic "filming equals death" thing. Getting filmed or having your picture taken at a protest in the States is on the brink of becoming dangerous. The US checks 11 out of the 13 signs of fascism. After next election, likely 12 or all 13.

cwhiz 6y ago
That’s some absurd hyperbole. Death? These people are scared of going to jail. They know they are breaking the law and they know if they get caught they could go to jail.
- someguydave 6y ago
  They only go to jail if they are judged to have committed crimes in court. I wonder if antifa gives similar due process rights to the people it accuses and attacks?
  - rudiv 6y ago
    Are you under the impression that due process (in terms of the US legal doctrine) is applicable to anyone but US state and federal governments?
    - someguydave 6y ago
      are you saying court doesn’t exist?
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "They only go to jail if they are judged to have committed crimes in court." Not true. Plenty of people in jail have not been found guilty of anything and are there waiting their day in court. That could go on for months or even years. That's not to mention people dying in police custody, and the fact that some people's lives and reputation could be ruined by the mere accusation of a crime.

mopsi 6y ago

Comparing scenes from Minsk with scenes from major US cities has been very interesting this year...

sudonim 6y ago

There’s reason to be skeptical. From a local Portland journalist covering the protests: https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 “ Not that I want to legitimize this @reason piece, but I have filmed copious moments of ppl throwing things at police/vandalizing bldgs/etc & have never been told I’m not allowed to film. I have never heard of the so-called “IPC.” The lack of sourcing in this story shows.” https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21 “ Also, worth noting that this piece is by Nancy Rommelmann. Background: https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480/why-ristretto-roasters-ties-to-victim-blaming-journalist-matter https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480... “

coldpie 6y ago
This is probably the most important comment in this whole thread.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
luckylion 6y ago
That's pretty expected though: if you're on somebody's side, they're usually not treating you as an enemy (not getting on any lists!), won't try to stop you from filming and generally treat you nicely.
macinjosh 6y ago
No there isn’t. There is documented video of this happening. It may not happen to every single journalist but that doesn’t mean it is not happening. Antifa is very organized and they specifically look for journalists they do not like.
- jeremyjh 6y ago
  Please post a link to these videos. I was surprised I couldn't find any in OP.

cwhiz 6y ago

Just some mostly peaceful Molotov cocktails in Portland last night during the mostly peaceful riot. Nothing to see here. During the mayhem a protester was caught on fire but he was mostly not on fire.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Ignoring the 60-day escalation of protests on Portland is pretty dishonest. Police started using more rubber bullets, harming protestors: they started bringing homemade shields, etc.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

roflc0ptic 6y ago

Irony unintended: I’d really love to see some videos of protestors shouting these things. Didn’t see any with the article. Which isn’t to say it’s all fabrication, but “Reason” doesn’t exactly tend towards a balanced, reasonable perspective on these things.

luckylion 6y ago

Sounds a lot like "embedded journalism", i.e. a nicer term for propaganda. You write what they like, you document what is approved by their media operations, and you're silent on anything they do that makes them look bad.

rudiv 6y ago
Pioneered by the US in the modern day AFAIK. I remember the news reports from embedded journalists during the second gulf war.

Hnrobert42 6y ago

This is my about half of my (modest) charitable giving goes to media organizations like Propublica and NPR that try to maintain journalistic ethics. Without them, we are lost.

lawwantsin17 6y ago

Reason? Bunch of propaganda BS.

cochne 6y ago

I am surprised to see this on the front page of Hacker News. The article makes claims which are completely unsubstantiated. There is no audio/video evidence, and there is no other source (that I could find) corroborating the story, or even mentioning these phrases. From another comment here: https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 IPC does not exist either.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
Isn't that exactly the train something from regular news would be on HN; you know that upvoted stories are ones people want others to be aware of, it doesn't indicate support nor that anyone is vouching for its verity.
Fellshard 6y ago
In a similar way that there are claims that 'Antifa does not exist; it's just an idea.' Lack of formal organization does not imply lack of existence. Self-identification with a group creates grassroots organizations, with different characteristics than a top-down group, but equally existent.

no6 6y ago

Do you believe there is any validity to the idea that increased political polarization is synchronous with an increase in systems that perform better when their data sets are distinctly opposed? Can there be a middle when our analysis systems perform more poorly in those conditions?

baryphonic 6y ago

The mainstream reporting was so bad I just started looking on Twitter. I found both pro- and anti-"protest" accounts with video. Even the pro-protest account videos debunk the narrative that these are peaceful African-American protestors. Whenever one lets the mask slip or shows her hands or hair, it's a young white person. These are night time riots, plain and simple. Surveillance footage released by law enforcement shows that Mike Reinoehl loaded and cocked his weapon lying in wait before he murdered Aaron Danielson. Even the people generally sympathetic to the antiprotest viewpoint are able to publish their narratives using videos from the pro-"protest" side! Even the Kenosha story, the one we cant tell on Facebook, is largely misreported.[1] At this point, these Antifa people (who "don't exist," yet all show up at the same time and place in a uniform and are even aware enough to know who is and isn't allowed to film), the mainstream reporting, the Democrats and Leftist activists seem to want me to believe their words over my lying eyes. I don't anymore. The illusion is shattered. I'm a bit embarrassed that people who profess to be hackers in our industry are actively allowing themselves to be cannibalized by a narrative that is controlled by those with power over information. Ever since I was a kid, wresting access to information from a powerful, ruthless elite is what motivated me to be a programmer and hacker. I couldn't put it into those terms, but it's the same sentiment from my first exposure at age 12. When a billionaire self-described hacker uses his authority as the creator of the largest online social network on earth to censor any evidence that goes against a certain narrative, even to the point of blacklisting, he has ceased to be a hacker, as have any employees who continue to be accomplices in this increasingly absurd information warfare operation. I have no doubt that many of these people believe they are doing the right thing, but they themselves have been cracked and don't even know it or are too fragile to resist. Anytime anyone says "you can't say <X> and you can't look at the evidence we don't endorse," I'm suspicious. Yet that is what we see right now. The largest social networking site in the world will ban posts and even accounts for saying a certain narrative. The largest video platform in the world boosts the "reliable sources" mentioned in the article, and only puts less curated information after it. And the bird application uses trumped up bans, shadowbans and selective enforcement of policies. When did hacker culture sell its soul? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw

Jonnax 6y ago

rudiv 6y ago

Oh partigiano.

Simulacra 6y ago

"A little firey, mostly peaceful."

collective-intl 6y ago

It's upsetting that this article is flagged. Is there no room for discussion of alternative views? Censorship is not the answer. Funnily enough, it may actually harm the BLM movement. If there is no push back on protesters, they can keep escalating without fearing any consequences. Ultimately, protests will get so big it will be impossible to censor them into a positive narrative. In a couple months, say by Nov. 3rd, the protests could be so out of control as to tip the election. You're making your own bed.

skmurphy 6y ago

Journalism is a key element of our collective civic sensemaking. Kent Bye worked on a model for collaborative journalism he called "The Echo Chamber Project" see https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpisode1_2 https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpi... His goal was that documentary film makers could post all of the material they collected. This would allow viewers to judge what was excluded and to remix it from other points of view.

nphd 6y ago

Wow I kinda thought the article would go into police departments and unions paying social media management firms to send bad-faith takedown notices for YouTube videos that cast them in a bad light, but uhh yeah some protesters are kinda trying to do the same thing with far less resources.

geekraver 6y ago

A magazine called “Reason” publishes a piece which in the second paragraph has a line about some things being “90% bullshit” 🧐