49 ms·

India authorises sale of electric vehicles without batteries

128 points by baybal2 6y ago

Gabrielfair 6y ago
Can someone help me understand how this will help the adoption when they still have to buy the expensive batteries
- akhilramolla 6y ago
  Will force battery producers closer to customer. reduce gate keepers and strengthen supply chains. and yes reduces the cost and hence companies can offer batteries for rent
  - adrianmonk 6y ago
    Would renting batteries be significantly cheaper than rolling battery cost into the pricing of the car? Isn't it a monthly payment either way?
    - taneq 6y ago
      It makes the comparison with an ICE vehicle much more direct. Instead of "cheap car plus expensive fuel" vs. "expensive car plus cheap electricity", it's "car plus fuel" vs. "car plus battery rental". Also, just thinking about it now, it helps mitigate risk due to fluctuating demand because the cost to own and operate the vehicle scales down more at light usage.
      - addicted44 6y ago
        India also has extremely high interest rates. So there is a benefit in converting fixed upfront capital costs into rolling operational costs. In most developed countries consumers can convert those upfront costs easily and cheaply through loans. In a country like India, loans are much more expensive. Think of it like using cloud services instead of buying an upfront machine.
        eru 6y ago
        > India also has extremely high interest rates. See https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percent-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percen... for real (ie inflation adjusted) interest rates in India. They seem to be above 5% per year. That's high compared to the rest of the world. (Though I wouldn't say extremely high.)
        spockz 6y ago
        Loans for cars are between 5.1% and 7.7% here in the Netherlands.[0] Loans for cars tend to be the cheapest loans after mortgage loans. So 6.9% (Number for 2020) doesn’t appear crazy high to me. [0]: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolening/index.html https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolenin...
        eru 6y ago
        That's consumer lending. I don't know what benchmark tradingeconomics uses for the numbers I linked to. It's probably some kind of institutional lending, which tends to be much lower. Trading Economic say they took the data from the World Bank. See https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=IN-NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=I... for a comparison of real interest rates between the Netherland and India accordind to the World Bank. The Word Bank gives a bit of background: > Statistical Concept and Methodology: Many interest rates coexist in an economy, reflecting competitive conditions, the terms governing loans and deposits, and differences in the position and status of creditors and debtors. In some economies interest rates are set by regulation or administrative fiat. In economies with imperfect markets, or where reported nominal rates are not indicative of effective rates, it may be difficult to obtain data on interest rates that reflect actual market transactions. Deposit and lending rates are collected by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as representative interest rates offered by banks to resident customers. The terms and conditions attached to these rates differ by country, however, limiting their comparability. Real interest rates are calculated by adjusting nominal rates by an estimate of the inflation rate in the economy. A negative real interest rate indicates a loss in the purchasing power of the principal. The real interest rates are calculated as (i - P) / (1 + P), where i is the nominal lending interest rate and P is the inflation rate (as measured by the GDP deflator). In 2009 the IMF began publishing a new presentation of monetary statistics for countries that report data in accordance with its Monetary Financial Statistical Manual 2000. The presentation for countries that report data in accordance with its International Financial Statistics (IFS) remains the same.
    - kumarvvr 6y ago
      Not significantly cheaper, in fact renting would always include the cost of finance, that is borne by the battery OEM. However, renting allows for lower income earning sections of the society better access to EVs
- smabie 6y ago
  Maybe you could rent them? I dunno. Probably it won't help.
- catmanjan 6y ago
  Aftermarket/second hand batteries maybe
  - EE84M3i 6y ago
    Don't car batteries have the printer cartridge problem where they have chips in them and must be sourced first party?
    - addicted44 6y ago
      India's is an extremely price conscious market. Companies that raise prices by doing that will be beaten by companies that don't very quickly. Alternatively, combined with the much weaker law enforcement, "illegal" (I'm not sure about the legality of cracking copy protections here) copies will flourish if it's close to being feasible, which it could be.
- elihu 6y ago
  Maybe it makes it easier to buy and have cars shipped from outside the country, since batteries are hazardous materials? Or maybe locally-made batteries are cheaper? The opposite might be the case as well, maybe the cars are easy to manufacture locally but they import the batteries from China or wherever? Or maybe just decoupling the batteries from the car enables more consumer choice. I wish the article had some hint about the actual motivation for this policy, but I could imagine several scenarios where it could be beneficial.
- murrayb 6y ago
  Not sure how Govt duty works in India but if it is anything like in Australia removing the battery would make the vehicle cheaper and thus reduce the amount of duty paid.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    There is no road tax for EVs in India. But batteries would attract 18% tax during purchase. However, the govt. may give a rebate on that too.
- mattnewton 6y ago
  It will allow companies to compete above their scale if they don’t own huge battery operations, and probably force standard battery interfaces / easy customer install. That could make swapping batteries practical depending on the design.
  - thewhitetulip 6y ago
    Considering that the ruling party is BJP (equivalent to US Republicans), this move will directly help Ambani & Adani. There won't be any tight competition or open interface, it'll be a monopoly by the two business groups who support him the most.
    - kumarvvr 6y ago
      This statement is ignorant at best. What looks like a sound business decision, one which opens up the market for more competition, you are twisting it as a politically motivated corrupt move. By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. I really want to understand why there will not be any competition or open interface. The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot. Perhaps lead way to investments from overseas. Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all.
      - thewhitetulip 6y ago
        You are either not Indian or you are ignoring everything to suit your narrative. The current government has put on a lot of regulation to "protect home grown e-tailers" when Ambani was planning to launch an Amazon competitor. Flipkart before they sold to Walmart had begged for years to give protection, but none was given, but when JioMart was to be launched, suddenly regulation was changed to benefit local e tailers, major benefactor was JioMart. > Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all. Hahahahahahahaha Due to stuoid red tape, Tesla took Gigafactory plans to China. 70% thungs were need to be locally sourced for starting Tesla factory in India and obviously we don't have the ecosystem. > By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. Were you living under a rock when Telecom rules were being constantly flouted by Jio? All rules were specifically created to help Jio. The AGR case crippled telecos except Jio. Jio also has AGR but SC put the decision onto the govt for collecting or not. But others are forced to pay regardless if they go under. > The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Hahahaha just like "anyone can start a startup in India. They can take Amazon AWS servers and domain from Godaddy and there won't be an issue. Just like "anyone can apply for a business license and start a manufacturing plant" You blisfully and maliciously ignore that the entire govt machinery has been working overtime to favour Ambani Adani. > Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot Yeah and there can be many businesses which you can set up. Sure, all you ought to do is as for a license. Sure, govt won't twist rules to favour JioBattery and JioElectricCar
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  It decouples innovations between car and battery technology. Car manufacturers will only innovate batteries to the extent that fits their pricing and performance models. With the decoupling, the market for batteries will expand and different types of batteries for different performance / technologies will come into picture. But by making it legal to sell cars without batteries, it obliges car manufacturers to come up with data, certifications, technology transfer systems, etc to legally allow battery manufacturers to support their cars. This reduces a lot of paperwork and other red tape. For example, insurance. If you buy a car and change it's battery, your insurance provider may object for coverage or charge you extra for after market modifications. So, while the user has to buy the battery, he will have more choice. Also, new battery technology and new battery companies can grow with more ease. There are some downsides to this approach. Many vehicle dynamics and safety tests are conducted for the vehicle as a whole. So it has to be seen how those issues are addressed. However, since the location of the battery, in a given vehicle is fixed, I think coming up with a framework of certifications or standardized parameters for battery physicals should be easy. I think this law is primarily aimed at taxis and auto-rickshaws in many urban areas. Most of India's middle class still drives bikes and scooters. However, there are many taxis and autos. And these are usually very polluting. Shifting to an EV is usually more cost effective for the driver. The cost per kilometer of travel is lesser in EVs.
- labby5 6y ago
  In India, the most common vehicles are not cars, but mopeds/scooters. Unlike cars it is perfectly feasible to have battery swapping as your main/only form of refueling, and have the customers subscribe to your battery swap infrastructure instead of buying the battery. Its far more convenient for customers since you never need to wait to charge your vehicle, and you don't need to worry about having charging stations near your work or at home. This is precisely what gogoro, the most popular e-scooter company in Taiwan does. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/
- pengaru 6y ago
  I see it as helping adoption by alleviating battery replacement anxiety. If the vehicle doesn't even come with a battery and you're able to acquire a standard battery from any number of competing vendors, you're a whole lot less afraid of buying an EV and not being able to replace its battery in five years because it's been obsoleted by the OEM.
taneq 6y ago
From https://www.indiatoday.in/auto/latest-auto-news/story/morth-allows-the-sale-of-electric-vehicles-without-batteries-everything-you-need-to-know-1710727-2020-08-13 https://www.indiatoday.in/auto/latest-auto-news/story/morth-... > The amendment will allow OEMs to sell batteries separately or with subscription models, and will also encourage private players to join in as well, boosting the grass-roots of the electric ecosystem. So it's about allowing competition in battery providers and allowing battery leasing. This is a good move because not only does it open up the industry and hopefully drive overall prices down, but it decouples the prices of vehicle and "fuel", making it easier to compare directly with petrol-powered vehicles. Also, by incentivizing vehicle designs with removable (and thus swappable) batteries, it makes taxis and other high demand use cases more practical without needing widespread fast charging infrastructure.
- paranoidrobot 6y ago
  While allowing competition for batteries is a good idea, I fear that it'll go the way of printer ink cartridges or the Keurig. Sure, technically you can get a battery from whomever you like for your car so long as it's compatible - but the Manufacturer has put DRM on the battery interface. All in the name of safety, you see - they don't want to see their cars catching fire on national news because of some shoddy batteries. However what it'll mean is that unless the battery maker is willing to fork out a large chunk of cash per battery to the car maker, the car maker won't certify it as compatible.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    > While allowing competition for batteries is a good idea, I fear that it'll go the way of printer ink cartridges or the Keurig. That came to mind also, though "OEMs to sell batteries separately or with subscription models" might just of covered that aspect. Batteries are already standard cell sizes, it's the packaging of those cells that makes things interesting. Now will they end up standardising that aspect across cars is the crux here. Certainly be interesting how this all pans out.
  - rishav_sharan 6y ago
    I think the point of this rule is that the manufacturer can't put a DRM on the car. India is trying to trying to set up electric cars like it has dealt on mobile devices - the sim is separately sold from the device and any sim from any company can be paired with any mobile phone.
atburrow 6y ago
Why was there a regulation in place preventing this in the first place? I don’t get it.
- ponker 6y ago
  I expect that in many places it’s not legal to sell a new car that doesn’t drive out of the “box.”
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  How does it pass safety regulations without an integral part of the vehicle? How do they publish performance data if it can't move on itself? Not that those are insurmountable obstacles, but a law that says "You can't claim your vehicle does 200 miles on a charge if it doesn't include a battery" or "You can't claim your vehicle is safe in a frontal crash because the battery absorbs some of the energy except you're not including the battery" don't seem unreasonable.
  - gruez 6y ago
    Can't you just design/test it with OEM batteries, but allow the end user to buy it without the OEM batteries?
    - umeshunni 6y ago
      That's pretty much what this law allows now
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  There is no specific regulation, other than selling incomplete products as completed products. For example, its perfectly legal to advertise a car as saying its a car without engine. You just cannot advertise it in such a way that the viewer thinks he can buy the car and just enjoy it.
  - gruez 6y ago
    How's this any different than the situation with PC parts? You have CPU and GPU manufacturers advertising their products with images of games being played, yet you need to buy half a dozen other parts before you can start gaming.
dn3500 6y ago
I got a chuckle out of the photo they used to illustrate the story.
aetherspawn 6y ago
This is actually a really great direction. Imagine - a software and hardware standard developed for batteries that allows generic installation/communication between the vehicle and the battery pack. And the realization that EV's may be multi-decade investments (and need to be high quality to last) if the batteries are replaced each decade. Electric motors don't wear down with kms like petrol motors do - how often have you seen luxury cars wrecked where the interiors lasted a lot longer than the driveline (pretty often i.e. BMW Audi)? Why shouldn't people be able to buy high quality interiors and put new batteries in them.
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
This is nice, if the battery spec is standardised and 3rd party battery makers can directly supply to the end users; not just to the OEMs. Barriers to entry for power delivery systems should be brought down as well incl. Smart Power Grids so that startups can enter the space in order to improve power delivery to the end users, at the end of the day economics of owning an EV in India should be favourable for the consumer to invest in it.
867-5309 6y ago
"excluding" may have been more appropriate than "without"
xenospn 6y ago
How long before we have cars exploding because someone, somewhere, tried cutting corners and jerry-rigged a DIY battery in their car to save some money?
CarbyAu 6y ago
If they can do this for one highly complex, many moving parts, integrated product.... do it for phones. And standardise recycling while you're at it.
afrojack123 6y ago
Now I can drive my Tesla around with a hydrogen fuel and fuel cells.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Why would you do that though?
  - newen 6y ago
    Why not?
    - speedgoose 6y ago
      Hydrogen is expensive and not convenient for cars.
      - afrojack123 6y ago
        Batteries are ~$3/KWH. The natural gas that hydrogen comes from is only $.50/KWH.
        speedgoose 6y ago
        What about the hydrogen charging station?
        afrojack123 6y ago
        Modify existing gas stations to supply hydrogen instead.
        speedgoose 6y ago
        I was thinking about the cost of hydrogen fueling stations compared to electric fast chargers.
hathym 6y ago
Off topic, but why not a battery standard for all cars that will make charging almost instant by switching them just like we do with toys?
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Swapping a battery is simply a lot more complex than charging it. Renault tried it with the Fluence in Israel, it stopped. The Zoé has been designed to have easy battery swaps but it's not used. Tesla did some demos in the past but they didn't explore more. However Nio still believes in this solution, with proprietary batteries, so if they are very successful in China some others may try again.
  - newyankee 6y ago
    Actually in Indian market the primary target audience i believe is 2 and 3 wheelers, which have smaller batteries and shorter ranges. China has already converted most of such fleet to electric. Due to lack of capability in producing batteries locally in India as well as geopolitical issues hampering China imports and dependency, this is one policy designed to make adoption cheaper. Indian ICE manufacturers never had the vision to create an EV industry at home, they are very reactive in nature. Only Tata, Mahindra have some capability and most of the 2 wheeler manufacturers were importing almost all the important components from China.
alexose 6y ago
We need an open source, modular, convenient swappable battery + BMS design. Something that end users can pick up and drop in their vehicle of choice. Something like the Gogoro battery, but with flexibility for larger vehicles.
pkphilip 6y ago
India currently has a law forcing the scrapping of all petrol and diesel vehicles after 15 years of manufacture. https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/car-news/cars-older-than-10-years-to-be-scrapped-govts-new-scrappage-policy-how-it-will-affect-you/1294836/ https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/car-news/cars-older-th... This is unnecessary as it will force perfectly usable vehicles to be scrapped and it would come at a huge cost to the environment. Ideally it would have been good to allow this change for internal combustion engines as well so as to allow ICE cars to swap out their engines for more fuel efficient engines.
- captn3m0 6y ago
  15 year old cars in India are tinboxes, with very little margin for safety. No airbags for eg. Maybe once we actually start manufacturing cars that are safe, we can turn this off after a decade.
  - pkphilip 6y ago
    You can still buy new cars off the lot right now without airbags or any safety features. And of course, trucks and commercial vehicles rarely come with these safety features in any case. Also, this scrapping law applies even for vehicles with all safety features.. including from companies such as Mercedes, BMW, VW etc. I would think that it makes perfect sense to scrap vehicles - no matter how young/old, if it seriously fails an inspection or if the pollution levels from the vehicle is too bad - and there are existing "fitness" tests for this, and so why scrap vehicles which are well maintained?
    - knolax 6y ago
      I feel like in practice people will just find ways to skirt around the law. Who's gonna scrap a perfectly good BMW.
      - addicted 6y ago
        If it’s being used in Indian roads it’s not gonna be a perfectly good BNW in 15 years. Cars plummet in value in 5 years in India. The usage scenarios are nothing like in the US.
known 6y ago
Sounds rational since existing car owners prefer to covert to EVs https://www.bharatmobi.com/faqs/ https://www.bharatmobi.com/faqs/

128 points by baybal2 6y ago

Gabrielfair 6y ago

Can someone help me understand how this will help the adoption when they still have to buy the expensive batteries

akhilramolla 6y ago
Will force battery producers closer to customer. reduce gate keepers and strengthen supply chains. and yes reduces the cost and hence companies can offer batteries for rent
- adrianmonk 6y ago
  Would renting batteries be significantly cheaper than rolling battery cost into the pricing of the car? Isn't it a monthly payment either way?
  - taneq 6y ago
    It makes the comparison with an ICE vehicle much more direct. Instead of "cheap car plus expensive fuel" vs. "expensive car plus cheap electricity", it's "car plus fuel" vs. "car plus battery rental". Also, just thinking about it now, it helps mitigate risk due to fluctuating demand because the cost to own and operate the vehicle scales down more at light usage.
    - addicted44 6y ago
      India also has extremely high interest rates. So there is a benefit in converting fixed upfront capital costs into rolling operational costs. In most developed countries consumers can convert those upfront costs easily and cheaply through loans. In a country like India, loans are much more expensive. Think of it like using cloud services instead of buying an upfront machine.
      - eru 6y ago
        > India also has extremely high interest rates. See https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percent-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percen... for real (ie inflation adjusted) interest rates in India. They seem to be above 5% per year. That's high compared to the rest of the world. (Though I wouldn't say extremely high.)
        spockz 6y ago
        Loans for cars are between 5.1% and 7.7% here in the Netherlands.[0] Loans for cars tend to be the cheapest loans after mortgage loans. So 6.9% (Number for 2020) doesn’t appear crazy high to me. [0]: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolening/index.html https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolenin...
        eru 6y ago
        That's consumer lending. I don't know what benchmark tradingeconomics uses for the numbers I linked to. It's probably some kind of institutional lending, which tends to be much lower. Trading Economic say they took the data from the World Bank. See https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=IN-NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=I... for a comparison of real interest rates between the Netherland and India accordind to the World Bank. The Word Bank gives a bit of background: > Statistical Concept and Methodology: Many interest rates coexist in an economy, reflecting competitive conditions, the terms governing loans and deposits, and differences in the position and status of creditors and debtors. In some economies interest rates are set by regulation or administrative fiat. In economies with imperfect markets, or where reported nominal rates are not indicative of effective rates, it may be difficult to obtain data on interest rates that reflect actual market transactions. Deposit and lending rates are collected by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as representative interest rates offered by banks to resident customers. The terms and conditions attached to these rates differ by country, however, limiting their comparability. Real interest rates are calculated by adjusting nominal rates by an estimate of the inflation rate in the economy. A negative real interest rate indicates a loss in the purchasing power of the principal. The real interest rates are calculated as (i - P) / (1 + P), where i is the nominal lending interest rate and P is the inflation rate (as measured by the GDP deflator). In 2009 the IMF began publishing a new presentation of monetary statistics for countries that report data in accordance with its Monetary Financial Statistical Manual 2000. The presentation for countries that report data in accordance with its International Financial Statistics (IFS) remains the same.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    Not significantly cheaper, in fact renting would always include the cost of finance, that is borne by the battery OEM. However, renting allows for lower income earning sections of the society better access to EVs
smabie 6y ago
Maybe you could rent them? I dunno. Probably it won't help.
catmanjan 6y ago
Aftermarket/second hand batteries maybe
- EE84M3i 6y ago
  Don't car batteries have the printer cartridge problem where they have chips in them and must be sourced first party?
  - addicted44 6y ago
    India's is an extremely price conscious market. Companies that raise prices by doing that will be beaten by companies that don't very quickly. Alternatively, combined with the much weaker law enforcement, "illegal" (I'm not sure about the legality of cracking copy protections here) copies will flourish if it's close to being feasible, which it could be.
elihu 6y ago
Maybe it makes it easier to buy and have cars shipped from outside the country, since batteries are hazardous materials? Or maybe locally-made batteries are cheaper? The opposite might be the case as well, maybe the cars are easy to manufacture locally but they import the batteries from China or wherever? Or maybe just decoupling the batteries from the car enables more consumer choice. I wish the article had some hint about the actual motivation for this policy, but I could imagine several scenarios where it could be beneficial.
murrayb 6y ago
Not sure how Govt duty works in India but if it is anything like in Australia removing the battery would make the vehicle cheaper and thus reduce the amount of duty paid.
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  There is no road tax for EVs in India. But batteries would attract 18% tax during purchase. However, the govt. may give a rebate on that too.
mattnewton 6y ago
It will allow companies to compete above their scale if they don’t own huge battery operations, and probably force standard battery interfaces / easy customer install. That could make swapping batteries practical depending on the design.
- thewhitetulip 6y ago
  Considering that the ruling party is BJP (equivalent to US Republicans), this move will directly help Ambani & Adani. There won't be any tight competition or open interface, it'll be a monopoly by the two business groups who support him the most.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    This statement is ignorant at best. What looks like a sound business decision, one which opens up the market for more competition, you are twisting it as a politically motivated corrupt move. By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. I really want to understand why there will not be any competition or open interface. The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot. Perhaps lead way to investments from overseas. Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all.
    - thewhitetulip 6y ago
      You are either not Indian or you are ignoring everything to suit your narrative. The current government has put on a lot of regulation to "protect home grown e-tailers" when Ambani was planning to launch an Amazon competitor. Flipkart before they sold to Walmart had begged for years to give protection, but none was given, but when JioMart was to be launched, suddenly regulation was changed to benefit local e tailers, major benefactor was JioMart. > Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all. Hahahahahahahaha Due to stuoid red tape, Tesla took Gigafactory plans to China. 70% thungs were need to be locally sourced for starting Tesla factory in India and obviously we don't have the ecosystem. > By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. Were you living under a rock when Telecom rules were being constantly flouted by Jio? All rules were specifically created to help Jio. The AGR case crippled telecos except Jio. Jio also has AGR but SC put the decision onto the govt for collecting or not. But others are forced to pay regardless if they go under. > The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Hahahaha just like "anyone can start a startup in India. They can take Amazon AWS servers and domain from Godaddy and there won't be an issue. Just like "anyone can apply for a business license and start a manufacturing plant" You blisfully and maliciously ignore that the entire govt machinery has been working overtime to favour Ambani Adani. > Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot Yeah and there can be many businesses which you can set up. Sure, all you ought to do is as for a license. Sure, govt won't twist rules to favour JioBattery and JioElectricCar
kumarvvr 6y ago
It decouples innovations between car and battery technology. Car manufacturers will only innovate batteries to the extent that fits their pricing and performance models. With the decoupling, the market for batteries will expand and different types of batteries for different performance / technologies will come into picture. But by making it legal to sell cars without batteries, it obliges car manufacturers to come up with data, certifications, technology transfer systems, etc to legally allow battery manufacturers to support their cars. This reduces a lot of paperwork and other red tape. For example, insurance. If you buy a car and change it's battery, your insurance provider may object for coverage or charge you extra for after market modifications. So, while the user has to buy the battery, he will have more choice. Also, new battery technology and new battery companies can grow with more ease. There are some downsides to this approach. Many vehicle dynamics and safety tests are conducted for the vehicle as a whole. So it has to be seen how those issues are addressed. However, since the location of the battery, in a given vehicle is fixed, I think coming up with a framework of certifications or standardized parameters for battery physicals should be easy. I think this law is primarily aimed at taxis and auto-rickshaws in many urban areas. Most of India's middle class still drives bikes and scooters. However, there are many taxis and autos. And these are usually very polluting. Shifting to an EV is usually more cost effective for the driver. The cost per kilometer of travel is lesser in EVs.
labby5 6y ago
In India, the most common vehicles are not cars, but mopeds/scooters. Unlike cars it is perfectly feasible to have battery swapping as your main/only form of refueling, and have the customers subscribe to your battery swap infrastructure instead of buying the battery. Its far more convenient for customers since you never need to wait to charge your vehicle, and you don't need to worry about having charging stations near your work or at home. This is precisely what gogoro, the most popular e-scooter company in Taiwan does. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/
pengaru 6y ago
I see it as helping adoption by alleviating battery replacement anxiety. If the vehicle doesn't even come with a battery and you're able to acquire a standard battery from any number of competing vendors, you're a whole lot less afraid of buying an EV and not being able to replace its battery in five years because it's been obsoleted by the OEM.

taneq 6y ago

From https://www.indiatoday.in/auto/latest-auto-news/story/morth-allows-the-sale-of-electric-vehicles-without-batteries-everything-you-need-to-know-1710727-2020-08-13 https://www.indiatoday.in/auto/latest-auto-news/story/morth-... > The amendment will allow OEMs to sell batteries separately or with subscription models, and will also encourage private players to join in as well, boosting the grass-roots of the electric ecosystem. So it's about allowing competition in battery providers and allowing battery leasing. This is a good move because not only does it open up the industry and hopefully drive overall prices down, but it decouples the prices of vehicle and "fuel", making it easier to compare directly with petrol-powered vehicles. Also, by incentivizing vehicle designs with removable (and thus swappable) batteries, it makes taxis and other high demand use cases more practical without needing widespread fast charging infrastructure.

paranoidrobot 6y ago
While allowing competition for batteries is a good idea, I fear that it'll go the way of printer ink cartridges or the Keurig. Sure, technically you can get a battery from whomever you like for your car so long as it's compatible - but the Manufacturer has put DRM on the battery interface. All in the name of safety, you see - they don't want to see their cars catching fire on national news because of some shoddy batteries. However what it'll mean is that unless the battery maker is willing to fork out a large chunk of cash per battery to the car maker, the car maker won't certify it as compatible.
- Zenst 6y ago
  > While allowing competition for batteries is a good idea, I fear that it'll go the way of printer ink cartridges or the Keurig. That came to mind also, though "OEMs to sell batteries separately or with subscription models" might just of covered that aspect. Batteries are already standard cell sizes, it's the packaging of those cells that makes things interesting. Now will they end up standardising that aspect across cars is the crux here. Certainly be interesting how this all pans out.
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  I think the point of this rule is that the manufacturer can't put a DRM on the car. India is trying to trying to set up electric cars like it has dealt on mobile devices - the sim is separately sold from the device and any sim from any company can be paired with any mobile phone.

atburrow 6y ago

Why was there a regulation in place preventing this in the first place? I don’t get it.

ponker 6y ago
I expect that in many places it’s not legal to sell a new car that doesn’t drive out of the “box.”
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
How does it pass safety regulations without an integral part of the vehicle? How do they publish performance data if it can't move on itself? Not that those are insurmountable obstacles, but a law that says "You can't claim your vehicle does 200 miles on a charge if it doesn't include a battery" or "You can't claim your vehicle is safe in a frontal crash because the battery absorbs some of the energy except you're not including the battery" don't seem unreasonable.
- gruez 6y ago
  Can't you just design/test it with OEM batteries, but allow the end user to buy it without the OEM batteries?
  - umeshunni 6y ago
    That's pretty much what this law allows now
kumarvvr 6y ago
There is no specific regulation, other than selling incomplete products as completed products. For example, its perfectly legal to advertise a car as saying its a car without engine. You just cannot advertise it in such a way that the viewer thinks he can buy the car and just enjoy it.
- gruez 6y ago
  How's this any different than the situation with PC parts? You have CPU and GPU manufacturers advertising their products with images of games being played, yet you need to buy half a dozen other parts before you can start gaming.

dn3500 6y ago

I got a chuckle out of the photo they used to illustrate the story.

aetherspawn 6y ago

This is actually a really great direction. Imagine - a software and hardware standard developed for batteries that allows generic installation/communication between the vehicle and the battery pack. And the realization that EV's may be multi-decade investments (and need to be high quality to last) if the batteries are replaced each decade. Electric motors don't wear down with kms like petrol motors do - how often have you seen luxury cars wrecked where the interiors lasted a lot longer than the driveline (pretty often i.e. BMW Audi)? Why shouldn't people be able to buy high quality interiors and put new batteries in them.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

This is nice, if the battery spec is standardised and 3rd party battery makers can directly supply to the end users; not just to the OEMs. Barriers to entry for power delivery systems should be brought down as well incl. Smart Power Grids so that startups can enter the space in order to improve power delivery to the end users, at the end of the day economics of owning an EV in India should be favourable for the consumer to invest in it.

867-5309 6y ago

"excluding" may have been more appropriate than "without"

xenospn 6y ago

How long before we have cars exploding because someone, somewhere, tried cutting corners and jerry-rigged a DIY battery in their car to save some money?

CarbyAu 6y ago

If they can do this for one highly complex, many moving parts, integrated product.... do it for phones. And standardise recycling while you're at it.

afrojack123 6y ago

Now I can drive my Tesla around with a hydrogen fuel and fuel cells.

speedgoose 6y ago
Why would you do that though?
- newen 6y ago
  Why not?
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Hydrogen is expensive and not convenient for cars.
    - afrojack123 6y ago
      Batteries are ~$3/KWH. The natural gas that hydrogen comes from is only $.50/KWH.
      - speedgoose 6y ago
        What about the hydrogen charging station?
        afrojack123 6y ago
        Modify existing gas stations to supply hydrogen instead.
        speedgoose 6y ago
        I was thinking about the cost of hydrogen fueling stations compared to electric fast chargers.

hathym 6y ago

Off topic, but why not a battery standard for all cars that will make charging almost instant by switching them just like we do with toys?

speedgoose 6y ago
Swapping a battery is simply a lot more complex than charging it. Renault tried it with the Fluence in Israel, it stopped. The Zoé has been designed to have easy battery swaps but it's not used. Tesla did some demos in the past but they didn't explore more. However Nio still believes in this solution, with proprietary batteries, so if they are very successful in China some others may try again.
- newyankee 6y ago
  Actually in Indian market the primary target audience i believe is 2 and 3 wheelers, which have smaller batteries and shorter ranges. China has already converted most of such fleet to electric. Due to lack of capability in producing batteries locally in India as well as geopolitical issues hampering China imports and dependency, this is one policy designed to make adoption cheaper. Indian ICE manufacturers never had the vision to create an EV industry at home, they are very reactive in nature. Only Tata, Mahindra have some capability and most of the 2 wheeler manufacturers were importing almost all the important components from China.

alexose 6y ago

We need an open source, modular, convenient swappable battery + BMS design. Something that end users can pick up and drop in their vehicle of choice. Something like the Gogoro battery, but with flexibility for larger vehicles.

pkphilip 6y ago

India currently has a law forcing the scrapping of all petrol and diesel vehicles after 15 years of manufacture. https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/car-news/cars-older-than-10-years-to-be-scrapped-govts-new-scrappage-policy-how-it-will-affect-you/1294836/ https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/car-news/cars-older-th... This is unnecessary as it will force perfectly usable vehicles to be scrapped and it would come at a huge cost to the environment. Ideally it would have been good to allow this change for internal combustion engines as well so as to allow ICE cars to swap out their engines for more fuel efficient engines.

captn3m0 6y ago
15 year old cars in India are tinboxes, with very little margin for safety. No airbags for eg. Maybe once we actually start manufacturing cars that are safe, we can turn this off after a decade.
- pkphilip 6y ago
  You can still buy new cars off the lot right now without airbags or any safety features. And of course, trucks and commercial vehicles rarely come with these safety features in any case. Also, this scrapping law applies even for vehicles with all safety features.. including from companies such as Mercedes, BMW, VW etc. I would think that it makes perfect sense to scrap vehicles - no matter how young/old, if it seriously fails an inspection or if the pollution levels from the vehicle is too bad - and there are existing "fitness" tests for this, and so why scrap vehicles which are well maintained?
  - knolax 6y ago
    I feel like in practice people will just find ways to skirt around the law. Who's gonna scrap a perfectly good BMW.
    - addicted 6y ago
      If it’s being used in Indian roads it’s not gonna be a perfectly good BNW in 15 years. Cars plummet in value in 5 years in India. The usage scenarios are nothing like in the US.

known 6y ago

Sounds rational since existing car owners prefer to covert to EVs https://www.bharatmobi.com/faqs/ https://www.bharatmobi.com/faqs/