5 ms·

The sun has a radius of about 700,000 km, but the question is interesting and there should be a fairly small upper border, since too much mass would end in a bl

The sun has a radius of about 700,000 km, but the question is interesting and there should be a fairly small upper border, since too much mass would end in a black hole.

jacquesm 6y ago
Question: if the sun has a 'fixed' radius but it is radiating constantly doesn't that mean that at some point that radius will change due to the changing radiation pressure from within the sun itself? If so how fast does that change, and how large was the sun say a billion years ago?
- nabla9 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#/media/File:So...
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I have no idea. I think it should grow with mass loss, but I think there were measurements the have shown that it currently somehow doesn't really change its size.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    The response of star to mass loss is highly nonlinear and dependent on other factors than mass. Mass losses over life of a star have usually much less effect on the star than composition changes (but there are exceptions). As the star consumes its fuel its internal composition can change drastically with very little change in mass.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  The sun will grow to a red giant in a billion years or so. The earth will possibly be swallowed by it but at least in a few hundred million years earth will be so hot that oceans boil off and life will be impossible on earth. I hope I got the numbers right...
  - bluedevil2k 6y ago
    Boil off where? What would happen to the water vapor if it floats off the Earth into the vacuum of space? Pulled in by the Sun's gravity and forever lost?
    - ardit33 6y ago
      Think Venus.... Scorched surface and lots of hot gases above it
      - bluedevil2k 6y ago
        There's no water vapor on Venus though. At a certain point in the atmosphere, wouldn't it be cool enough and pressure low enough to make clouds still? Maybe they move around the Earth to the cool side away from the Sun?
        ben_w 6y ago
        Water disassociates into hydrogen and oxygen in UV light, and hydrogen gas move faster than escape velocity, even at current atmospheric temperatures. Ok, so it is more complicated than that, the speed of any atom or molecule is a Maxwellian distribution, but enough move fast enough that it’s an acceptable approximation, especially over these time scales.
  - theli0nheart 6y ago
    Per Wikipedia, hydrogen exhaustion will begin in about 5 billion years from now. > The Sun does not have enough mass to explode as a supernova. Instead it will exit the main sequence in approximately 5 billion years and start to turn into a red giant. As a red giant, the Sun will grow so large that it will engulf Mercury, Venus, and probably Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  Ignoring changes in time, that nabla9 already explained, the Sun doesn't have a "fixed" radius either. It has a noisy gas surface, that goes up and down, and some times is pulled so far out of the Sun that at those places talking about "radius" is meaningless. That 700000km figure is a coarse average.
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  At this point in its life the Sun is in equilibrium: it loses mass (which would make it smaller), but this decreases its gravity and pressure (which makes it larger), and these two effects cancel out almost exactly. So the Sun will remain approximately the same size for another 5 billion years or so, until the next phase of stellar evolution.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Thank you for answering the question.
- yummypaint 6y ago
  The pressure balancing gravity in a star like the sun comes from electromagnetism. Neutron stars are so heavy that the pressure comes from the nuclear forces and degeneracy pressure (the same reason there are at most two electrons per orbital in chemistry). They are really fundamentally different objects. A neutron star is more like an enormous nucleus bound by gravity, while the sun is just plasma with an occasional nuclear reaction happening. Future changes in the sun's radius have more to do with its changing composition over time, which alters the reactions that can occur and their rates, which subsequently change the balance between pressure and gravity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_sequence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_sequence
- antognini 6y ago
  The main driver of change on the main sequence is the change in composition in the core. Over time the fraction of the core that is hydrogen decreases and the fraction of helium increases. This reduces the number density of particles in the core since four free protons have become a single helium nucleus. The decrease in number density causes the core to contract slightly and heat up so that the pressure remains the same. The increased temperature causes the rate of nuclear reactions to increase, which then increases the luminosity. The increased luminosity then causes the outer envelope of the star to "puff up" and the radius to increase. This is not a dramatic process, but over billions of years it has a noticeable effect. The Sun is now 15% larger and about 50% more luminous than when it entered the main sequence. This is actually the source of an open problem in astronomy called the Faint Young Sun Paradox [1]. Because the Sun was much less luminous in the past, the temperature on Earth should have been about 20 K cooler in the past, but geological measurements don't seem to bear that out. Somehow the Earth managed to stay warmer in the past given the same level of solar irradiation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox
sandworm101 6y ago
Too much mass... but if it is spinning maybe it can be bigger. Neutron stars spin extrodinarily fast. And what if the singularity forms in the core, but the spinning shell remains outside to form an acretion disk of neutronium? Boom? Or does it heat/slow fast enough that the star just winks out into a bh?
- Retric 6y ago
  Neutron stars resist gravity due to the internal pressure just like planets and other stars. Which is why they end up spherical. Put a tiny black hole in any of them and you get the same issue as trying to build a house on thin air. The only way it could be stable is a tiny body which is supported based on the structural integrity of the material. This is why asteroids can have very odd shapes. PS: As to spinning, Neutronium really wants to blow up. Neutron stars are stable due to gravity and internal pressure. Start spinning them around a black hole and you just get a normal accretion disk
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Well, some neutron stars are spinning at a substantial portion of c, the record being 1/4 c. In an object the size of a city, that some serious force pulling against collapse.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      The event horizon is like a waterfall, only instead of water it is causality. To a first approximation (because time and space melting into each other in a wildly non-Euclidean environment isn’t something I can do justice to), unless the neutron star is spinning so fast it is a torus with a black-hole-sized gap in the middle, a black hole inside a neutron star will doom it.
      - raattgift 6y ago
        The horizon is not anything like hard surface. You can't stack things on top of it. The near-horizon exterior gets extremely dynamical when you put lots of matter there, and the result is almost always a lot less matter there and a bigger horizon area, typically within timescales comparable to the light-crossing time of the horizon diameter. Things really do fall into (rather than onto) black holes, even if some classes of observers might struggle to witness the details and even though it is tempting for ease of calculation or ease of theorizing to treat matter as being smeared onto the horizon rather than crossing through (and/or redefining) it. Stress-energy can find itself inside a black hole horizon with no noticeable local effects for some time. One could in principle collapse a perfectly uniform shell of ultrarelativistic matter around some victim, for example, such that the victim is inside the horizon -- that is, the victim's outgoing radio signals cannot reach the rest of the universe -- hours before the matter reaches the victim. Neutron stars require "signals" (QCD and other interactions) exchanged among its deepest components in order to stabilize the entire structure, and the system can find itself in a configuration wherein signals from region A cannot reach region B, so signals from B are wrong to stabilize region C and so on, and the result can be some combination of implosion and explosion. This doesn't fit well with the analogy of going over the edge of a waterfall. As to your neutron-star-matter torus around a BH, it's hard to contrive even a toy a stress-energy tensor where the generating non-interacting matter doesn't stray onto plunging geodesics, and I struggle to imagine how real interacting matter with inelastic collisions could be more stable. Another salient feature of even the toy version of such system is that there would be enough moving matter in the torus for it to be subject to self-gravitation. Consequently, you're into the task of combining at least a pair of substantially different metrics in the limit where you can't just linearize, resort to perturbation theory, or drop in a Darmois-Israel junction -- that is, you're into the realm of a full numerical relativity task and a full relativistic hydrodynamics task. A taste for what this involves can be had at https://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/181055/Core-Collapse-in-CFC_ https://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/181055/Core-Collapse-in-CFC_

The sun has a radius of about 700,000 km, but the question is interesting and there should be a fairly small upper border, since too much mass would end in a black hole.

jacquesm 6y ago

Question: if the sun has a 'fixed' radius but it is radiating constantly doesn't that mean that at some point that radius will change due to the changing radiation pressure from within the sun itself? If so how fast does that change, and how large was the sun say a billion years ago?

nabla9 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#/media/File:So...
raxxorrax 6y ago
I have no idea. I think it should grow with mass loss, but I think there were measurements the have shown that it currently somehow doesn't really change its size.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  The response of star to mass loss is highly nonlinear and dependent on other factors than mass. Mass losses over life of a star have usually much less effect on the star than composition changes (but there are exceptions). As the star consumes its fuel its internal composition can change drastically with very little change in mass.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
The sun will grow to a red giant in a billion years or so. The earth will possibly be swallowed by it but at least in a few hundred million years earth will be so hot that oceans boil off and life will be impossible on earth. I hope I got the numbers right...
- bluedevil2k 6y ago
  Boil off where? What would happen to the water vapor if it floats off the Earth into the vacuum of space? Pulled in by the Sun's gravity and forever lost?
  - ardit33 6y ago
    Think Venus.... Scorched surface and lots of hot gases above it
    - bluedevil2k 6y ago
      There's no water vapor on Venus though. At a certain point in the atmosphere, wouldn't it be cool enough and pressure low enough to make clouds still? Maybe they move around the Earth to the cool side away from the Sun?
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Water disassociates into hydrogen and oxygen in UV light, and hydrogen gas move faster than escape velocity, even at current atmospheric temperatures. Ok, so it is more complicated than that, the speed of any atom or molecule is a Maxwellian distribution, but enough move fast enough that it’s an acceptable approximation, especially over these time scales.
- theli0nheart 6y ago
  Per Wikipedia, hydrogen exhaustion will begin in about 5 billion years from now. > The Sun does not have enough mass to explode as a supernova. Instead it will exit the main sequence in approximately 5 billion years and start to turn into a red giant. As a red giant, the Sun will grow so large that it will engulf Mercury, Venus, and probably Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun
marcosdumay 6y ago
Ignoring changes in time, that nabla9 already explained, the Sun doesn't have a "fixed" radius either. It has a noisy gas surface, that goes up and down, and some times is pulled so far out of the Sun that at those places talking about "radius" is meaningless. That 700000km figure is a coarse average.
Analemma_ 6y ago
At this point in its life the Sun is in equilibrium: it loses mass (which would make it smaller), but this decreases its gravity and pressure (which makes it larger), and these two effects cancel out almost exactly. So the Sun will remain approximately the same size for another 5 billion years or so, until the next phase of stellar evolution.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Thank you for answering the question.
yummypaint 6y ago
The pressure balancing gravity in a star like the sun comes from electromagnetism. Neutron stars are so heavy that the pressure comes from the nuclear forces and degeneracy pressure (the same reason there are at most two electrons per orbital in chemistry). They are really fundamentally different objects. A neutron star is more like an enormous nucleus bound by gravity, while the sun is just plasma with an occasional nuclear reaction happening. Future changes in the sun's radius have more to do with its changing composition over time, which alters the reactions that can occur and their rates, which subsequently change the balance between pressure and gravity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_sequence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_sequence
antognini 6y ago
The main driver of change on the main sequence is the change in composition in the core. Over time the fraction of the core that is hydrogen decreases and the fraction of helium increases. This reduces the number density of particles in the core since four free protons have become a single helium nucleus. The decrease in number density causes the core to contract slightly and heat up so that the pressure remains the same. The increased temperature causes the rate of nuclear reactions to increase, which then increases the luminosity. The increased luminosity then causes the outer envelope of the star to "puff up" and the radius to increase. This is not a dramatic process, but over billions of years it has a noticeable effect. The Sun is now 15% larger and about 50% more luminous than when it entered the main sequence. This is actually the source of an open problem in astronomy called the Faint Young Sun Paradox [1]. Because the Sun was much less luminous in the past, the temperature on Earth should have been about 20 K cooler in the past, but geological measurements don't seem to bear that out. Somehow the Earth managed to stay warmer in the past given the same level of solar irradiation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

sandworm101 6y ago

Too much mass... but if it is spinning maybe it can be bigger. Neutron stars spin extrodinarily fast. And what if the singularity forms in the core, but the spinning shell remains outside to form an acretion disk of neutronium? Boom? Or does it heat/slow fast enough that the star just winks out into a bh?

Retric 6y ago
Neutron stars resist gravity due to the internal pressure just like planets and other stars. Which is why they end up spherical. Put a tiny black hole in any of them and you get the same issue as trying to build a house on thin air. The only way it could be stable is a tiny body which is supported based on the structural integrity of the material. This is why asteroids can have very odd shapes. PS: As to spinning, Neutronium really wants to blow up. Neutron stars are stable due to gravity and internal pressure. Start spinning them around a black hole and you just get a normal accretion disk
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Well, some neutron stars are spinning at a substantial portion of c, the record being 1/4 c. In an object the size of a city, that some serious force pulling against collapse.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    The event horizon is like a waterfall, only instead of water it is causality. To a first approximation (because time and space melting into each other in a wildly non-Euclidean environment isn’t something I can do justice to), unless the neutron star is spinning so fast it is a torus with a black-hole-sized gap in the middle, a black hole inside a neutron star will doom it.
    - raattgift 6y ago
      The horizon is not anything like hard surface. You can't stack things on top of it. The near-horizon exterior gets extremely dynamical when you put lots of matter there, and the result is almost always a lot less matter there and a bigger horizon area, typically within timescales comparable to the light-crossing time of the horizon diameter. Things really do fall into (rather than onto) black holes, even if some classes of observers might struggle to witness the details and even though it is tempting for ease of calculation or ease of theorizing to treat matter as being smeared onto the horizon rather than crossing through (and/or redefining) it. Stress-energy can find itself inside a black hole horizon with no noticeable local effects for some time. One could in principle collapse a perfectly uniform shell of ultrarelativistic matter around some victim, for example, such that the victim is inside the horizon -- that is, the victim's outgoing radio signals cannot reach the rest of the universe -- hours before the matter reaches the victim. Neutron stars require "signals" (QCD and other interactions) exchanged among its deepest components in order to stabilize the entire structure, and the system can find itself in a configuration wherein signals from region A cannot reach region B, so signals from B are wrong to stabilize region C and so on, and the result can be some combination of implosion and explosion. This doesn't fit well with the analogy of going over the edge of a waterfall. As to your neutron-star-matter torus around a BH, it's hard to contrive even a toy a stress-energy tensor where the generating non-interacting matter doesn't stray onto plunging geodesics, and I struggle to imagine how real interacting matter with inelastic collisions could be more stable. Another salient feature of even the toy version of such system is that there would be enough moving matter in the torus for it to be subject to self-gravitation. Consequently, you're into the task of combining at least a pair of substantially different metrics in the limit where you can't just linearize, resort to perturbation theory, or drop in a Darmois-Israel junction -- that is, you're into the realm of a full numerical relativity task and a full relativistic hydrodynamics task. A taste for what this involves can be had at https://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/181055/Core-Collapse-in-CFC_ https://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/181055/Core-Collapse-in-CFC_