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Albanian here, and it wasn't a civil war.... more of general unrest against the government, which was forced to resign and be replaced by a transitory one...

Albanian here, and it wasn't a civil war.... more of general unrest against the government, which was forced to resign and be replaced by a transitory one... A civil war requires several factions, while this was more of a un -coordinated massive unrest.... Most of the deaths happened during the unrests between bands, people settling scores, etc... This is similar to the June unrests and looting in the US, but squared, with weapons and more... (from army depots, as most of the army refused to try to squash the demonstrations, and just went home) Also, the money problem was just the spark, as there was some major unhappiness with the government then, that started with election frauds in 1996 committed by the government. The whole thing lasted about a month or so in March, and it honestly felt something like the movie "The Purge". The government failed, there was no police in the streets, the army went home, people had weapons, looting and robbing were common, by 'masked people', it was not a good month... Eventually things calmed down. Italy sent some monitoring troops, to help with the transition of the new Goverment... All the weapons that got out of the army depots, ended up furnishing the Kosovo Liberation Army, and eventually the Kosova war in 1998-99, that ended up with Kosova's independence... (Kosovo, is 90% Albanian, and they were trying to get independence peacefully, after to the Yugoslavian break-up to no avail. The Albanian unrest and some US help helped them out in the end). So, I guess there was one good thing that came out of the whole mess. Ps. We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South, so it could 'pacify' the place (and potentially anex it). It would not have ended up well. Albania at that time had so many weapons left from the Communnist era, and it wouldn't had gone well for them.

vmception 6y ago
> Most of the deaths happened during the unrests between bands, people settling scores That’s scary
- ardit33 6y ago
  About 3k un-natural deaths in total for the year, in a country of 3mill. Which is a lot, but considering the country has about 30 mini-regions/towns, it is about 100 deaths per region. (in contrast, Oakland, CA has about 60-110 murders a year, (depending on the year). Currently the whole country has about 50-60 murders per year, which is close to the E.U. average, When I saw the movie 'The Purge', I was like: that's like Albania in 97....
  - onetimemanytime 6y ago
    >>Currently the whole country has about 50-60 murders per year, which is close to the E.U. average, Yes, but stats are misleading. Almost all these murders are targeted ones, criminals executing each other or people settling scores from previous years. Random killings in Albania virtually don't exist.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      Isn't that true of murders in most countries?
    - vmception 6y ago
      I don't see anything misleading about the discussion as a whole though, what you are saying reinforces the point: Everyone is just silently waiting to disregarding the judicial system for any transgression that rubbed them the wrong way. They want to kill with your death being lost in the fray.
      - onetimemanytime 6y ago
        Misleading is a negative word that may suggest that the person intended to mislead, I agree. But "stats in this case don't tell the entire story." Mafiosi don't like to call the cops on each other, same story everywhere. For other killings, the killer bribed his way out of trouble, so the traditional justice system failed.
slim 6y ago
I can make a beautiful conspiracy theory out of this. hell, I could even connect it to operation gladio
- ardit33 6y ago
  Albania was not communist at the time, and Italy mostly wanted to help as it had already a lot of Albanian immigrants at the time, and Italian - Albanian relations are excellent. (we forgave them for the multiple times they tried to invade us between 1919 and 1943. They actually built a lot of stuff, and the current Tirana's center and architecture was built by Italians in the 1939-1942 period), and Italy is currently a good ally. The conspiracy theory is the army depot were destroyed open by agents paid by the Greek government, which wanted an excuse to invade the south of Albania.... (which it had tempted back in 1920). Those theories were not that far off, they were seriously planning to send some kind of invasion. One reason that many Albanians don't like Greeks in general. They have historically been a bad neighbor.
  - planetis 6y ago
    > They have historically been a bad neighbor. How's so? With almost half a million Albanians living and working in Greece, you would expect relations to be normalized. There was the recent turmoil with Albanian government revealing its plans to annex the homes of ethnic Greeks of Albania [1], but it was canceled due to diplomatic efforts of the Greek government. [1] https://www.tanea.gr/2019/03/31/english-edition/tirana-pushes-land-grab-of-greek-minority-properties-in-himara/ https://www.tanea.gr/2019/03/31/english-edition/tirana-pushe...
  - qemali 6y ago
    Having lived just on the other side of the border let me shed some light on the "bad neighbour" comments. Greece was on the other side of the iron curtain compared to Albania, there was a -declared- state of war between the two countries until the mid eighties (1986 I think) and there is a significant Greek minority in the Albanian South. The three combined created a particularly bad climate between the countries. That has changed drastically - at least south of the border. In 2019 Greece indeed sent troups to Albania after an earthquake and an invitation, but it was not for war - they tried to help and set up their field kitchens to provide food for some time. I cannot account for the feelings of the Albanians but I can certainly say that most Greeks harbor no ill feelings for them :)
sushshshsh 6y ago
There were factions and groups that were constantly warring and amalgamating. It's mostly semantics but what happened is the country fell apart.
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  True, but in a civil war you have organized groups against each other. The biggest criminal group /gang in Albania probably had 30-50 members, and mostly were cousins and locals. State fell apart, why would the local cop risk his and his family's life for peanuts when his own chief would let the drug dealers pass the drugs for a fee? Or let the murderers go away, also for money. The corrupt and non-existent state is also responsible for revenge attacks, the state doesn't jail your son's killer so you must administer justice. Sounds medieval and it is, but also the killer walking past your door, when your son has rotted in the grave is not right either.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Not just organised groups, but groups organised in a particular manner. "Party To A Conflict" is a technical term[1], and normally a civil war requires at least two Parties. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23880772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23880772 [1] at least for those who hope to abide by Geneva Conventions and/or have some fear of winding up in front of the ICC.
atmosx 6y ago
> Ps. We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South, so it could 'pacify' the place (and potentially anex it). It would not have ended up well. Albania at that time had so many weapons left from the Communnist era, and it wouldn't had gone well for them. Heh, the old lieutenant I had in the GR army was always complaining about Greece losing an opportunity to annex Albania at the time. I've always thought he was full of crap because old military ppl dream about war day and night, no one really pays attention to them. Of course they always come out on top, in their stories/fantasies! Apparently he wasn't full of crap, that was put under serious consideration. Broadly speaking, Greece had expansionary policies until the Greco-Turkish was in 1919-1922, an extension of the first world war. After a victory who ended up in a disaster without the Greek army even putting up a fight, the focus has been to keep the borders as they were[1]. Hopefully, this part of the world won't see more warfare... It's always the layperson who get screwed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  >>Heh, the old lieutenant I had in the GR army was always complaining about Greece losing an opportunity to annex Albania at the time. Good thing Greek culture is quite similar to their Turkish overlord' one, so no learning curve, just back to the old days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller#Deputy_Prime_Minister_(1996%E2%80%931997) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller#Deputy_Prime... Turkey sent word those days via a public speech to Greece that should they try to occupy Albania, the Turkish army is ready to march to Athens (Like they did in Cyprus.) Geopolitically, Turkey is interested in weakening Greece as much as they can, so locally they support Albania. Also Italy has interests in helping Albania but they aren't know for being good fighters so one takes them seriously ;)
badsectoracula 6y ago
> We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South, so it could 'pacify' the place (and potentially anex it). Any source for that? The closest i could find was some speculations by Turkey. In practice there is no way this would have gone well with anyone in Greece, it would be political suicide.
- pvg 6y ago
  It's conspiracy theory. How on earth would Greece, a NATO and EU member, annex a piece of another sovereign country, especially in the middle of ongoing NATO military operations in a highly unstable region.
  - knolax 6y ago
    > a NATO and EU member, annex a piece of another sovereign country https://www.rferl.org/a/29669794.html https://www.rferl.org/a/29669794.html
    - pvg 6y ago
      I don't see the connection. None of the countries listed have annexed any part of Afghanistan.
      - knolax 6y ago
        Yeah, they've only occupied it on and off for 19 years. So much better.
metroholografix 6y ago
Where are these "released documents" ? That Greece, an EU member, would invade Albania in a similar manner to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus defies belief. This must be one of the most implausible conspiracy theories I've ever heard.
- knolax 6y ago
  What does being an EU member have to do with this. If you look at the history behind most EU member nations it would only make them seem more prone to invading others.
ggeorgovassilis 6y ago
> Ps. We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South FUD. That is implausible considering that Greece has enough at its hands with Turkey. An offensive war would void all defence treaties. If there were any "plans" it would have been as part of a UN/NATO peace mission.

vmception 6y ago

> Most of the deaths happened during the unrests between bands, people settling scores That’s scary

ardit33 6y ago
About 3k un-natural deaths in total for the year, in a country of 3mill. Which is a lot, but considering the country has about 30 mini-regions/towns, it is about 100 deaths per region. (in contrast, Oakland, CA has about 60-110 murders a year, (depending on the year). Currently the whole country has about 50-60 murders per year, which is close to the E.U. average, When I saw the movie 'The Purge', I was like: that's like Albania in 97....
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  >>Currently the whole country has about 50-60 murders per year, which is close to the E.U. average, Yes, but stats are misleading. Almost all these murders are targeted ones, criminals executing each other or people settling scores from previous years. Random killings in Albania virtually don't exist.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Isn't that true of murders in most countries?
  - vmception 6y ago
    I don't see anything misleading about the discussion as a whole though, what you are saying reinforces the point: Everyone is just silently waiting to disregarding the judicial system for any transgression that rubbed them the wrong way. They want to kill with your death being lost in the fray.
    - onetimemanytime 6y ago
      Misleading is a negative word that may suggest that the person intended to mislead, I agree. But "stats in this case don't tell the entire story." Mafiosi don't like to call the cops on each other, same story everywhere. For other killings, the killer bribed his way out of trouble, so the traditional justice system failed.

slim 6y ago

I can make a beautiful conspiracy theory out of this. hell, I could even connect it to operation gladio

ardit33 6y ago
Albania was not communist at the time, and Italy mostly wanted to help as it had already a lot of Albanian immigrants at the time, and Italian - Albanian relations are excellent. (we forgave them for the multiple times they tried to invade us between 1919 and 1943. They actually built a lot of stuff, and the current Tirana's center and architecture was built by Italians in the 1939-1942 period), and Italy is currently a good ally. The conspiracy theory is the army depot were destroyed open by agents paid by the Greek government, which wanted an excuse to invade the south of Albania.... (which it had tempted back in 1920). Those theories were not that far off, they were seriously planning to send some kind of invasion. One reason that many Albanians don't like Greeks in general. They have historically been a bad neighbor.
- planetis 6y ago
  > They have historically been a bad neighbor. How's so? With almost half a million Albanians living and working in Greece, you would expect relations to be normalized. There was the recent turmoil with Albanian government revealing its plans to annex the homes of ethnic Greeks of Albania [1], but it was canceled due to diplomatic efforts of the Greek government. [1] https://www.tanea.gr/2019/03/31/english-edition/tirana-pushes-land-grab-of-greek-minority-properties-in-himara/ https://www.tanea.gr/2019/03/31/english-edition/tirana-pushe...
- qemali 6y ago
  Having lived just on the other side of the border let me shed some light on the "bad neighbour" comments. Greece was on the other side of the iron curtain compared to Albania, there was a -declared- state of war between the two countries until the mid eighties (1986 I think) and there is a significant Greek minority in the Albanian South. The three combined created a particularly bad climate between the countries. That has changed drastically - at least south of the border. In 2019 Greece indeed sent troups to Albania after an earthquake and an invitation, but it was not for war - they tried to help and set up their field kitchens to provide food for some time. I cannot account for the feelings of the Albanians but I can certainly say that most Greeks harbor no ill feelings for them :)

sushshshsh 6y ago

There were factions and groups that were constantly warring and amalgamating. It's mostly semantics but what happened is the country fell apart.

onetimemanytime 6y ago
True, but in a civil war you have organized groups against each other. The biggest criminal group /gang in Albania probably had 30-50 members, and mostly were cousins and locals. State fell apart, why would the local cop risk his and his family's life for peanuts when his own chief would let the drug dealers pass the drugs for a fee? Or let the murderers go away, also for money. The corrupt and non-existent state is also responsible for revenge attacks, the state doesn't jail your son's killer so you must administer justice. Sounds medieval and it is, but also the killer walking past your door, when your son has rotted in the grave is not right either.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Not just organised groups, but groups organised in a particular manner. "Party To A Conflict" is a technical term[1], and normally a civil war requires at least two Parties. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23880772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23880772 [1] at least for those who hope to abide by Geneva Conventions and/or have some fear of winding up in front of the ICC.

atmosx 6y ago

> Ps. We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South, so it could 'pacify' the place (and potentially anex it). It would not have ended up well. Albania at that time had so many weapons left from the Communnist era, and it wouldn't had gone well for them. Heh, the old lieutenant I had in the GR army was always complaining about Greece losing an opportunity to annex Albania at the time. I've always thought he was full of crap because old military ppl dream about war day and night, no one really pays attention to them. Of course they always come out on top, in their stories/fantasies! Apparently he wasn't full of crap, that was put under serious consideration. Broadly speaking, Greece had expansionary policies until the Greco-Turkish was in 1919-1922, an extension of the first world war. After a victory who ended up in a disaster without the Greek army even putting up a fight, the focus has been to keep the borders as they were[1]. Hopefully, this part of the world won't see more warfare... It's always the layperson who get screwed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

onetimemanytime 6y ago
>>Heh, the old lieutenant I had in the GR army was always complaining about Greece losing an opportunity to annex Albania at the time. Good thing Greek culture is quite similar to their Turkish overlord' one, so no learning curve, just back to the old days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller#Deputy_Prime_Minister_(1996%E2%80%931997) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller#Deputy_Prime... Turkey sent word those days via a public speech to Greece that should they try to occupy Albania, the Turkish army is ready to march to Athens (Like they did in Cyprus.) Geopolitically, Turkey is interested in weakening Greece as much as they can, so locally they support Albania. Also Italy has interests in helping Albania but they aren't know for being good fighters so one takes them seriously ;)

badsectoracula 6y ago

> We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South, so it could 'pacify' the place (and potentially anex it). Any source for that? The closest i could find was some speculations by Turkey. In practice there is no way this would have gone well with anyone in Greece, it would be political suicide.

pvg 6y ago
It's conspiracy theory. How on earth would Greece, a NATO and EU member, annex a piece of another sovereign country, especially in the middle of ongoing NATO military operations in a highly unstable region.
- knolax 6y ago
  > a NATO and EU member, annex a piece of another sovereign country https://www.rferl.org/a/29669794.html https://www.rferl.org/a/29669794.html
  - pvg 6y ago
    I don't see the connection. None of the countries listed have annexed any part of Afghanistan.
    - knolax 6y ago
      Yeah, they've only occupied it on and off for 19 years. So much better.

metroholografix 6y ago

Where are these "released documents" ? That Greece, an EU member, would invade Albania in a similar manner to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus defies belief. This must be one of the most implausible conspiracy theories I've ever heard.

knolax 6y ago
What does being an EU member have to do with this. If you look at the history behind most EU member nations it would only make them seem more prone to invading others.

ggeorgovassilis 6y ago

> Ps. We just learned this year, from released documents, that Greece was planing at some point to send a invading force to the South FUD. That is implausible considering that Greece has enough at its hands with Turkey. An offensive war would void all defence treaties. If there were any "plans" it would have been as part of a UN/NATO peace mission.