10 ms·

Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

107 points by jarsin 6y ago

Someone 6y ago
It may be (and, I guess, probably is) written with Microsoft’s help or even be mostly written by them, but I think that’s a personal statement by somebody who claims authority by specifying his job. I also do not read anything there that will affect this round of this fight, which is about the question whether an urgent ruling has to be made that Apple should _now_ be forced to chance its stance.
- microtherion 6y ago
  > I think that’s a personal statement I doubt that a major company would let someone at this level of management make such a "personal statement" without signing off on it internally. Even as an individual contributor at such a company, you would invite quite a bit of trouble with this.
  - hnick 6y ago
    Yes zero chance. As a lowly developer, even if I get asked a question directly by the media about something the company did I'm not allowed to answer per the stated rules. I have to direct them to the department of spin or whatever it's called.
EricE 6y ago
If they feel so strongly about it let Epic open a store inside the Xbox. What? Didn’t think so.
- SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
  The Xbox isn’t marketed as a general purpose computer, nor is it integral to the economy.
  - Voliokis 6y ago
    Apple's misbehavior includes locking out competitors to their own apps. This is as if Microsoft started removing Halo competitors from the Xbox (which they don't do). Just because of that the case is much, much stronger against Apple than it might be against Microsoft.
    - misnome 6y ago
      If a game deliberately bypassed paying Microsoft their cut of the in-game transactions, you think that Microsoft would be fine leaving the game in the store doing this?
  - api 6y ago
    I have always seen iOS devices as consoles, or at least closer to consoles than PCs. Anything with a locked App Store and a locked boot loader is a console by definition. MacOS is a general purpose computer OS. Considered as a console iOS is actually more open and capable than most.
    - factorialboy 6y ago
      > Considered as a console But it's not just a console.
      - api 6y ago
        Locked boot loader, locked App Store. It’s a console.
    - emsy 6y ago
      A console that hosts an app to fight a global pandemic, is used for payment, flight tickets, banking, web browsing (for some people it's their only access to the internet), navigation, taking photos, calling an ambulance. Other than web browsing, none of the things I listed is done on gaming consoles.
    - ctvo 6y ago
      You should let Apple in on that definition so they’ll stop marketing and selling the iPad as a general computing device.
- stale2002 6y ago
  If xBox ever gets to the same total market size as the iPhone, in terms of raw numbers, revenue, ect then maybe it should be. The iPhone is has 10 times a larger market than Internet Explorer did when it lost the anti trust case, for comparison.
- shrewduser 6y ago
  Does Microsoft get a 30% cut of all subscriptions and items bought via apps on Xbox?
  - ppseafield 6y ago
    AFAICT yes. From what I could find, it seems they dropped the Microsoft App Store from 30% to 5%, but their % take for games is still 30%, including in-app purchases. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/microsoft-store-revenue-share/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/microsoft-store-revenue-share... [1] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2019/03/06/updated-microsoft-store-app-developer-agreement-new-revenue-share/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2019/03/06/update... [2] https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut... [3] https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE4o4bH https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE...
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      30% for base level developers with little to no publisher support, anything beyond that is intentionally shrouded in industry secrets. Rumors are some publishers get the 5% deal (or better?), at least for digital-only sales, as some of those publishers have indirectly mentioned higher profit margins on Xbox versus PlayStation, but who knows how accurate the rumors are (or if there are other confounding factors for higher margins on Xbox such Microsoft subsidies or Microsoft's increasing "economy of scale" with keeping PC and Xbox in closer API sync these days) because Xbox keeps a tight lid on publisher specific deals, unlike the rest of the App Store which tries to be much more transparent. The fact that Epic isn't complaining so much about Xbox sales seems to indicate a favorable position on Xbox as well, but again any such details are probably closed room deals we can only guess at from the outside (and probably in constant flux with Xbox marketing as Microsoft wanders between incentives based on favoring Marketing tools/projects like Xbox Play Anywhere, Xbox Game Pass, xCloud, Xbox Smart Delivery, etc).
- hnick 6y ago
  The letter is only in regards to the Unreal Engine being blocked. It will directly impact Microsoft and other game developers not directly involved in this fight. They did not mention Fortnite or alternate stores at all.
  - jbverschoor 6y ago
    That's 100% at Epic's fault. First of all, they willingly put their customers at risk. Second of all, they could've put the engine business in a different entity, keeping it safe from their games business
    - Xunjin 6y ago
      Even if they did that... Apple would just ban, because they can/want. I'm not fan of Epic however if the court rules Epic as right, we are about to see an important precedent to a less monopolized market.
      - s279 6y ago
        That’s Apple’s prerogative after banning a developer who has violated their contract with them. Otherwise you could have shady developers just create numerous of legal entities to effectively brute force their way on to the store, and Apple would be unable to respond. This case is less about monopolisation and more about inequality between two parties when settling a contract. Nothing stops Epic from making an Epic phone and doing the same.
    - mikro 6y ago
      They did put the engine business into a separate entity, a Swiss company called Epic Games International S.à r.l. Apple is threatening to cut off access for both entities. https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-pi-tro-08-23-2020-819871195.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-pi-tro-08-23-2020-8198711...
      - jbverschoor 6y ago
        I just read so. In that case, that should be all safe
- 8note 6y ago
  Last I knew you could buy games for the Xbox from people other than Microsoft. Best Buy, for instance
  - waiseristy 6y ago
    Ah, but Microsoft still takes a cut of that sale, it just happens at a different part of the chain. On top of that, Xbox live takes a 30% cut of all micro transactions, just like Apple.
  - nodamage 6y ago
    Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.
    - sixothree 6y ago
      Isn't that a different argument?
      - nodamage 6y ago
        What argument is that? If the problem is Apple doesn't allow you to sell apps without going through their approval process, Microsoft does the same. If the problem is Apple doesn't allow you to sell apps without collecting a commission on each sale, Microsoft does the same.
        sixothree 6y ago
        I find shifting arguments fairly repulsive. I'm sorry if that offends you. 8note made the point that you could buy games from other stores. It's a narrow point. Why would you reply to that person (in particular) about a digital protection issue that has been prevalent in consoles since the NES introduced it in 1983? Why not start your own thread about that issue? Do you expect him to support a point he did not make? Because it sounds like you are assuming his point of view on digital protection would be different than yours.
- anoncake 6y ago
  MS, understandably, feels differently about other companies' anticompetetive behavior than its own.
- Terretta 6y ago
  Yes. If iPhone as appliance doesn’t stick, Xbox as appliance shouldn’t either. Both are vertically integrated and curated experiences on digital rights managed “consoles”. Epic may have thrown Unreal Engine under the bus, but Microsoft needs the law to recognize it and Apple compete as fully integrated experiences not unbundled hardware separate from app stores. That said, a lot of games money is going to iOS that used to funnel to consoles. So they’re of two minds. The PR move is support Epic. The business move is keep consoles vertically integrated and own curation. /2c
  - zaksoup 6y ago
    I'm not sure that Microsoft sees it that way. The direction they're going with XCloud and XBox Game Pass seems to me that they're interested in strongly diversifying on software as a service while selling XBox hardware as commodity priced entrypoints into their software ecosystem. The only reason XCloud isn't launching on iOS is because Apple denied it, not for Microsoft's lack of trying.
quelsolaar 6y ago
I'm extremely surprised that Apple would engage in something that could in court be perceived as retaliatory against someone who is filing a complaint regarding anti competitive behavior. The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market. By denying Epic access in the game engine market, Apple is trying to get Epic to fold in the game distribution market. Thats text book antitrust behavior. It is shocking to me that Apples lawyers, would allow Apple to so blatantly threaten Epic in this way. They are providing a clear example of anti competitive behavior, for Epic to use in future litigation. You would think Apple has good enough lawyers to put a stop to this self defeating behavior.
- DethNinja 6y ago
  Technically, Apple is completely in the wrong here and in any country with a sane justice system they would lose this case due to blatant anticompetitive behaviour. However, Apple is also one of the largest companies of USA and a quite successful one. At that size they must have considerably good lobbying efforts, political class might also have connections to Apple through shares etc. They might go and say that enabling third party vendors will cause thousands to lose their jobs at Apple. They basically got a huge amount of political influence and I’m sure they will use it for this case. How much political influence Epic games have? Zero? Perhaps not zero but definitely not at the level of Apple. Hence, this case might not be a straightforward win for Epic. It is good though, perhaps some of the fortnite players will understand why antitrust laws are needed and perhaps influence the justice system once they grow up.
  - quelsolaar 6y ago
    I agree. I wrote a long thing about it: https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/1297520275790139394 https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/129752027579013939... I think Epic has been smart to do a lot of PR on this. They need public support since this will become political. I'm surprised that Epic hasn't filed in the EU too.
  - kick 6y ago
    Technically, You're using this word wrong.
danielscrubs 6y ago
Apple succeeded in what Google has failed with, namely to put value on quality apps. A few small missteps and it will become like Android or Windows Phone.
- dybber 6y ago
  Quality and crap can’t coexist? They should only be vetting the privacy and security of apps, and let users decide what is crap.
  - danielscrubs 6y ago
    It can’t because marketing lies and flooding the market with semi functional apps is the end result. The app market is spread out economically but neither users (has to buy a lot of apps to try them out, and because it’s a risk will lower the amount willing to pay) nor developers becomes happy (no clear path through the bad apps).
fxtentacle 6y ago
I'm extremely glad to see that Microsoft is publicly stating in court what many indie developers already thought: Apple is throwing millions of unrelated game companies under the bus, just to get their revenge on Epic. In my opinion, it doesn't get any more retaliatory than that, which means Apple is most likely very far down the wrong side of antitrust law.
misnome 6y ago
I still don't understand what "Denying access to the SDK" is supposed to mean. Aren't the iOS and Mac development tools free to download without a developer account? Isn't publishing on the app stores the only thing that not having an active corporate account prevents? Apple haven't said that they'll block anyone using Unreal Engine, right? I thought this was just about signing keys, in which case other people using the engine should be fine... In fact, does anyone else who deliberately tries to sneak things past the review process get to keep their developer account _and_ the offending version of the app available? Couldn't this just be Apple going "see, we treat them the same as everyone else"?
- smileybarry 6y ago
  They're free to download, but IIRC you're still abiding by their EULA. Apple are threatening to revoke Epic's EULA license. If that happens, Epic would be using the SDK "illegally". (This is all speculation, IANAL, feel free to correct me if you have a better legal understanding of this)

107 points by jarsin 6y ago

It may be (and, I guess, probably is) written with Microsoft’s help or even be mostly written by them, but I think that’s a personal statement by somebody who claims authority by specifying his job. I also do not read anything there that will affect this round of this fight, which is about the question whether an urgent ruling has to be made that Apple should _now_ be forced to chance its stance.

microtherion 6y ago
> I think that’s a personal statement I doubt that a major company would let someone at this level of management make such a "personal statement" without signing off on it internally. Even as an individual contributor at such a company, you would invite quite a bit of trouble with this.
- hnick 6y ago
  Yes zero chance. As a lowly developer, even if I get asked a question directly by the media about something the company did I'm not allowed to answer per the stated rules. I have to direct them to the department of spin or whatever it's called.

EricE 6y ago

If they feel so strongly about it let Epic open a store inside the Xbox. What? Didn’t think so.

SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
The Xbox isn’t marketed as a general purpose computer, nor is it integral to the economy.
- Voliokis 6y ago
  Apple's misbehavior includes locking out competitors to their own apps. This is as if Microsoft started removing Halo competitors from the Xbox (which they don't do). Just because of that the case is much, much stronger against Apple than it might be against Microsoft.
  - misnome 6y ago
    If a game deliberately bypassed paying Microsoft their cut of the in-game transactions, you think that Microsoft would be fine leaving the game in the store doing this?
- api 6y ago
  I have always seen iOS devices as consoles, or at least closer to consoles than PCs. Anything with a locked App Store and a locked boot loader is a console by definition. MacOS is a general purpose computer OS. Considered as a console iOS is actually more open and capable than most.
  - factorialboy 6y ago
    > Considered as a console But it's not just a console.
    - api 6y ago
      Locked boot loader, locked App Store. It’s a console.
  - emsy 6y ago
    A console that hosts an app to fight a global pandemic, is used for payment, flight tickets, banking, web browsing (for some people it's their only access to the internet), navigation, taking photos, calling an ambulance. Other than web browsing, none of the things I listed is done on gaming consoles.
  - ctvo 6y ago
    You should let Apple in on that definition so they’ll stop marketing and selling the iPad as a general computing device.
stale2002 6y ago
If xBox ever gets to the same total market size as the iPhone, in terms of raw numbers, revenue, ect then maybe it should be. The iPhone is has 10 times a larger market than Internet Explorer did when it lost the anti trust case, for comparison.
shrewduser 6y ago
Does Microsoft get a 30% cut of all subscriptions and items bought via apps on Xbox?
- ppseafield 6y ago
  AFAICT yes. From what I could find, it seems they dropped the Microsoft App Store from 30% to 5%, but their % take for games is still 30%, including in-app purchases. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/microsoft-store-revenue-share/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/microsoft-store-revenue-share... [1] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2019/03/06/updated-microsoft-store-app-developer-agreement-new-revenue-share/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2019/03/06/update... [2] https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut... [3] https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE4o4bH https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE...
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    30% for base level developers with little to no publisher support, anything beyond that is intentionally shrouded in industry secrets. Rumors are some publishers get the 5% deal (or better?), at least for digital-only sales, as some of those publishers have indirectly mentioned higher profit margins on Xbox versus PlayStation, but who knows how accurate the rumors are (or if there are other confounding factors for higher margins on Xbox such Microsoft subsidies or Microsoft's increasing "economy of scale" with keeping PC and Xbox in closer API sync these days) because Xbox keeps a tight lid on publisher specific deals, unlike the rest of the App Store which tries to be much more transparent. The fact that Epic isn't complaining so much about Xbox sales seems to indicate a favorable position on Xbox as well, but again any such details are probably closed room deals we can only guess at from the outside (and probably in constant flux with Xbox marketing as Microsoft wanders between incentives based on favoring Marketing tools/projects like Xbox Play Anywhere, Xbox Game Pass, xCloud, Xbox Smart Delivery, etc).
hnick 6y ago
The letter is only in regards to the Unreal Engine being blocked. It will directly impact Microsoft and other game developers not directly involved in this fight. They did not mention Fortnite or alternate stores at all.
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  That's 100% at Epic's fault. First of all, they willingly put their customers at risk. Second of all, they could've put the engine business in a different entity, keeping it safe from their games business
  - Xunjin 6y ago
    Even if they did that... Apple would just ban, because they can/want. I'm not fan of Epic however if the court rules Epic as right, we are about to see an important precedent to a less monopolized market.
    - s279 6y ago
      That’s Apple’s prerogative after banning a developer who has violated their contract with them. Otherwise you could have shady developers just create numerous of legal entities to effectively brute force their way on to the store, and Apple would be unable to respond. This case is less about monopolisation and more about inequality between two parties when settling a contract. Nothing stops Epic from making an Epic phone and doing the same.
  - mikro 6y ago
    They did put the engine business into a separate entity, a Swiss company called Epic Games International S.à r.l. Apple is threatening to cut off access for both entities. https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-pi-tro-08-23-2020-819871195.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-pi-tro-08-23-2020-8198711...
    - jbverschoor 6y ago
      I just read so. In that case, that should be all safe
8note 6y ago
Last I knew you could buy games for the Xbox from people other than Microsoft. Best Buy, for instance
- waiseristy 6y ago
  Ah, but Microsoft still takes a cut of that sale, it just happens at a different part of the chain. On top of that, Xbox live takes a 30% cut of all micro transactions, just like Apple.
- nodamage 6y ago
  Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.
  - sixothree 6y ago
    Isn't that a different argument?
    - nodamage 6y ago
      What argument is that? If the problem is Apple doesn't allow you to sell apps without going through their approval process, Microsoft does the same. If the problem is Apple doesn't allow you to sell apps without collecting a commission on each sale, Microsoft does the same.
      - sixothree 6y ago
        I find shifting arguments fairly repulsive. I'm sorry if that offends you. 8note made the point that you could buy games from other stores. It's a narrow point. Why would you reply to that person (in particular) about a digital protection issue that has been prevalent in consoles since the NES introduced it in 1983? Why not start your own thread about that issue? Do you expect him to support a point he did not make? Because it sounds like you are assuming his point of view on digital protection would be different than yours.
anoncake 6y ago
MS, understandably, feels differently about other companies' anticompetetive behavior than its own.
Terretta 6y ago
Yes. If iPhone as appliance doesn’t stick, Xbox as appliance shouldn’t either. Both are vertically integrated and curated experiences on digital rights managed “consoles”. Epic may have thrown Unreal Engine under the bus, but Microsoft needs the law to recognize it and Apple compete as fully integrated experiences not unbundled hardware separate from app stores. That said, a lot of games money is going to iOS that used to funnel to consoles. So they’re of two minds. The PR move is support Epic. The business move is keep consoles vertically integrated and own curation. /2c
- zaksoup 6y ago
  I'm not sure that Microsoft sees it that way. The direction they're going with XCloud and XBox Game Pass seems to me that they're interested in strongly diversifying on software as a service while selling XBox hardware as commodity priced entrypoints into their software ecosystem. The only reason XCloud isn't launching on iOS is because Apple denied it, not for Microsoft's lack of trying.

quelsolaar 6y ago

I'm extremely surprised that Apple would engage in something that could in court be perceived as retaliatory against someone who is filing a complaint regarding anti competitive behavior. The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market. By denying Epic access in the game engine market, Apple is trying to get Epic to fold in the game distribution market. Thats text book antitrust behavior. It is shocking to me that Apples lawyers, would allow Apple to so blatantly threaten Epic in this way. They are providing a clear example of anti competitive behavior, for Epic to use in future litigation. You would think Apple has good enough lawyers to put a stop to this self defeating behavior.

DethNinja 6y ago
Technically, Apple is completely in the wrong here and in any country with a sane justice system they would lose this case due to blatant anticompetitive behaviour. However, Apple is also one of the largest companies of USA and a quite successful one. At that size they must have considerably good lobbying efforts, political class might also have connections to Apple through shares etc. They might go and say that enabling third party vendors will cause thousands to lose their jobs at Apple. They basically got a huge amount of political influence and I’m sure they will use it for this case. How much political influence Epic games have? Zero? Perhaps not zero but definitely not at the level of Apple. Hence, this case might not be a straightforward win for Epic. It is good though, perhaps some of the fortnite players will understand why antitrust laws are needed and perhaps influence the justice system once they grow up.
- quelsolaar 6y ago
  I agree. I wrote a long thing about it: https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/1297520275790139394 https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/129752027579013939... I think Epic has been smart to do a lot of PR on this. They need public support since this will become political. I'm surprised that Epic hasn't filed in the EU too.
- kick 6y ago
  Technically, You're using this word wrong.

danielscrubs 6y ago

Apple succeeded in what Google has failed with, namely to put value on quality apps. A few small missteps and it will become like Android or Windows Phone.

dybber 6y ago
Quality and crap can’t coexist? They should only be vetting the privacy and security of apps, and let users decide what is crap.
- danielscrubs 6y ago
  It can’t because marketing lies and flooding the market with semi functional apps is the end result. The app market is spread out economically but neither users (has to buy a lot of apps to try them out, and because it’s a risk will lower the amount willing to pay) nor developers becomes happy (no clear path through the bad apps).

fxtentacle 6y ago

I'm extremely glad to see that Microsoft is publicly stating in court what many indie developers already thought: Apple is throwing millions of unrelated game companies under the bus, just to get their revenge on Epic. In my opinion, it doesn't get any more retaliatory than that, which means Apple is most likely very far down the wrong side of antitrust law.

misnome 6y ago

I still don't understand what "Denying access to the SDK" is supposed to mean. Aren't the iOS and Mac development tools free to download without a developer account? Isn't publishing on the app stores the only thing that not having an active corporate account prevents? Apple haven't said that they'll block anyone using Unreal Engine, right? I thought this was just about signing keys, in which case other people using the engine should be fine... In fact, does anyone else who deliberately tries to sneak things past the review process get to keep their developer account _and_ the offending version of the app available? Couldn't this just be Apple going "see, we treat them the same as everyone else"?

smileybarry 6y ago
They're free to download, but IIRC you're still abiding by their EULA. Apple are threatening to revoke Epic's EULA license. If that happens, Epic would be using the SDK "illegally". (This is all speculation, IANAL, feel free to correct me if you have a better legal understanding of this)