14 ms·

The “menu engineers” who optimize restaurant revenue

223 points by Anon84 6y ago

apacheCamel 6y ago
I just got back from a trip to Las Vegas and every single restaurant we went to had a QR code + online menu. Now, I am not sure if it was related to the reasoning stated here, but all the menus were also very short, with only a few items each. Personally, I was quite happy to view the menu on my phone. I know for a fact though my parents and grandparents would have hated such a thing.
- vmception 6y ago
  In San Francisco everywhere has QR codes and the same format. Had wine and charcuterie: food and separate drink menu on two different QR codes. It's not perfect, many times the checkout system is haphazard, doesn't make use of Apple Pay or anything built into the phone. Requires user to input their table number into the checkout process. Or its just a surrogate for normal waiter / server experience and they come up to you eventually (which is fine). People all seem willing to tolerate the experience, and all the older luddites and technophobes are still in their prepper bunkers or just not in the city. Interesting how much the last decade of technology and proliferation has prepared us for this. QR codes, mobile phones, highly available high speed internet. Just going back 10 years in many major cities, even San Francisco and New York, this would have been much much worse to adjust to.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    >all the older luddites and technophobes are still in their prepper bunkers Lose the name calling here please.
    - vmception 6y ago
      okay what are the non-derogatory but also accurate words here? I am aiming to use language to convey a message for: "a person opposed to new technology or ways of working." and "a person who fears, dislikes, or avoids new technology." which is literally a copy and paste job from the definitions on google. They are older than the people going out. edit: ahhh if that one irreconcilable line dilutes my message for people here I don't really care enough about this conversation to placate whoever that got the attention of. I added to the discussion maybe others have a relatable experience. Moving on.
      - rolph 6y ago
        they are called customers, or diners, also called people or persons
  - rhino369 6y ago
    Phone menus I’ve seen so far are inferior to a good paper menu. I’d rather have a scanned pdf than the menus I’ve seen. I’m sure someone could create one that is usable, but I haven’t run into one yet.
    - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
      Which is maddening with transitions and zoom in/zoom out.
  - cutoff 6y ago
    My restaurant has been trying to implement a contactless ordering & checkout system since the initial shutdown in CA back in March. Our CEO refuses to open, even for takeout, until our dining experience is seamless. The trouble is is that nowhere has a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. We've been working with one company that has integrated their web-app with our existing POS, but there's a lot of bugs with some wonky workarounds that we aren't comfortable with. They've been developing new features for us for months at no cost due to their pandemic program, however it's just not up to our CEO's expectations. Now we're looking into switching to a completely new, modern POS that supposedly has a working order/pay from your device feature. Trouble is, the entire check has to be ordered (drinks, appetizers, entrees, desserts) all at once and paid for before it even gets sent to the kitchen. This is what the other company we've been working with has been trying to set up for us - guest sits down, scans the QR on their phone, orders at their own pace and checks out whenever they're ready - this is how our restaurant has been set up from day 1. We previously had iPads with a custom iOS app that the guests could order from. Our CEO believes this won't be an acceptable system moving forward as shared iPads aren't seen as sanitary as personal phones.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > Our CEO refuses to open, even for takeout, until our dining experience is seamless. The trouble is is that nowhere has a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. Having spent significant time in the Industry, in both Europe and the US, I honestly think this is exactly what will give Ghost Kitchens the edge over the traditional dine-in places.
    - burgreblast 6y ago
      >a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. (disclaimer: founder) Yes, this is literally what Zerocontact does. Contactless waitlist, menu, order, pay. Hybrid ordering so staff and guests can add items to one check. Fully supports courses. Add dessert at the end of th meal. Still, the customer has one check to pay (apple pay or google pay, or CC). We may even support your legacy POS or you can use ZC in standalone mode. It's a full order-management system for contactless on prem and off prem dining.
- devmunchies 6y ago
  What's the QR code for? The site generates a QR code after you order for you to scan when picking up the food?
  - maccard 6y ago
    There's a qr code on the door or the table with a link to the menu that you view on your phone!
  - notagoodidea 6y ago
    If it is the same that other restaurants I know, you scan the QR code to access the web page with the menu of the restaurant.
  - ipince 6y ago
    The QR code is just a url that points to the menu, so you can load it on your phone.
  - eps 6y ago
    No, just opens a webpage with the menu. So not to need physical menus, due to Covid.
- jrott 6y ago
  The very short menu is an interesting change as well. It makes sense in a couple of ways I think. First it signals that they've really thought about what you should have and that they are super practiced at making it. Second it makes things cheaper and operationally simpler for the restaurant. I'm not sure which of those is a bigger deal.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - apacheCamel 6y ago
    I fully agree. I'm also very indecisive at times so it helps when I only have a few options haha.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    There's diminishing returns when you cook the same thing over and over. People that are excellent cooks on round 1 aren't going to be a whole lot better on round 500 than they are on round 100. Also, they often rotate the short menu. It's about efficiency.
- vharuck 6y ago
  If you went to higher-class restaurants, small menus are the norm. I'm no expert, and my wife only has a culinary degree from 10 years ago gathering dust, but some possible reasons: - A smaller menu lets the chefs focus on learning to make those dishes at the expected level of quality. These items also usually require more skill and knowledge to just be passable. - It's not so much that fancy places have small menus, as it is that non-fancy restaurants can have bigger menus. Their kitchens can have an assembly-line style that optimizes simplicity and time, letting them hire cheap cooks. When every dish is "throw each part in the oven/fryer/pot, wait 10 minutes, put on plate," adding 50 dishes doesn't put as much strain on the cooks.
  - cheerlessbog 6y ago
    I assume that budget restaurants with large menus make heavy use of freezer and microwave. So a short menu is usually a good sign.
    - azepoi 6y ago
      Yes you can't have a very large menu with fresh seasonal ingredients.
    - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
      They're just Sysco resellers... the second highest margin items on menus are desserts, which are almost always Sysco microwave desserts or similiar preps.
mrmonkeyman 6y ago
The QR shit is annoying. I'm young, but having to keep picking up our phones to look at menus and getting distracted by them is exactly why I go to a restaurant in the first place: human experience. Purely consuming food can be done at home. Also, my wife's phone was low on battery so we were on a clock. This sucked. They had batteries but no cables for an Android phone.
cik2e 6y ago
I am loving the QR menus, especially ones that offer check out. For one thing, I almost always feel compelled to go wash my hands after ordering, since menus are known to be some of the most germ ridden things out there. Besides that though, restaurants could do some many cool things with this. For example, it would be trivial to offer photos of every dish. The next level could be item-item recommendations (people who order X, also like Y).
- jt2190 6y ago
  My wife always insists that we not handle any of our cutlery until we’re finished handling the menu and we’ve either used hand sanitizer or washed our hands. [1] Unfortunately, mobile phones are also notoriously dirty [2], so we still wash after handling those as well. [1] “Slideshow: The Germiest things in restaurants: #2 Menus“ https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/ss/slideshow-germy-restaurant https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/ss/slidesh... [2] “ Nasty Bugs Lurking on Your Cell Phone” https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20111014/nasty-bugs-lurking-on-your-cell-phone https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20111014/nasty-bugs...
dugmartin 6y ago
The reverse z order mentioned in the article confirms what a friend of my wife who ran marketing for a regional chain said: the top right item on the first page will be the highest margin dish, normally pasta. For years I would look and she was almost always right.
- mycall 6y ago
  Is this true in Japan or China where reading direction changes?
  - sn7408 6y ago
    In Mainland China reading direction is mostly left to right, top to bottom now, just like in most European/American countries. I should go and see if the top right menu item is the one with the highest margins.
    - mycall 6y ago
      Interesting phenomenon how western knowledge and machinery has caused a shift in their reading methods.
      - rtx 6y ago
        Its not really western, it was born in Asia.
      - knolax 6y ago
        Only if by "western knowledge" you mean Communist Internationalism and its associated obsession with conformity. The change to left to right horizontal wasn't a natural development, it was forcibly imposed during the 20th century by communists. Given a choice people still prefer vertical (most novels and manga outside the mainland are still typeset vertically). It also has nothing to do with "technology". The first Japanese typewriter used vertical typesetting[0], websites in the Mongolian script use vertical typesetting[1]. It's sad to see people use technology to justify a global monoculture. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_typewriter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_typewriter [1] http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writmongol/websitesinmongolbichig.html http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writmongol/websitesinmongolbi...
leetrout 6y ago
Three chain menus I hate: Cheesecake Factory Bonefish Maggianos (really, a pocket pull out?)
- duskwuff 6y ago
  Cheesecake Factory's menu is a monument to excess. It's ridiculous. But, then again, so is the rest of the restaurant.
  - kevindong 6y ago
    It's a guilty pleasure masquerading as an experience for me.
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
    TFA calls out Cheesecake Factory's menu directly: the goal is for patrons to get confused, ask the server what to get, and let the server direct them to more expensive/higher margin options.
supernova87a 6y ago
On the opposite side of the spectrum, I love the (rarely-found) type of restaurant where you enter, and they start serving you food where you have no choice in the matter. Like some family joint in the middle of nowhere that people go to for what they know will exactly be served, as if at home. Of course, that's probably out the window after all this settles down. Those types of restaurants are probably highly likely to fold. By the way, here's a funny parody of "every trendy restaurant menu": https://www.eater.com/2014/7/24/6181765/heres-what-every-trendy-restaurant-menu-looks-like https://www.eater.com/2014/7/24/6181765/heres-what-every-tre...
- chendragon 6y ago
  This works well for me if the price is known in the beginning, but it probably necessarily varies. Perhaps itdoesn't matter in fine dining contects tho.
- Swizec 6y ago
  Isn’t this how high end michelin restaurants work? You sit down, eat the chef’s daily menu, and drop a few hundred dollars per person. You are there for the art of it and you trust the chef’s choice.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I believe it’s pretty common for prix fixe meals, or you’ll get a very narrow set of options.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Ideally yes, although I think they end up cooking for the guide rather than their own tastes. There is a possibly apocryphal story that Marco Pierre White was once asked for a plate of Chips, so he hand cooked them and charged the diner something like £100 for his time.
  - dan-robertson 6y ago
    It happens in some. I think I read it was more popular in the 90s (at least in France) to have a single daily menu. Nowadays it is more likely there would be vegetarian or vegan options even if there is still a “single” menu. Plenty of places will have some set menus and also let people order à la carte
29athrowaway 6y ago
Having a separate menu for alcohol will be appreciated by dealing with alcoholism. I do not suffer from alcoholism but I have met people dealing with it.
vmception 6y ago
In San Francisco everywhere has QR codes and the same format. I've had wine and charcuterie: food and separate drink menu on two different QR codes. It's not perfect, many times the checkout system is haphazard, doesn't make use of Apple Pay or anything built into the phone. Requires user to input their table number into the checkout process.
user5994461 6y ago
One thing I do not miss since not going to restaurant, not having to pick between ten items on the menu and trying to figure out how much the service charge will be.
woshea901 6y ago
I need this for my saas business!
phonypc 6y ago
This mostly rings hollow based on my experience as a diner and chef. The menu graphics especially; I read boxes last if at all, the most expensive item at every place I've worked sells quite well, unusual ingredients and dishes don't sell well, and why on Earth would I read the right side of a folding menu first?
rawoke083600 6y ago
The "change" I want to see in the world of menus is this: List desserts in order of size ! Biggest to smallest. Usually desserts are such a rip-off at restaurants, but when I do indulge, I want the biggest :)
chadash 6y ago
> The underlying reasons for this are financial: Restaurants can’t bother with low-margin dishes. They have fewer employees on the payroll, so they want to be more efficient with a smaller set of meals. They’re prioritizing fewer — and cheaper — ingredients. I’m sure they are thinking about margins, but more generally, I think the issue is probably one of volume. If you have 25% as many people, maybe you remove unpopular items from the menu so that you aren’t ordering ingredients for them. For example, I have no idea whether oysters are high margin or not, but I suspect that people aren’t ordering them much for take out, so it doesn’t make sense to have them on the menu.
- coredog64 6y ago
  To expand on this a bit, multiple people in the business have told me that you can’t really buy much that only goes into one entree. So if you’re buying breaded chicken, it’s the same thing for your salads, your sandwiches/wraps, and any plated item. If one menu item isn’t moving, you can use your inventory on the others. Obviously there are exceptions: Burger joints don’t need to do this with hamburger patties. Or you may buy a limited quantity of something you’re 100% sure is going to sell.
seumars 6y ago
Embarrassing reading. I find it hard to believe there's a "science" to menu design that has its own "experts" who don't mention a thing about typography or graphic design. The Z pattern is simply related to the language the menu is set, which for languages of latin origin (and obviously many others) is left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Adding boxes for attention does the opposite most of the time because people will read text in that same fashion. Meaning that if you place a box between two text blocks, it's easier to jump over the box and continue reading the block below than having to find the (now indented) first line inside the box and then having to find the first line of the block below once again. The box breaks the pattern your eyes have been following up to that point. And on, and on, and on...
overcast 6y ago
Minimalist menus would be the best thing to happen to most of restaurants. My favorite places are single page , single sided, list of perfected dishes. Especially the ones that change it up every couple of weeks. Less is more. I suggest anyone interested in that concept read "The Paradox of Choice". Too many options leads people to be overwhelmed and miserable by their choices.
- AtlasBarfed 6y ago
  The problem is people are picky, and in groups the effective pickiness increases. So the bigger menus were likely to address dad, mom, teen, and kiddo. If a restaurant is just going to make four or five dishes, it starts getting perilously close to places like Chipotle.
  - overcast 6y ago
    Those picky people end up ordering the same exact thing off of every menu. Keep that as one of your ten options. Satisfy the boring people, and provide better service to people with some culture.
    - wisty 6y ago
      The book Freakanomics mentions that Westerners in groups tend to avoid picking the same thing to avoid looking too conformist (and the last people to pick are unhappy with their choice because they were railroaded into getting something odd like the Filet of Fish just to show they're their own person) while Asians tend to try to follow the herd even if it is not what they'd rather have.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - knolax 6y ago
      > and provide better service to people with some culture If it's uncultured to know what you want to eat then call me a savage.
unreal37 6y ago
> Restaurants are investing heavily in QR codes. Investing heavily in them? What does that even mean? QR codes are free. I haven't seen one relating to restaurants menu items, in my life.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  It feels to me like QR codes for public use have completely died. They exploded about 5 years ago while people would just scan marketing posters for the gimmick of scanning a qr code but I doubt anyone does that anymore.
  - EE84M3i 6y ago
    A lot of people in the US don't even know how to scan a QR code, and for the longest time (maybe still now?) the most popular mobile phone OSes didn't come with a built-in scanner.
    - nradov 6y ago
      The last several generations of Samsung phones have had QR code scanning built into the camera app.
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      From what I can tell, Android can't by default and iOS can but I think its disabled by default.
      - astura 6y ago
        My pixel can scan qr codes by default through the camera
        Polylactic_acid 6y ago
        Ah interesting. I used a pixel for a while and I never knew that was a feature so I assume most users don't either.
cascom 6y ago
I was at a restaurant in Houston and they ordered the dishes in each section by size (I.e. the appetizers started with the smallest dish and worked their way up in size)
cascom 6y ago
The unfortunate fact is that if you’re a restaurant owner (putting aside ultra high-end for the moment) if you want to increase revenue, you can either turn tables faster or increase the check size, if you raise prices people either want higher quality or better value - quality tends to be lower margin, so restaurants usually opt for value (bigger portions)...which is not the best for our waistlines
kevindong 6y ago
> Enlisting the magic number for items per food category. At fast-food joints, it’s 6; for snazzier joints, it’s 7 appetizers/desserts and 10 main courses. My first gut reaction to those stated prices was that the consultants hadn't adjusted their prices for inflation for at least a decade. But then I looked at the (current menu) prices of the restaurants I went to in college and also my hometown (both in low-cost parts of the Midwest). It was only then that I realized NYC has made me accustomed to much higher prices. Those numbers are substantially accurate in my college town and hometown. Meanwhile those numbers need to be adjusted upwards by 50-100% for NYC. EDIT: My skimming of the article was poor; the quote refers to number of items per category not price per item per category. My anecdote remains true though.
- tssva 6y ago
  Those are prices. Those are the number of items available in each category.
  - tssva 6y ago
    Typo in my comment. Should be, "Those aren't prices".
- x43b 6y ago
  I interpreted that part of the article as having nothing to do with prices. Instead it was 7 types of appetizer items or 10 entrees.
joshuaheard 6y ago
Making menus smaller is a good idea in general. Every restaurant rescue show I watch recommends this. However, there's a better idea for more profitability: make portions smaller.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Only if its a problem. There is an Asian resturant I go to which has 7 pages of menu and everything I have picked has been superb.
aaron695 6y ago
All these stories about "menu engineers", and probably this new profession seem to come from Menu Mind Games (2009) https://nymag.com/restaurants/features/62498/ https://nymag.com/restaurants/features/62498/
adatavizguy 6y ago
I wonder if the Cheesecake Factory and Applebees use A/B testing with their menus the same way Netflix uses A/B testing? There is probably a huge demand for data driven decision making for restaurants rather than these spares studies mentioned in the article which most likely are anecdotal. Simply have four different menus with the same items and look at the analytics provided by point of sale system. That is a fun start - up idea. Most of your favorite restaurants in places like San Francisco, Portland, and New York City engineer their menu by removing least popular menu items once a month or once a season and replace them with what they think their customers currently demand at a price to insure that the restaurant is running at the point of highest efficiency. There are other considerations such a cost of product but most restaurants increase overall demand by using analytics from the point of sale system and the most profitable dishes are not always the most popular. Engineering a kitchen -- and dining room for that matter -- to be efficient without cooks tripping over each other is another whole discussion nonetheless even this ties into what can be added to the menu. The two biggest mistakes an independent restaurant can make is hard coding a menu and putting the word in Bistro or Basserie in the restaurant name -- the restaurant can't evolve after that. Have any of you been to La Folie on Polk and Green in Russian Hill? That restaurant first opened as a casual French Bistro but the demand was for their caviar by the ounce and Tournedos Rossini which oddly enough was not only their most popular menu item but also not on the menu. So in the mid nineties the average customer was spending $150 - $300 instead of $40 per person.
- alexpotato 6y ago
  > I wonder if the Cheesecake Factory and Applebees use A/B testing with their menus the same way Netflix uses A/B testing? This article from Atul Gawande would lead me to believe that they(Cheesecake Factory) have probably tried it: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/08/13/big-med https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/08/13/big-med They even have revenue forecasting models that take into account: weather, time of year, holidays etc and that article is from 2012. PS I highly recommend that article for both the medicine to restaurant comparisons and the parallels one can draw to complicated systems in general like IT.
rhacker 6y ago
It's not a bad idea. I mean, you still see these long lines at In'n Out, and it's funny because they're all buying the exact same item. We'll there's maybe 2 possible main courses, but by and large it's people buying different toppings of a cheeseburger and fries. That business model probably did well for McDonalds when they first opened their doors. All of these restaurants have that identity too. Wendy's - Square Burgers Carl's Jr. Double Western Bacon IHop - Stack of cakes I mean it's very reasonable for most restaurants to take this time to go back to identity restaurants instead of catering to the picky people, which, let's be honest, are the ones that stopped eating out when Covid hit.
wombatmobile 6y ago
Under "capitalism", the aim of menu design is to maximise profits for the restaurant owner. Imagine a system that maximises the health and happiness of patrons, the enjoyment and satisfaction of work by employees, and the sustainability of the business. The people who build it will need more than menu design.
jinushaun 6y ago
This article perfectly describes the types of menu that I loath to see at restaurants. It’s not an exaggeration when I say I always complain about these menus in person whenever I encounter them because I find them so hard to read. But question is… do these gimmicks subconsciously still work on me?

223 points by Anon84 6y ago

I just got back from a trip to Las Vegas and every single restaurant we went to had a QR code + online menu. Now, I am not sure if it was related to the reasoning stated here, but all the menus were also very short, with only a few items each. Personally, I was quite happy to view the menu on my phone. I know for a fact though my parents and grandparents would have hated such a thing.

vmception 6y ago
In San Francisco everywhere has QR codes and the same format. Had wine and charcuterie: food and separate drink menu on two different QR codes. It's not perfect, many times the checkout system is haphazard, doesn't make use of Apple Pay or anything built into the phone. Requires user to input their table number into the checkout process. Or its just a surrogate for normal waiter / server experience and they come up to you eventually (which is fine). People all seem willing to tolerate the experience, and all the older luddites and technophobes are still in their prepper bunkers or just not in the city. Interesting how much the last decade of technology and proliferation has prepared us for this. QR codes, mobile phones, highly available high speed internet. Just going back 10 years in many major cities, even San Francisco and New York, this would have been much much worse to adjust to.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >all the older luddites and technophobes are still in their prepper bunkers Lose the name calling here please.
  - vmception 6y ago
    okay what are the non-derogatory but also accurate words here? I am aiming to use language to convey a message for: "a person opposed to new technology or ways of working." and "a person who fears, dislikes, or avoids new technology." which is literally a copy and paste job from the definitions on google. They are older than the people going out. edit: ahhh if that one irreconcilable line dilutes my message for people here I don't really care enough about this conversation to placate whoever that got the attention of. I added to the discussion maybe others have a relatable experience. Moving on.
    - rolph 6y ago
      they are called customers, or diners, also called people or persons
- rhino369 6y ago
  Phone menus I’ve seen so far are inferior to a good paper menu. I’d rather have a scanned pdf than the menus I’ve seen. I’m sure someone could create one that is usable, but I haven’t run into one yet.
  - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
    Which is maddening with transitions and zoom in/zoom out.
- cutoff 6y ago
  My restaurant has been trying to implement a contactless ordering & checkout system since the initial shutdown in CA back in March. Our CEO refuses to open, even for takeout, until our dining experience is seamless. The trouble is is that nowhere has a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. We've been working with one company that has integrated their web-app with our existing POS, but there's a lot of bugs with some wonky workarounds that we aren't comfortable with. They've been developing new features for us for months at no cost due to their pandemic program, however it's just not up to our CEO's expectations. Now we're looking into switching to a completely new, modern POS that supposedly has a working order/pay from your device feature. Trouble is, the entire check has to be ordered (drinks, appetizers, entrees, desserts) all at once and paid for before it even gets sent to the kitchen. This is what the other company we've been working with has been trying to set up for us - guest sits down, scans the QR on their phone, orders at their own pace and checks out whenever they're ready - this is how our restaurant has been set up from day 1. We previously had iPads with a custom iOS app that the guests could order from. Our CEO believes this won't be an acceptable system moving forward as shared iPads aren't seen as sanitary as personal phones.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Our CEO refuses to open, even for takeout, until our dining experience is seamless. The trouble is is that nowhere has a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. Having spent significant time in the Industry, in both Europe and the US, I honestly think this is exactly what will give Ghost Kitchens the edge over the traditional dine-in places.
  - burgreblast 6y ago
    >a completely seamless order-and-pay-from-your-phone system because it doesn't exist. (disclaimer: founder) Yes, this is literally what Zerocontact does. Contactless waitlist, menu, order, pay. Hybrid ordering so staff and guests can add items to one check. Fully supports courses. Add dessert at the end of th meal. Still, the customer has one check to pay (apple pay or google pay, or CC). We may even support your legacy POS or you can use ZC in standalone mode. It's a full order-management system for contactless on prem and off prem dining.
devmunchies 6y ago
What's the QR code for? The site generates a QR code after you order for you to scan when picking up the food?
- maccard 6y ago
  There's a qr code on the door or the table with a link to the menu that you view on your phone!
- notagoodidea 6y ago
  If it is the same that other restaurants I know, you scan the QR code to access the web page with the menu of the restaurant.
- ipince 6y ago
  The QR code is just a url that points to the menu, so you can load it on your phone.
- eps 6y ago
  No, just opens a webpage with the menu. So not to need physical menus, due to Covid.
jrott 6y ago
The very short menu is an interesting change as well. It makes sense in a couple of ways I think. First it signals that they've really thought about what you should have and that they are super practiced at making it. Second it makes things cheaper and operationally simpler for the restaurant. I'm not sure which of those is a bigger deal.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- apacheCamel 6y ago
  I fully agree. I'm also very indecisive at times so it helps when I only have a few options haha.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  There's diminishing returns when you cook the same thing over and over. People that are excellent cooks on round 1 aren't going to be a whole lot better on round 500 than they are on round 100. Also, they often rotate the short menu. It's about efficiency.
vharuck 6y ago
If you went to higher-class restaurants, small menus are the norm. I'm no expert, and my wife only has a culinary degree from 10 years ago gathering dust, but some possible reasons: - A smaller menu lets the chefs focus on learning to make those dishes at the expected level of quality. These items also usually require more skill and knowledge to just be passable. - It's not so much that fancy places have small menus, as it is that non-fancy restaurants can have bigger menus. Their kitchens can have an assembly-line style that optimizes simplicity and time, letting them hire cheap cooks. When every dish is "throw each part in the oven/fryer/pot, wait 10 minutes, put on plate," adding 50 dishes doesn't put as much strain on the cooks.
- cheerlessbog 6y ago
  I assume that budget restaurants with large menus make heavy use of freezer and microwave. So a short menu is usually a good sign.
  - azepoi 6y ago
    Yes you can't have a very large menu with fresh seasonal ingredients.
  - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
    They're just Sysco resellers... the second highest margin items on menus are desserts, which are almost always Sysco microwave desserts or similiar preps.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago

The QR shit is annoying. I'm young, but having to keep picking up our phones to look at menus and getting distracted by them is exactly why I go to a restaurant in the first place: human experience. Purely consuming food can be done at home. Also, my wife's phone was low on battery so we were on a clock. This sucked. They had batteries but no cables for an Android phone.

cik2e 6y ago

I am loving the QR menus, especially ones that offer check out. For one thing, I almost always feel compelled to go wash my hands after ordering, since menus are known to be some of the most germ ridden things out there. Besides that though, restaurants could do some many cool things with this. For example, it would be trivial to offer photos of every dish. The next level could be item-item recommendations (people who order X, also like Y).

jt2190 6y ago
My wife always insists that we not handle any of our cutlery until we’re finished handling the menu and we’ve either used hand sanitizer or washed our hands. [1] Unfortunately, mobile phones are also notoriously dirty [2], so we still wash after handling those as well. [1] “Slideshow: The Germiest things in restaurants: #2 Menus“ https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/ss/slideshow-germy-restaurant https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/ss/slidesh... [2] “ Nasty Bugs Lurking on Your Cell Phone” https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20111014/nasty-bugs-lurking-on-your-cell-phone https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20111014/nasty-bugs...

dugmartin 6y ago

The reverse z order mentioned in the article confirms what a friend of my wife who ran marketing for a regional chain said: the top right item on the first page will be the highest margin dish, normally pasta. For years I would look and she was almost always right.

mycall 6y ago
Is this true in Japan or China where reading direction changes?
- sn7408 6y ago
  In Mainland China reading direction is mostly left to right, top to bottom now, just like in most European/American countries. I should go and see if the top right menu item is the one with the highest margins.
  - mycall 6y ago
    Interesting phenomenon how western knowledge and machinery has caused a shift in their reading methods.
    - rtx 6y ago
      Its not really western, it was born in Asia.
    - knolax 6y ago
      Only if by "western knowledge" you mean Communist Internationalism and its associated obsession with conformity. The change to left to right horizontal wasn't a natural development, it was forcibly imposed during the 20th century by communists. Given a choice people still prefer vertical (most novels and manga outside the mainland are still typeset vertically). It also has nothing to do with "technology". The first Japanese typewriter used vertical typesetting[0], websites in the Mongolian script use vertical typesetting[1]. It's sad to see people use technology to justify a global monoculture. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_typewriter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_typewriter [1] http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writmongol/websitesinmongolbichig.html http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writmongol/websitesinmongolbi...

leetrout 6y ago

Three chain menus I hate: Cheesecake Factory Bonefish Maggianos (really, a pocket pull out?)

duskwuff 6y ago
Cheesecake Factory's menu is a monument to excess. It's ridiculous. But, then again, so is the rest of the restaurant.
- kevindong 6y ago
  It's a guilty pleasure masquerading as an experience for me.
- InitialLastName 6y ago
  TFA calls out Cheesecake Factory's menu directly: the goal is for patrons to get confused, ask the server what to get, and let the server direct them to more expensive/higher margin options.

supernova87a 6y ago

On the opposite side of the spectrum, I love the (rarely-found) type of restaurant where you enter, and they start serving you food where you have no choice in the matter. Like some family joint in the middle of nowhere that people go to for what they know will exactly be served, as if at home. Of course, that's probably out the window after all this settles down. Those types of restaurants are probably highly likely to fold. By the way, here's a funny parody of "every trendy restaurant menu": https://www.eater.com/2014/7/24/6181765/heres-what-every-trendy-restaurant-menu-looks-like https://www.eater.com/2014/7/24/6181765/heres-what-every-tre...

chendragon 6y ago
This works well for me if the price is known in the beginning, but it probably necessarily varies. Perhaps itdoesn't matter in fine dining contects tho.
Swizec 6y ago
Isn’t this how high end michelin restaurants work? You sit down, eat the chef’s daily menu, and drop a few hundred dollars per person. You are there for the art of it and you trust the chef’s choice.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I believe it’s pretty common for prix fixe meals, or you’ll get a very narrow set of options.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Ideally yes, although I think they end up cooking for the guide rather than their own tastes. There is a possibly apocryphal story that Marco Pierre White was once asked for a plate of Chips, so he hand cooked them and charged the diner something like £100 for his time.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  It happens in some. I think I read it was more popular in the 90s (at least in France) to have a single daily menu. Nowadays it is more likely there would be vegetarian or vegan options even if there is still a “single” menu. Plenty of places will have some set menus and also let people order à la carte

29athrowaway 6y ago

Having a separate menu for alcohol will be appreciated by dealing with alcoholism. I do not suffer from alcoholism but I have met people dealing with it.

vmception 6y ago

In San Francisco everywhere has QR codes and the same format. I've had wine and charcuterie: food and separate drink menu on two different QR codes. It's not perfect, many times the checkout system is haphazard, doesn't make use of Apple Pay or anything built into the phone. Requires user to input their table number into the checkout process.

user5994461 6y ago

One thing I do not miss since not going to restaurant, not having to pick between ten items on the menu and trying to figure out how much the service charge will be.

woshea901 6y ago

I need this for my saas business!

phonypc 6y ago

This mostly rings hollow based on my experience as a diner and chef. The menu graphics especially; I read boxes last if at all, the most expensive item at every place I've worked sells quite well, unusual ingredients and dishes don't sell well, and why on Earth would I read the right side of a folding menu first?

rawoke083600 6y ago

The "change" I want to see in the world of menus is this: List desserts in order of size ! Biggest to smallest. Usually desserts are such a rip-off at restaurants, but when I do indulge, I want the biggest :)

chadash 6y ago

> The underlying reasons for this are financial: Restaurants can’t bother with low-margin dishes. They have fewer employees on the payroll, so they want to be more efficient with a smaller set of meals. They’re prioritizing fewer — and cheaper — ingredients. I’m sure they are thinking about margins, but more generally, I think the issue is probably one of volume. If you have 25% as many people, maybe you remove unpopular items from the menu so that you aren’t ordering ingredients for them. For example, I have no idea whether oysters are high margin or not, but I suspect that people aren’t ordering them much for take out, so it doesn’t make sense to have them on the menu.

coredog64 6y ago
To expand on this a bit, multiple people in the business have told me that you can’t really buy much that only goes into one entree. So if you’re buying breaded chicken, it’s the same thing for your salads, your sandwiches/wraps, and any plated item. If one menu item isn’t moving, you can use your inventory on the others. Obviously there are exceptions: Burger joints don’t need to do this with hamburger patties. Or you may buy a limited quantity of something you’re 100% sure is going to sell.

seumars 6y ago

Embarrassing reading. I find it hard to believe there's a "science" to menu design that has its own "experts" who don't mention a thing about typography or graphic design. The Z pattern is simply related to the language the menu is set, which for languages of latin origin (and obviously many others) is left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Adding boxes for attention does the opposite most of the time because people will read text in that same fashion. Meaning that if you place a box between two text blocks, it's easier to jump over the box and continue reading the block below than having to find the (now indented) first line inside the box and then having to find the first line of the block below once again. The box breaks the pattern your eyes have been following up to that point. And on, and on, and on...

overcast 6y ago

Minimalist menus would be the best thing to happen to most of restaurants. My favorite places are single page , single sided, list of perfected dishes. Especially the ones that change it up every couple of weeks. Less is more. I suggest anyone interested in that concept read "The Paradox of Choice". Too many options leads people to be overwhelmed and miserable by their choices.

AtlasBarfed 6y ago
The problem is people are picky, and in groups the effective pickiness increases. So the bigger menus were likely to address dad, mom, teen, and kiddo. If a restaurant is just going to make four or five dishes, it starts getting perilously close to places like Chipotle.
- overcast 6y ago
  Those picky people end up ordering the same exact thing off of every menu. Keep that as one of your ten options. Satisfy the boring people, and provide better service to people with some culture.
  - wisty 6y ago
    The book Freakanomics mentions that Westerners in groups tend to avoid picking the same thing to avoid looking too conformist (and the last people to pick are unhappy with their choice because they were railroaded into getting something odd like the Filet of Fish just to show they're their own person) while Asians tend to try to follow the herd even if it is not what they'd rather have.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - knolax 6y ago
    > and provide better service to people with some culture If it's uncultured to know what you want to eat then call me a savage.

unreal37 6y ago

> Restaurants are investing heavily in QR codes. Investing heavily in them? What does that even mean? QR codes are free. I haven't seen one relating to restaurants menu items, in my life.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
It feels to me like QR codes for public use have completely died. They exploded about 5 years ago while people would just scan marketing posters for the gimmick of scanning a qr code but I doubt anyone does that anymore.
- EE84M3i 6y ago
  A lot of people in the US don't even know how to scan a QR code, and for the longest time (maybe still now?) the most popular mobile phone OSes didn't come with a built-in scanner.
  - nradov 6y ago
    The last several generations of Samsung phones have had QR code scanning built into the camera app.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    From what I can tell, Android can't by default and iOS can but I think its disabled by default.
    - astura 6y ago
      My pixel can scan qr codes by default through the camera
      - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
        Ah interesting. I used a pixel for a while and I never knew that was a feature so I assume most users don't either.

cascom 6y ago

I was at a restaurant in Houston and they ordered the dishes in each section by size (I.e. the appetizers started with the smallest dish and worked their way up in size)

cascom 6y ago

The unfortunate fact is that if you’re a restaurant owner (putting aside ultra high-end for the moment) if you want to increase revenue, you can either turn tables faster or increase the check size, if you raise prices people either want higher quality or better value - quality tends to be lower margin, so restaurants usually opt for value (bigger portions)...which is not the best for our waistlines

kevindong 6y ago

> Enlisting the magic number for items per food category. At fast-food joints, it’s 6; for snazzier joints, it’s 7 appetizers/desserts and 10 main courses. My first gut reaction to those stated prices was that the consultants hadn't adjusted their prices for inflation for at least a decade. But then I looked at the (current menu) prices of the restaurants I went to in college and also my hometown (both in low-cost parts of the Midwest). It was only then that I realized NYC has made me accustomed to much higher prices. Those numbers are substantially accurate in my college town and hometown. Meanwhile those numbers need to be adjusted upwards by 50-100% for NYC. EDIT: My skimming of the article was poor; the quote refers to number of items per category not price per item per category. My anecdote remains true though.

tssva 6y ago
Those are prices. Those are the number of items available in each category.
- tssva 6y ago
  Typo in my comment. Should be, "Those aren't prices".
x43b 6y ago
I interpreted that part of the article as having nothing to do with prices. Instead it was 7 types of appetizer items or 10 entrees.

joshuaheard 6y ago

Making menus smaller is a good idea in general. Every restaurant rescue show I watch recommends this. However, there's a better idea for more profitability: make portions smaller.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
Only if its a problem. There is an Asian resturant I go to which has 7 pages of menu and everything I have picked has been superb.

aaron695 6y ago

All these stories about "menu engineers", and probably this new profession seem to come from Menu Mind Games (2009) https://nymag.com/restaurants/features/62498/ https://nymag.com/restaurants/features/62498/

adatavizguy 6y ago

I wonder if the Cheesecake Factory and Applebees use A/B testing with their menus the same way Netflix uses A/B testing? There is probably a huge demand for data driven decision making for restaurants rather than these spares studies mentioned in the article which most likely are anecdotal. Simply have four different menus with the same items and look at the analytics provided by point of sale system. That is a fun start - up idea. Most of your favorite restaurants in places like San Francisco, Portland, and New York City engineer their menu by removing least popular menu items once a month or once a season and replace them with what they think their customers currently demand at a price to insure that the restaurant is running at the point of highest efficiency. There are other considerations such a cost of product but most restaurants increase overall demand by using analytics from the point of sale system and the most profitable dishes are not always the most popular. Engineering a kitchen -- and dining room for that matter -- to be efficient without cooks tripping over each other is another whole discussion nonetheless even this ties into what can be added to the menu. The two biggest mistakes an independent restaurant can make is hard coding a menu and putting the word in Bistro or Basserie in the restaurant name -- the restaurant can't evolve after that. Have any of you been to La Folie on Polk and Green in Russian Hill? That restaurant first opened as a casual French Bistro but the demand was for their caviar by the ounce and Tournedos Rossini which oddly enough was not only their most popular menu item but also not on the menu. So in the mid nineties the average customer was spending $150 - $300 instead of $40 per person.

alexpotato 6y ago
> I wonder if the Cheesecake Factory and Applebees use A/B testing with their menus the same way Netflix uses A/B testing? This article from Atul Gawande would lead me to believe that they(Cheesecake Factory) have probably tried it: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/08/13/big-med https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/08/13/big-med They even have revenue forecasting models that take into account: weather, time of year, holidays etc and that article is from 2012. PS I highly recommend that article for both the medicine to restaurant comparisons and the parallels one can draw to complicated systems in general like IT.

rhacker 6y ago

It's not a bad idea. I mean, you still see these long lines at In'n Out, and it's funny because they're all buying the exact same item. We'll there's maybe 2 possible main courses, but by and large it's people buying different toppings of a cheeseburger and fries. That business model probably did well for McDonalds when they first opened their doors. All of these restaurants have that identity too. Wendy's - Square Burgers Carl's Jr. Double Western Bacon IHop - Stack of cakes I mean it's very reasonable for most restaurants to take this time to go back to identity restaurants instead of catering to the picky people, which, let's be honest, are the ones that stopped eating out when Covid hit.

wombatmobile 6y ago

Under "capitalism", the aim of menu design is to maximise profits for the restaurant owner. Imagine a system that maximises the health and happiness of patrons, the enjoyment and satisfaction of work by employees, and the sustainability of the business. The people who build it will need more than menu design.

jinushaun 6y ago

This article perfectly describes the types of menu that I loath to see at restaurants. It’s not an exaggeration when I say I always complain about these menus in person whenever I encounter them because I find them so hard to read. But question is… do these gimmicks subconsciously still work on me?