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Hypothetically speaking, what would you see as the downside of Apple allowing users to install alternate app stores? Presumably almost every user would just us

Hypothetically speaking, what would you see as the downside of Apple allowing users to install alternate app stores? Presumably almost every user would just use Apple's app store and be satisfied with that, but for everyone else they'd be able to use their iPhone with much more freedom.

judge2020 6y ago
Depending on how it's installed (the two ends of the spectrum being either downloading other app stores via Apple's App Store or downloading them from safari) it can cause issues with how Apple's standard of "no malware" stays even when downloading apps via those app stores. For an example, with alternative app stores it's very likely you could release a jailbreak and have it installable without a computer since most (non-checkm8) jailbreaks break out of the sandbox and exploit their way to root access and installing an dpkg frontend. That's all well and good until someone does the same but hides jailbreak code in an inconspicuous app that initiates the jailbreak in the background, and instead of installing dpkg it installs a keylogger/keychain dumper that sends all passwords to a remote server. Either Apple will still need to review these, have IPAs notarized, or have contracts in place with each app store developer to ensure the same app review quality. I don't see epic accepting any of these scenarios without a fight.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  > Either Apple will still need to review these, have IPAs notarized, or have contracts in place with each app store developer to ensure the same app review quality. I don't see epic accepting any of these scenarios without a fight. As Windows shows us, none of these need to be true. Don’t download random shit from people you shouldn’t trust, and you won’t have malware and/or keyloggers.
  - Reelin 6y ago
    Ditto for Linux and Android. I'm sure I could find a sketchy closed source kernel module somewhere out there that's actually malware. That's not a problem in practice though because I'd have to leave the confines of the official repositories for my OS and intentionally seek it out. (I suppose NPM could be an interesting point of discussion here though.)
  - michaeldorian 6y ago
    "Don’t download random shit from people you shouldn’t trust, and you won’t have malware and/or keyloggers." If only it was that simple. Apple's audience is not really us. I can't count the number of times, my mother-in-law tried to install random stuff on her PC and me having to deal with it. This is Apple's user.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      Apple has 1.5 billion users. I’m fairly certain they don’t only target technically challenged people.
  - bekman 6y ago
    Tell this to the 99% non techie populations
- Reelin 6y ago
  In your scenario, there's malware in a non-apple app store. So what? It rightfully gets a bad reputation, people presumably avoid it, etc. Those who are more risk averse choose only to use the Apple app store. I'm not seeing the issue here? If Apple want's to ensure that the platform itself is as secure as possible, that involves patching the underlying vulnerabilities. The presence of a third party app store doesn't affect that one way or the other.
  - LexGray 6y ago
    How would mom know about the bad reputation? Download.com included toolbars with their installers (not a vulnerability, just shady) and only in rare blog articles were they called out on it. Multiple sites linked to them as a reputable download source for affiliate money.
    - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
      The same way she avoids more open ecosystems like android? Presumably, the addition of another app store would be something she would have to actively seek out and do.
- vaxman 6y ago
  THERE ARE COMPANIES BETTER THAN APPLE AT DETECTING MALWARE — THEY SHOULD BE CRYPTO-AUTHORIZED TO RUN OR SUPPORT ALTERNATE APPSTORES WITHOUT APPLE INVOLVEMENT. (sry for caps)
eanzenberg 6y ago
So we won’t need to install 50 app stores to get 50 different apps.
michaeldorian 6y ago
The downside is not for folks like us on here that can make decisions about what is good and what is bad. Apple has invested heavily in creating an experience where the common person with no mental model of how this stuff is relatively safe. The downside is Mom somehow installs said store, and said store distributes a poker game that does something malicious. Mom blames her iPhone as that's all she knows. She doesn't separate hardware from operating system and apps like we do.
- kokey 6y ago
  I got my mom an iPhone for this reason. Then she kept locking herself out of it by typing in the wrong password. She lives in an Android dominated country so asking for help around her had varied results, including having her phone wiped and icloud account replaced a few times. In the end I got her an Android phone of the same model as the people around her. When I saw her next I noticed her phone had adware on it. I didn't know adware was a thing on phones.
- _qulr 6y ago
  Let's talk about my mom. When her brother died, she inherited a Mac and an iPad from him. I helped my mom set up the Mac for her, and she was good to go the same day. Whereas she spent many months (it may have been a full year, I don't recall) in a battle with Apple to get them to allow her to erase and reinstall iOS on the device. She wasn't trying to get my uncle's data, she just wanted to use the iPad for herself. Apple wanted a death certificate and all kinds of legal crap. You don't own iOS devices, you're just paying an exorbitant rent.
DarkmSparks 6y ago
Main downside I see of Apple allowing users to install alternate app stores is that it could probably rescue them from the now tiny and still shrinking global market share they have. Surely better to just let them finish suiciding themselves? Personally I'll be sad to see them go, but judging by the number of comments that are encouraging them to continue on their current path (now single digit market share) I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are really thinking like this.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Like those companies at the edge of bankruptcy like Bang & Olufsen, Ferrari, Bentley, Lotus,.... with their shrinking target market, oh wait.
  - martin8412 6y ago
    Bang & Olufsen is actually constantly on the brink of bankruptcy, and has been for very long. I don't think it's been a super profitable company ever since LCD TVs became popular.
  - DarkmSparks 6y ago
    Apple have far too much cash to go bankrupt, bankruptcy requires debt that can't be repaid. But if they carry on their current trajectory they will be a target for a hostile take over by a bigger hitter like Huawei.
jpttsn 6y ago
Honestly? I want to pay up front for a device that won’t show me ads. If left to open competition, I’m certain that dozens of app stores would race to the bottom and I’d have an ad and snoop-funded experience on my phone. Apple currently uses their position to prevent this. Sure, it’s for their selfish reasons, but it’s good also for me.

judge2020 6y ago

Depending on how it's installed (the two ends of the spectrum being either downloading other app stores via Apple's App Store or downloading them from safari) it can cause issues with how Apple's standard of "no malware" stays even when downloading apps via those app stores. For an example, with alternative app stores it's very likely you could release a jailbreak and have it installable without a computer since most (non-checkm8) jailbreaks break out of the sandbox and exploit their way to root access and installing an dpkg frontend. That's all well and good until someone does the same but hides jailbreak code in an inconspicuous app that initiates the jailbreak in the background, and instead of installing dpkg it installs a keylogger/keychain dumper that sends all passwords to a remote server. Either Apple will still need to review these, have IPAs notarized, or have contracts in place with each app store developer to ensure the same app review quality. I don't see epic accepting any of these scenarios without a fight.

Aeolun 6y ago
> Either Apple will still need to review these, have IPAs notarized, or have contracts in place with each app store developer to ensure the same app review quality. I don't see epic accepting any of these scenarios without a fight. As Windows shows us, none of these need to be true. Don’t download random shit from people you shouldn’t trust, and you won’t have malware and/or keyloggers.
- Reelin 6y ago
  Ditto for Linux and Android. I'm sure I could find a sketchy closed source kernel module somewhere out there that's actually malware. That's not a problem in practice though because I'd have to leave the confines of the official repositories for my OS and intentionally seek it out. (I suppose NPM could be an interesting point of discussion here though.)
- michaeldorian 6y ago
  "Don’t download random shit from people you shouldn’t trust, and you won’t have malware and/or keyloggers." If only it was that simple. Apple's audience is not really us. I can't count the number of times, my mother-in-law tried to install random stuff on her PC and me having to deal with it. This is Apple's user.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    Apple has 1.5 billion users. I’m fairly certain they don’t only target technically challenged people.
- bekman 6y ago
  Tell this to the 99% non techie populations
Reelin 6y ago
In your scenario, there's malware in a non-apple app store. So what? It rightfully gets a bad reputation, people presumably avoid it, etc. Those who are more risk averse choose only to use the Apple app store. I'm not seeing the issue here? If Apple want's to ensure that the platform itself is as secure as possible, that involves patching the underlying vulnerabilities. The presence of a third party app store doesn't affect that one way or the other.
- LexGray 6y ago
  How would mom know about the bad reputation? Download.com included toolbars with their installers (not a vulnerability, just shady) and only in rare blog articles were they called out on it. Multiple sites linked to them as a reputable download source for affiliate money.
  - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
    The same way she avoids more open ecosystems like android? Presumably, the addition of another app store would be something she would have to actively seek out and do.
vaxman 6y ago
THERE ARE COMPANIES BETTER THAN APPLE AT DETECTING MALWARE — THEY SHOULD BE CRYPTO-AUTHORIZED TO RUN OR SUPPORT ALTERNATE APPSTORES WITHOUT APPLE INVOLVEMENT. (sry for caps)

eanzenberg 6y ago

So we won’t need to install 50 app stores to get 50 different apps.

michaeldorian 6y ago

The downside is not for folks like us on here that can make decisions about what is good and what is bad. Apple has invested heavily in creating an experience where the common person with no mental model of how this stuff is relatively safe. The downside is Mom somehow installs said store, and said store distributes a poker game that does something malicious. Mom blames her iPhone as that's all she knows. She doesn't separate hardware from operating system and apps like we do.

kokey 6y ago
I got my mom an iPhone for this reason. Then she kept locking herself out of it by typing in the wrong password. She lives in an Android dominated country so asking for help around her had varied results, including having her phone wiped and icloud account replaced a few times. In the end I got her an Android phone of the same model as the people around her. When I saw her next I noticed her phone had adware on it. I didn't know adware was a thing on phones.
_qulr 6y ago
Let's talk about my mom. When her brother died, she inherited a Mac and an iPad from him. I helped my mom set up the Mac for her, and she was good to go the same day. Whereas she spent many months (it may have been a full year, I don't recall) in a battle with Apple to get them to allow her to erase and reinstall iOS on the device. She wasn't trying to get my uncle's data, she just wanted to use the iPad for herself. Apple wanted a death certificate and all kinds of legal crap. You don't own iOS devices, you're just paying an exorbitant rent.

DarkmSparks 6y ago

Main downside I see of Apple allowing users to install alternate app stores is that it could probably rescue them from the now tiny and still shrinking global market share they have. Surely better to just let them finish suiciding themselves? Personally I'll be sad to see them go, but judging by the number of comments that are encouraging them to continue on their current path (now single digit market share) I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are really thinking like this.

pjmlp 6y ago
Like those companies at the edge of bankruptcy like Bang & Olufsen, Ferrari, Bentley, Lotus,.... with their shrinking target market, oh wait.
- martin8412 6y ago
  Bang & Olufsen is actually constantly on the brink of bankruptcy, and has been for very long. I don't think it's been a super profitable company ever since LCD TVs became popular.
- DarkmSparks 6y ago
  Apple have far too much cash to go bankrupt, bankruptcy requires debt that can't be repaid. But if they carry on their current trajectory they will be a target for a hostile take over by a bigger hitter like Huawei.

jpttsn 6y ago

Honestly? I want to pay up front for a device that won’t show me ads. If left to open competition, I’m certain that dozens of app stores would race to the bottom and I’d have an ad and snoop-funded experience on my phone. Apple currently uses their position to prevent this. Sure, it’s for their selfish reasons, but it’s good also for me.