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Facebook says Apple blocked it from informing about App Store 30% fee
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoThis is really why the law should come down like a ton of bricks on Apple. They aren't just bleeding everyone dry, they're also trying to prevent people from realizing Apple is doing it.
- chj 6y agoSadly, they don't even know what's better for themselves any more.
- conductr 6y agoPushing the limits because really there are none
- olliej 6y agoFB, etc get the use of Apple's infrastructure, they get the benefits of apple providing updates to hardware for 5 years without charging consumers. That shit costs money, whether it costs 30% I don't know, but given that seems to be in the order of the charges of every other store (what % of sale price do companies get on retail sales?). The problem here is a bunch of companies have decided that they want special rules for themselves that don't include paying for services that they benefit from. Any iOS device apple sells has 5 years of ongoing costs - software support, service upkeep, etc. Google's store doesn't have the update and software maintenance costs, and the actual hardware sellers have demonstrate no interest in taking them on, so it's clearly not free. In fact google charges 30% on everything as well, but also makes money from all of the surveillance they have on the platform (after all, spying is how google makes its money). Put very simply. Apple makes a profit from a sale of hardware when the user buys a new device. That's it. They continue to support that hardware for 5 years. Google makes profit from every android device as long as that device is being used. If you buy a second hand android device then that device continues to generate revenue for google. Despite this google charges the same commission/rent as apple.
- bpodgursky 6y agoFacebook was setting up a marketplace for paid digital events: > On Friday, the social media giant claimed that Apple rejected the inclusion of a warning that the latter company would take 30% of sales in a paid-online events feature Facebook is rolling out in an update of its app. Do you really think Apple provided 30% of the value of the event -- created and hosted by someone else, organized by Facebook? There's a point at which Apple is not responsible for creating the entire economy, even if parts of it incidentally touch OSX. Like, this is functionally no different than the web browser OSX is providing -- but Apple has decided that because it touches the App store, they deserve a ton of flesh.
- cma 6y ago> they get the benefits of apple providing updates to hardware for 5 years without charging consumers. Apple's updates included things like intentionally slowing down old phones without notifying users of what was going on, instead of encouraging a cheap battery replacement.
- cellar_door 6y agoIn-app payment processing is absolutely not worth a 30% fee. In a normal, competitive environment, Stripe and Paypal charge 3% + $0.30.
- olliej 6y agothe vast majority of that 3% is the CC company rate, and that's not going to stripe. Which means that stripe is making 30c + maybe some tiny additional amount per transaction. Their hardware PoS devices cost money and/or rent, so they make a profit there. The distribution cost for their app is covered by amazon. Which means that their remaining per transaction cost is the cost of the payment details which is presumably in the order of 1kb, which I'm fairly sure is in the fraction of cents realm.
- FractalParadigm 6y ago> In fact google charges 30% on everything as well The difference here being, I can install any app, from anywhere onto my Android device, without modifying it any way past changing one setting. In fact there are several non-Google app stores you can install, which charge either significantly less or nothing at all to the developer. There simply is no analogue for iPhone or iPad without jailbreaking, something that ultimately creates more headaches than it solves. For all intents and purposes, Apple holds a monopoly on marketing and distribution with regards to iOS apps, something no other device or software manufacturer is currently doing.
- kfichter 6y agoSeems like a surprisingly lazy political play from Facebook.
- sigzero 6y agoExactly. I actually do not believe FB on this.
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- polotics 6y agoDo you mean to say Apple is not taking 30% and Apple is not admitting this is an unacceptably high fee by trying to prevent FB from informing its users about it?
- kfichter 6y agoNot that I agree with Apple, just feels like a weak PR campaign.
- pandler 6y agoAgreed. With the very little context from the source article (admittedly), it feels like piling on to the whole Epic controversy.
- robjan 6y agoAs a community we don't have to resort to automatically criticising Facebook even when they are morally in the right
- olliej 6y agoHow big is each FB update? I recall they used to be hundreds of mbs, multiple times a week, times a hundred million or whatever users. I don't think that's free.
- etimberg 6y agoIt’s almost like Apple are trying to become the villain.
- judge2020 6y agoIt's been like this since the beginning. Only now has Epic Games (along with slight pressure from the antitrust hearings) created the perfect PR storm to get the spotlight on Apple's practices.
- kranner 6y agoRelevant (about "Sherlocking"): https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/06/06/developers-talk-about-being-sherlocked-as-apple-uses-them-for-market-research https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/06/06/developers-talk-a...
- sidibe 6y agoNow that everyone has smart phones and phone lifetimes seem to be growing not shrinking (good job Apple) the only way for them to grow their revenue is raising the price of phones (which they've slowed down on) or "services" which are essentially milking everyone using their platform.
- baddox 6y agoThey’re not raising any prices on services that I’m aware of. Haven’t these policies and fees been in place for a long time?
- matthewdgreen 6y agoApple’s service revenue just reached an all-time high. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/14629/apple-services-revenue/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/1462...
- seasoup 6y agoWas Facebook blocked from informing people about the Facebook 70% fee?
- davidtranjs 6y agoYes, they should make the ads platform free, and fill the newsfeed with free ads.
- Thorrez 6y agoFacebook's fee is 0%. https://www.facebook.com/business/help/274870883877590 https://www.facebook.com/business/help/274870883877590
- skc 6y agoIf Facebook squares off against Apple in a PR war they'll lose every time. Should have kept this in the boardroom.
- satya71 6y agoI feel the text might have been better if they said "the business will receive 70%, Facebook doesn't take a cut"
- hitekker 6y agoAs a donator, I’d be alarmed if a company tried to hide a 30% surcharge on my bill. Not specifying the line item is just plain sketchy.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y agoIs this the end of Apple? Will I actually switch mobile platforms from Android because third party stores are now available? Tune in next time on "2020: The Year Monopolies get questioned"
- kabacha 6y agoAs mobile gamer Android has been the only option for the longest time already. There's just too much geolocking as the strongest mobile games come from Asia. If someone is interested in exploring this more check out Qoo app store.
- shubhamjain 6y agoSo Apple wants a 30% cut on the money that could easily go to small business owners and artists. A $2T company that makes tens of billions in profit every year can't help being as extractive as it can in the middle of pandemic when everyone is struggling. How can anyone be okay with this blatant abuse of power? How does it matter if the event is online or offline. If it's happening on a Zoom call or in a coffee shop. Apple isn't just harming big companies like Fortnite, it's harming individual creators. If this isn't case for anti-trust, I don't know what is.
- abjgwts 6y agoAbuse of power? They have guidelines every developer must follow. Give one a break, what about the rest?
- echelon 6y agoTrump has guidelines. It doesn't make them fair or right. And I'm not trying to be political, just draw an analogy to counter your argument. A lot of people hold Apple in high esteem. Maybe because they like the company or the aesthetic. But think about all of the innovation and capital locked up in one place. It's bad for the world. Edit: why am I flagged for making a polite and well intentioned argument? Nothing deserves this sort of loyalty where people are flagged for civil discourse. I'm appalled.
- coronadisaster 6y agothe question is, do YOU have guidelines?
- CivBase 6y agoLet the rest go as well. Would it kill Apple to make an exception for charitable purchases? And even if they don't make an exception, it's ridiculous that they wont even let developers be transparent about where the money goes.
- shubhamjain 6y agoIt's nothing but exploitive to keep online events in the same category as in-app purchases. There is a cost to conducting an event—offline or online. Secondly, Apple is well-aware that creators can't conduct offline events that easily because of the pandemic. Hiding behind "it's-rules" is just a trademark of an Evil Corp.
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- plusCubed 6y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301332
- hkai 6y agoI think the media are trolling Facebook now by reprinting the same story every day. The Streisand effect of sorts.
- nevir 6y agoBack in the day, Apple simultaneously: * wanted a 30% cut on all Kindle book sales (sold via iOS) * had negotiated with most major book publishers that any book distributer (aka Amazon, Apple, B&N, etc) must sell their books at exactly a 30% markup. --- Also, we had built a native store experience for the Kindle app before launching it. Yet, after submitting to Apple (and not hearing anything back for weeks), Apple announced their intent to roll out in-app purchasing many months later They also immediately blocked our submission and forced us to take out all references to the native store or even linking to the web store.
- chj 6y agoWhy we didn't hear anything about it at the time?
- nevir 6y agoAmazon didn't want to blow up the relationship. Though, Apple did eventually get taken to court for the book publisher pricing agreements: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.
- rosstex 6y agoFB: Apple blocked us from warning small businesses that 30% of their revenue on Facebook goes to Apple. Fuck Apple. Also FB: We're a multi-billion dollar company but we can't cover the 30% ourselves because fuck Apple. Also also FB: Apple warned users that Facebook tracks them which hurts advertisers because users think tracking is awful. Fuck Apple.
- puranjay 6y agoHard to feel any sympathy for these trillion dollar companies. I'm sick of it all. Large corporations have way too much power in our world.
- Thorrez 6y ago> FB: Apple blocked us from warning small businesses that 30% of their revenue on Facebook goes to Apple. Was FB trying to warn small businesses? I read the article as FB trying to warning users making a purchase, not small businesses organizing an event. > Also FB: We're a multi-billion dollar company but we can't cover the 30% ourselves because fuck Apple. You think it's reasonable for FB to lose $.30 on every dollar that passes through? That's not a sustainable model.
- afrojack123 6y agoThe good old tech oligarchies trying to FANG BANG everyone else.
- hpen 6y agoSo what percent DO you guys think is fair?
- paxys 6y agoThey can take whatever percent they want while also letting developers use alternate payment processors.
- thothamon 6y agoOr even better, allowing users to opt to install apps from other app stores.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y agoThe gold standard for fair prices are those set in a competitive marketplace.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jijji 6y agoThe most expensive payment gateway I have ever seen is Paypal, which charges 2.9% of the sale. Apple is acting as payment gateway, yet they are charging over ten times what a payment gateway would charge
- 6y ago
- colechristensen 6y agoA 30% cut isn’t really out of line with the markup most stores or distributors put on nearly everything you buy, nor are secret business details. I’m not trying to judge right or wrong, but hoping to point out a store taking that cut is the standard not the exception.
- IshKebab 6y agoThat isn't really the issue. The issue is that you have to use Apple's store. There's no alternative.
- t0ughcritic 6y agoAnd even if there was most people wouldn’t sue anything other than the default or biggest store. Apple store policies for developers is making a lot of devs really hate Apple.
- colechristensen 6y agoYou don’t have to use an iPhone and your product doesn’t have to run on one. In order to prove laws have been broken you have to prove that there is a higher issue than just lack of choice on the platform, if “that isn’t really the issue” then there isn’t any issue, legally. If you want there to be something illegal about the lack of choice itself you have to think very long and hard about how you want to correct it with legislation, which would not be an easy thing to do right.
- dang 6y agoAll: These $BigCo vs. $BigCo threads are getting increasingly repetitive and nasty. Please don't post like that. The HN guidelines ask you not to, and every such post degrades this place for future discussion. We're trying to stave off the well-known internet phenomenon in which the site becomes nothing but repetition and anger, and the best users all leave. We want curious conversation here, so if you have a substantive point to make, please make it thoughtfully, and if you don't, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- kartayyar 6y agoWould you be okay with if a web based company, say Google: 1) Delisted you if you didn't support their payment option. 2) Blocked any content that tried to criticize it. 3) Forced you to support their login as an option, and also didn't place it as the first option on the list. Then why are we okay with someone trying to do this for the mobile internet? Apple treats apps like they own the phone. My own mental model is it's my phone, and apps are an extension of the mobile internet.
- eanzenberg 6y agoInteresting how every big dog is attacking Apple as they continue to be the lone-wolf in enabling privacy and a secure platform for their users. Apple users are mostly computer illiterate because its Apple’s mission statement to enable computing for everyone. Because of their ease of use, they are now targeted to open up their platform in ways that will jeopardize both their increasing user-privacy and user-security.
- flcl42 6y agoThis situation is very good for the first start-up that will offer a website that works like an application store and provides crossplatform games/apps etc. along with a good SDK. Time for the web to neutralize the old monopolies
- IdontRememberIt 6y agoAll utilies (Electricity, water, phone, etc.) should ask their commercial customers a 30% cut because they build and provide an ecosystem that is mandatory for them to exist. Going a little further and what if MasterCard and Visa requested a 30% cut to apple. They should also ban Apple from CC acquiring if they make this public.