9 ms·
Uh, not to be a jerk, but these are a lot lower than I was expecting.
by hiddencost 6y ago
Uh, not to be a jerk, but these are a lot lower than I was expecting.
- CydeWeys 6y agoThere's a reason there's no M in FANG.
- meddlepal 6y agoOTOH, I have heard a lot of people that have done both MS and FAANG say MS has a superior WLB in -most- units.
- novok 6y agoAnd they pay less as a result. It's always been out there that MSFT, Apple & Amazon pay less than F, N & G unless your a special case. But you get paid more if your special case everywhere anyway.
- vonmoltke 6y agoYeah, because Microsoft's stock was shit when Jim Cramer invented that acronym.
- CydeWeys 6y agoThat may be the original etymology, but to this day Microsoft isn't considered a top-tier tech employer compensation-wise. So lots of engineers saying "FANG" or "Top N" or whatever aren't including Microsoft in it for that reason. So there's basically two different but related definitions going on here, but we're specifically talking about their desirability as an employer, not "the biggest tech stocks".
- tomjakubowski 6y agoOn the other hand there is an M in "MANGO" (the O stands for "Opensource").
- adrr 6y agoIt is also Seattle which has a lower cost of living. You can get a decent house for 1mm in Redmond where the same house would be 3mm in the bay.
- sswezey 6y agoCompared to many places in the US, Seattle has a higher cost of living. Those salaries are lower than I was expecting for Seattle metro area too.
- vkou 6y agoSeattle salaries at other major tech firms are only ~10-15% lower than Bay Area ones. I am surprised by how poorly MS pays for the Seattle area.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> You can get a decent house for 1mm How are you going to afford a million dollar house on any but the top of these salaries?
- TomVDB 6y agoWith 20% downpayment, a $30 year 800K mortgage at 3.75% is $3700/month. That's $44K per year. Not impossible on $150k yearly compensation. And even easier if the family is dual-income on top of that.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> With 20% downpayment... Where on earth is someone on $150k, renting, going to get £200k in cash?
- triceratops 6y agoNot a single person. But a couple earning $250k jointly can easily knock that out in 4 years or so.
- 6y ago
- WillPostForFood 6y agoThe average entry-level engineer or program manager will have a total compensation of $125,665. That salary, with stability, good benefits, and stock options, seems pretty good for entry level.
- thelean12 6y agoNot for FAANG. I was making ~$170k total comp out of college at a FAANG as a SWE, and that was >5 years ago. Though I guess there's no M in FAANG.
- ecshafer 6y agoFWIW Levels.fyi has Microsoft at $164k vs Google and Facebook at $188k total comp. But if you consider the California income tax, that would knock that total down about $15k. So its really a 164k vs 173k. But with a significantly lower cost of living. Microsoft looks like it comes out ahead in pay. Now I am not sure on how hard it is to be promoted but it does look like you need several promotions at Microsoft to equal one promotion at Facebook or Google.
- johnward 6y agoThese are entry level salaries? I guess the cost of living in Ohio is dirt cheap but I would guess an entry level salary to be half of that now. Edit: I guess the cost of living is way less than half though.
- forgotmysn 6y agodefinitely. FAANG mostly recruit from top-tier programs (Harvard, Stanford, MIT) and usually pay $150-200 for a starting salary for someone from one of those programs
- veets 6y agoOf all the people I know at FAANG companies and that I interacted with while at Google, only one of them has a degree from one of those schools (a MS from Stanford done while they were already at Google). The idea that they mostly recruit from top-tier programs is false. Certainly being at those programs is a huge help, but by no means even remotely close to a requirement. I have been recruited by a few FAANG companies (recruited in the sense that a recruiter reached out for an interview) and have only gone to public schools, nothing impressive.
- carabiner 6y agoWA has no personal income tax. Also a bit of a libertarian flair overall, why MSFT is openly defense friendly, which means local government has allowed for building housing everywhere.
- m463 6y agoA friend of mine moved from california to washington. "with the cut in my taxes, I get a free house!" (meaning ca taxes = washington mortgage payment)
- subsubzero 6y agoI'd totally make that move any day of the week but can't deal with the perpetually gloomy weather. Overall though Washington seems great.
- carabiner 6y agoYes, it's perpetually gloomy. No sunshine at all, it's raining right now. Terrible quality of life. You made the right decision.
- johnward 6y agoSeattle seems about like Pittsburgh with less snow and more job opportunities. It was beautiful the times I've worked out there. I could probably live there. https://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/pittsburgh_pa/seattle_wa/climate https://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/pittsburgh_pa/seat...
- huac 6y agoSeattle in the summer is extraordinary (and currently "74F and mostly sunny") but undeniably pretty gloomy for a large chunk of the year
- volkadav 6y agoTo be honest, speaking as a transplant, it is really great up here. We moved from Austin and haven't regretted it for a second (and the whole family loved Austin too). Instead of having a miserable summer that lasts from April to October, we have a miserable winter that lasts from November to March. Taxes are about par, government is (imho) quite a bit more sane, the job market is broader and deeper, public schools are better, and the scenery is gorgeous when not hidden by clouds.
- wolco 6y agoInteresting stats Mostly all junior and that makes sense in terms of who is sharing. 60% said they were visible minority and 22% said their gender was an issue. Does that lineup with recent Microsoft hires or is this dataset unrepresentative.
- godelski 6y agoAccording to the article > Microsoft’s latest diversity report showed the company was mainly white and male, especially at the highest levels. It is reasonable to believe that this data set is not representative.
- meowsinspace 6y agoMinority can mean Asian/ South Asian. This seems right. (Source: Microsoft employee)
- godelski 6y agoThere is sampling bias, so it is unclear if these salaries are representative. Reading the article it would not be unreasonable to conclude that those that participated in the survey are more likely to be those that are under paid. > A majority — 194 out of 310 — total respondents said they were people of color. Also, 69 respondents reported feeling marginalized or at risk of being marginalized due to their gender or gender identity. In total, 22% of respondents said that their gender or gender identity had or might hinder them at work. This indicates that it is not a representative sample of M$. Though which conclusions to make from it are much harder to say.
- throwmsftsal324 6y agoI started a year ago fresh out of college at L60 and my TC this past year was ~220k. I've never been expected to work over 40 hours, and my engineering manager allows days off basically at-will (in addition to the prescribed 15 vacation). I also just got promoted, raising my expected TC for next year to ~250k. I think you're right about there being selection bias... people who are happy with their package don't spend their time filling out these spreadsheets (I didn't!) Also, I note that if I had taken just my initial offer, my TC would have been much closer to the listed. But I went through the long and arduous process of sending one email to my recruiter asking for more money and here I am.
- VRay 6y agoDamn dawg, I was there as a level 61 (or maybe it was 62? I can't remember..) a few years ago, and my total compensation was something like $180k in Redmond. I negotiated a little, but didn't push that hard I guess I'm technically a "person of color" (Hispanic) but I have a ton of useful, valuable experience and so far as code monkeys go I'm pretty good at negotiation. I thought Microsoft was a horrible pit of vipers and a generally terrible company, but I definitely did NOT experience any racism. Maybe the people who responded to the survey are generally just really bad at negotiation, and the HR people should've gone easier on them.. I don't think it's feasible to get a 50% pay bump without changing jobs, so they're all in a really awful position
- bogdanu 6y agoStill higher than anywhere in Europe.
- chrisseaton 6y agoYou can beat this in London if you look at the finance tech job boards.
- non-entity 6y agoI might be wrong, but reading online, Microsoft seems to be talked about as if pay is a lot lower than similar big tech companies and held in a low regard than say, Google or FB.
- ianhorn 6y agoThe fact that this includes stock makes it that much more surprising. Microsoft’s stock has grown like 5x in the last four years, (2x over the last two). An offer that was worth $150k when you were hired is probably making you lots more now if there were lots of stock. But apparently the stock awards are like $3k-$10k? [edit: stock, not stock options]
- Arainach 6y agoFor anyone other than the absolute top performers, Microsoft's stock grants weren't that great. I left a couple of years ago at L63 with decent reviews and had perhaps 40K of unvested stock total. I went to Google as L4 for a 40% increase in total comp with a similar offer from Facebook. If I had went as L5 the difference would have been even crazier. Stock refreshes have been significantly higher here.
- Infinitesimus 6y agoNice! Do you mind sharing your rough Google offer breakdown?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 98codes 6y agoNot stock options -- actual vested stock grants.
- safog 6y agoI think it might be a mix of job categories, not just SWE. Still lower than what I'd expect. https://www.levels.fyi/# https://www.levels.fyi/# exists but might be inflated a bit.
- kerng 6y agoThat is my observation also - but its known that Microsoft is not paying as well.
- mav3rick 6y agoMicrosoft doesn't pay top dollar.
- jetbooster 6y ago> Me, a Brit looking at these numbers > A lot lower than I was expecting ... I need to emmigrate
- morei 6y agoOr get a job with one of the FAANG companies in the UK? (e.g. both Google and Facebook have engineering offices there)
- oblio 6y agoEven so, they adjust for cost of living (edit: and local market rate). Salaries in the US are just higher than in Europe. I think Switzerland is the only exception.
- mav3rick 6y agoIt's not cost of living, it's the market rate. London has a high cost of living but salaries are lower.
- oblio 6y agoYeah, you're probably right. Rephrasing: the market rate in Europe is lower than in the US. Between 1.5 - 2 - much, much more.
- disgruntledphd2 6y agoIt's only the market rate in London because they ignore the existence of finance, which is where you can make serious money in London.
- mav3rick 6y agoThey don't "ignore" anything. The market is what's relevant to them . SWE salaries and not banking salaries. SWE salaries in finance would be even worse in London.
- freyr 6y agoMicrosoft is known for paying lower than FAANG, and most employees are in a significantly lower cost-of-living area (specifically, much lower cost of home ownership) than Facebook/Google/Apple/Netflix/etc. employees. Also, I wonder if employees who feel they’re being paid well would have anything to gain by filling this out. So there may be sampling bias.
- shepwalker 6y agothe amount of internal denial about the pay gap between us and FANG companies is pretty silly. a lot of high performers get the principal-band bump tangled in front of them for years as an incentive. (level 66+. level 65 is the first "principal" level but doesn't get the non-linear comp boost yet).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hintymad 6y agoIt's expected. MS has been a large company for a while, which means two things: revenue per employee is not necessarily high, and visibility of individuals can be murky. As a result, packages are heavily skewed towards most senior people. I bet the partner engineers, for instance, make quite decent income.