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Not all Internet experiences are equal though. 1 GB of internet in Pakistan ($0.69) ≠ 1 GB of internet in Canada ($12.55). I would gladly trade my Pakistani int
by amingilani 6y ago
Not all Internet experiences are equal though. 1 GB of internet in Pakistan ($0.69) ≠ 1 GB of internet in Canada ($12.55). I would gladly trade my Pakistani internet plan for my Canadian internet plan.
Last month, when I was in Pakistan, my experience was:
+ highly censored to the point where even services like Cloudflare's edge-node's within the country were being MiTM-ed by the censors [0];
+ I couldn't use "any mode of communication such as VPN by means of which communication becomes hidden or encrypted is a violation of PTA regulations" in the words of the Pakistan Telecommunication Authoruty (PTA) —Pakistan's FCC-equivalent. I asked them if TLS/SSL was included but they never tweeted back; and
+ I didn't have access to services like Paypal, and when a service hadn't rolled out "globally", it wasn't available to me.
Oh, and while I had "unlimited" internet, I was subject to my carrier's "Fair Use Policy" which had an unspecified maximum download limit after which your internet would be cut off. This was reported by a lot of people during the initial work-from-home boost during the pandemic when home-data-usage spiked.
Now that I'm in Canada, my internet is nearly unrestricted.
Edit: previous said my ISP restricted IRC. Just rechecked, it no longer does.
[0]: https://twitter.com/amingilani/status/1283448960666009601 https://twitter.com/amingilani/status/1283448960666009601
- koolba 6y agoDoes it call out IRC servers specifically? Or any type of server?
- bityard 6y agoIt probably does, and you'll find lots of ISPs, VPS and hosting providers also forbid IRC servers. The main reason for the blanket ban is that once upon a time (and perhaps still) IRC servers were widely used for malicious bot command and control systems and it's easier to just forbid them at all than pay people to spend their time sorting the good guys from the bad guys.
- ralph84 6y agoEven legitimate IRC servers are DoS attack magnets.
- amingilani 6y agoYou know, I just checked, and they seem to have been removed those references. But from what I recall the reference was explicitly IRC. I remember thinking, "Why IRC?"
- phone8675309 6y agoThe levels of salt and free time available to the most dedicated of IRC users when slighted is a sight to behold.
- actuator 6y agoSurely, they can't be MITMing HTTPS traffic without Cloudflare's blessing? Services not being available by region, that can be a bummer but that's not really a problem on internet service provider as such. Also, I am surprised that one more country is building a GFW.
- cmeacham98 6y agoThey can still do it, you'll just get a cert error. Also, if you're using a phone provided by them they could preload a CA they control.
- actuator 6y agoThat's interesting, I wonder if iOS/Android phones in China do something similar. I would be really surprised if Apple allows this.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- judge2020 6y agoThere are a lot of reports of certificate issues (on Cloudflare) in Pakistan as well as Iran, with most of them likely because of censorship. https://community.cloudflare.com/search?q=Pakistan https://community.cloudflare.com/search?q=Pakistan https://community.cloudflare.com/search?q=Iran https://community.cloudflare.com/search?q=Iran
- Deathmax 6y agoIt would be possible for an ISP to MITM the traffic between Cloudflare and the origin server since it can be configured to be done via unencrypted HTTP or non-trusted certs on HTTPS (flexible SSL). See https://medium.com/@karthikb351/airtel-is-sniffing-and-censoring-cloudflares-traffic-in-india-and-they-don-t-even-know-it-90935f7f6d98 https://medium.com/@karthikb351/airtel-is-sniffing-and-censo... for an example of Cloudflare serving a MITM notice page for pirate bay.
- geodel 6y agoImportant point. I was talking to my brother in India. Last month internet service was down in their building for 4 days. Unlike folks who go apoplectic over this, he understands that 3rd world prices do not come with first world service quality in practice. Most people do not have an option to move across continents just because somethings are cheaper there. And internet service is one small part of overall things one has do deal with in their daily lives. Another way to cheaper price is that most jobs done in first world is to be outsourced to much cheaper places, which is happening. Or push lot of middle class jobs to subsistence level jobs, which is also happening.
- asenna 6y agoAlthough, the benefit of having cheap mobile internet / Fiber broadband plans is - you can have multiple redundant backup services! I spend a few months a year in Mumbai, India. I have a truly unlimited 300Mbps fiber connection as the primary source ($25/Mo), a second 100 Mbps connection from a different company as backup ($10/Mo) and my mobile LTE as the third backup ($10/Mo). AND my international roaming US Google Fi network as the 4th backup for $10/GB :) This setup does work pretty well for me.The backups have come in handy at times.
- scarface74 6y agoyou can have multiple redundant backup services! My mom had slow DSL for years 6Mbps/1Mbps through the local phone company. They had stopped offering DSL to new customers for years. I had to stay with her one summer while we were literally between places to stay. Our lease was up and our house was being built. She got cable internet so I could work. She now has Had both DSL and cable for four years just so she will have backup internet and if she cancels the DSL she won’t be able to get it back.
- konjin 6y ago>Important point. I was talking to my brother in India. Last month internet service was down in their building for 4 days. Unlike folks who go apoplectic over this, he understands that 3rd world prices do not come with first world service quality in practice. 4 days is pretty good turn around time for most US cities that aren't NY or SF.
- itsoktocry 6y ago>for my Canadian internet plan. What is a "Canadian internet plan"? Service is far different in rural Northern Ontario than it is in Toronto.
- jagger27 6y agoI was barely an hour outside of Ottawa in the Gatineau Hills last week and didn't have usable coverage.
- amingilani 6y agoMy bad, Toronto for me. Still a bit new to Canada to it's all Canadian to me.
- high_pathetic 6y agoI doubt any Canadian plan has any kind of censoring the previous poster mentioned.
- Scoundreller 6y agoDoesn't all of that censorship make .pk internet access more expensive than it would be? Firewalls and maintaining them aren't free. Cheaper to let it all pass through, especially when it isn't harmful to the network itself.
- amingilani 6y agoThey were doing the bare minimum at first. PTA would order the ISPs to censor resources which would implement the block alone and that's it. Easy to bypass with HTTPS, a 3rd party DNS server, or a VPN. They've since bought an $18.5m web monitoring system from Sandvine and centralized the censorship under PTA. The companies don't deal with it anymore: https://www.codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/surveillance/pakistan-nationwide-web-monitoring/ https://www.codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/surveillance/pa...
- skolsuper 6y agoAmortized over 100m customers, in a country where network engineers can be found for $250/month, they're pretty close to free. It's easy to underestimate how profitable it is to run a telco
- Scoundreller 6y agoSure, but that just means it's an irrelevant factor when comparing low vs. high telecom costs. Though my thinking is when selling censorship equipment to a country, you probably charge a country like .pk more because you know they'll find a way to pay for best-in-class.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y agoRunning a telco is not that expensive. The problem is that building out the infrastructure in the first place is hugely expensive. This is why most countries have only a few "real" operators that own and operate infra, and tons of virtual operators (MVNO) that run on top of others' gear.
- Scapeghost 6y agoAnd let's not forget being assumed to be a spammer by almost all sites, getting rate limited or shadowbanned, not to mention being buried with captchas and having to do unpaid labor to train Google's AI just to access some sites! If you're not outright blocked, that is. All for having an IP address originating from such regions with cheap internet that you can't do much with anyway.
- amingilani 6y agoOh yeah, I have experienced that for a lot of my life. I didn't realize that that wasn't normal, though. I haven't experienced Canadian internet for long enough. However, I can definitely say that I have had to solve a lot of captchas and can recall at least one incident where I could only have been banned because I was from Pakistan.
- Scapeghost 6y agoIt happens often on Reddit, which is really bad with their shadowbanning and associating you with other accounts that you have nothing to do with, probably because crappy ISPs reuse IP addresses for multiple users.
- amingilani 6y agoSome ISPs also use a carrier-grade NAT so multiple users share an IP address.
- Tijdreiziger 6y agoIsn't this almost universally the case for mobile data?
- fomine3 6y agoPossibly IPv6 support on both ISP and web service solves this issue.
- 6y ago
- donmcronald 6y agoMaybe, but those numbers are basically bullshit in terms of the real cost to get a phone plan with 1GB of data. I WISH 1GB of data was $12 in Canada. Unless you’re willing to make some huge concessions you won’t find a phone plan with unlimited calling, unlimited texting, and 1GB of data for less than $40 CAD / month. I currently do BYOD + 3Mb/s throttle + no support + low priority on saturated towers (IMO but not provable) for $23 per month. I wish the government would set reasonable pay per use data rates and make all the carriers abide by them. $12 / GB would be a godsend for low end, price sensitive users.
- 29083011397778 6y agoLast month my Fido bill was $21.11 CAD for both my girlfriend's (4Gb) and my (3Gb) plan. Due to a variety of factors, including (read: entirely due to) generous CS reps, both are heavily discounted. Note these are data-only plans, without SMS or calling. We use the Acrobits softphone (iPhone) or the built-in voip client (de-Googled Android) with voip.ms for - Voice calls - SMS/MMS (in-app, forwarded to any cell number, or via any email client) - Transcribed voicemail - Automatic call recording, and - Spam-call blocking by configuring an IVR (spam callers can't press "1" to continue). I've no relation to Acrobits, Fido, or voip.ms aside from being a customer, though I happily recommend all three.
- rapind 6y agoYou got some pretty great discounts according to https://www.fido.ca/nac/choose-plan?type=byod https://www.fido.ca/nac/choose-plan?type=byod Isn't Fido Toronto only or have they changed that? (it's been a while since I checked) Also worth mentioning is this marketing thing where each of the major carriers own several cheap carriers. E.g. Roger's has: Fido, Chatr, Cityfone, Primus, Zoomer, and SimplyConnect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_mobile_phone_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_mobile_phone_...
- 29083011397778 6y agoI think you're over-estimating the discounts - the plans you linked were for talk, text, and data. The plans I'm talking about are here[1] at nearly the very bottom of the page. Current plans listed are 4Gb for $10/month, though they would require being paired with a voip provider, as I mentioned above. Fido is available nation-wide, AFAIK. You're likely thinking of Wind. Originally available in select cities (such as Toronto or Vancouver), they were bought out by Shaw in... 2015 (?) I believe, and renamed to Freedom Mobile. They are currently available in most major cities, and rely on roaming in less densely populated areas. [1] https://www.fido.ca/consumer/tablets https://www.fido.ca/consumer/tablets
- edge17 6y agoI suspect most people are comparing the access they have to not having had access before though, not to canadian access
- ehsankia 6y agoI just don't see how access is even really relevant to the cost. Content restriction seems like a governmental thing, unrelated to service providers. IT's not like the Pakistani internet is cheap because of the resitrictions.
- guidedlight 6y agoYes, but you are clearly cherrypicking data. 1Gb of internet in Australia ($0.68) is fantastic value compared to 1Gb of internet in Canada ($12.55). Australia's mobile data network is competitive on quality, and is amongst the fastest in the world.
- fbelzile 6y agoIn Canada, we're mostly limited to Bell, Rogers, Telus and Shaw, along with some other provincial crown corporations. Our geography might cause a slight increase in costs, but other than that, limited choice in the market and high barrier to entry keeps our fees high I think.
- paranoidrobot 6y agoIn Australia we have three physical mobile network operators on a national basis: Telstra, Optus and Vodafone. All the other brands you see are MVNOs running on mostly Optus and Vodafone, with the occasional one here or there on Telstra.
- angott 6y agoMVNOs are unable to operate in Canada because the carriers mentioned above won’t let new entrants use their networks. It’s how they protect their oligopoly.
- hug 6y agoThere are significantly more MVNOs on Telstra than there are on Vodafone -- I think you'd be surprised how many more. I would hazard this is because there's a giant legislated fence down the middle of Telstra (referred to as "structural separation") that literally demands that Telstra's retail and wholesale divisions not talk to one another. On a tangent related to that, though, I am very confused about exactly how Australia ended up with such a robust, competitive market when it comes to Internet services. Importantly, Net Neutrality has never ever ever been a thing in Australia: Zero-rating content has been a thing since the 90s: when my friends had a blisteringly-fast-for-the-times 10mbps cable internet package (with, from memory, a 50GB shaped cap), you wouldn't bother downloading something until it hit the BigPond Games site, where the downloads didn't count towards your cap. Even now net neutrality is not a thing: All of the physical network operators bundle in unrated Netflix or Spotify or, y'know, whatever. They compete on offering the best value-adds, as opposed to competing on crippling the service the least. I'm thankful for it, but also it strikes me as particularly odd, in the current times where I expect literally every company to be essentially defrauding little old ladies to turn a buck. Do any fellow Australians have any idea what the real reason for this is? Is it to do with the early legislation demanding Telstra's wholesale & retail structural separation? The mandatory (again, legislated) wholesale of ADSL by Telstra? Why does Optus (read: Singtel) play ball? Is it because of the aforementioned issues? I have so many questions.
- londev 6y agoI’m currently travelling through Italy and I can have full strength 4G but almost no data connectivity. I don’t know how anyone manages to use their data allowance here.
- Camillo 6y agoThey're probably not using a UK plan.
- as_ 6y agoHave you got a new SIM from a local operator (which one?) or are you using your old one ? In the last case perhaps there is a problem in the roaming config. In Italy the connection is pretty good (50 down /10 up Mbps), at least in the urban areas. Basic contracts give you unlimited voice, unlimited texts, 50-70GB/month for about €8.
- frereubu 6y agoDepends on where you are of course - a friend of mine sent me a speedtest screenshot amused at how his download speed on a mobile connection in northern Italy was ten times faster (literally) than his ADSL connection in south London!
- p49k 6y agoYour comment makes a strong implication that prices are correlated with quality (and thus attempts to provide justification for price gouging by Canadian telcos) but the rest of the data makes it clear that’s not the case.
- guerrilla 6y agoThe comment really doesn't and I don't think you can conclude that generalization in another way either because there are too many counterexamples in the map. There's no way the expensive Internet in Uganda is superior to Sweden's. Furthermore, qualitiy varies much more in the US than it does in Sweden where its universally high quality and slightly cheaper. French and German internet are both pretty good but seem to differ greatly in price. Portuguese internet isn't that much worse than Spanish (unless you count the annoying setup for Portugal.) Check the map for even more counter examples. If I had to guess the prices probably have more to do with subsidies, general infrastructure quality and competition than resultant quality.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- amingilani 6y agoI didn't mean to, nor did I imply that price and quality are correlated. I gave the prices as a quick reference to the link, and the commentary is my own personal experience. You're welcome to interpret it however you like, but please don't credit me for how you interpret it.
- neya 6y agoThis isn't necessarily true in all cases - I can cite you an opposite example. Pre-covid, I was in Singapore. You pay $10 SGD for 1GB of data ONLY (no calls included). The top network operator in Singapore is state-backed Singtel. Their network coverage is very poor in many areas within the city. Singapore is almost literally just one big city and yet, the 4G experience is extremely poor. Also, customer support is very difficult to get hold of, if you're on the prepaid plan. I almost found it a rip off to pay so much for 1GB of 4G data for such a crappy experience. Now, after my trip, I went to India. I paid $10 for 1.5GB of data DAILY from Airtel (India's top provider) which also includes free unlimited calls. The experience isn't uniform (India is quite huge in comparison to Singapore) but within any tier A city, Airtel is MUCH better than Singtel. Also, the customer support is top notch for the peanuts you pay them and you can find an operator to talk to in usually a minute or less. For comparison, in Singtel, you would have to navigate the crazyily designed IVR and wait for atleast 5+ minutes before you can talk to a real person. I'm just citing this example to prove that the most expensive 1GB isn't necessarily the best.
- murukesh_s 6y ago>$10 for 1.5GB of data DAILY. to be clear you paid $10 and you got 1.5GB daily for a Month, correct? If not you are taken for a ride by Airtel. Jio charges ~$5 for a month and you get 1.5GB daily with unlimited calls.. bandwidth ~40mbps in tier 1 cities and 10mbs tier2 and tier3..
- neya 6y agoI should have been clear, yes you're correct - I paid $10 for an entire month for 1.5GB of data daily. I'll try out Jio next time, thank you for the recommendation.
- fakedang 6y agoI wouldn't recommend it. Jio has too much of a load issue, especially at nights. Airtel isn't the top provider in India, and thankfully so. Airtel is much much faster than Jio, even if it's slightly more expensive.
- baybal2 6y agoTo be fair, China Mobile 200GB package worked for me flawlessly in Islamabad, and Lahore. https://www.zong.com.pk/internet/mbb-plans https://www.zong.com.pk/internet/mbb-plans
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y agoPakistan and PayPal is really a special case. It has nothing to with the telecoms infrastructure and everything do with a legal dispute between the government of Pakistan and PayPal. PayPal is not available in Turkey, either, for similar reasons.
- hyakosm 6y ago1 GB of internet in France ($0.81) == 1 GB of internet in Canada ($12.55). Canadian prices are exorbitant. The key is true concurrency.