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American companies are blocked from doing business in China either by the great firewall, having to transfer intellectual property, having to give the governmen

American companies are blocked from doing business in China either by the great firewall, having to transfer intellectual property, having to give the government unfettered access to user data or by having to have Chinese ownership. Bytedance has no legs to stand on here.

mdoms 6y ago
Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome?
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome? Last I checked, American companies can’t challenge Beijing in court the way Tik Tok is here.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    So because we’re better in one or two or so ways, we can’t say that the bad things are comparable?
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > because we’re better in one or two or so ways, we can’t say that the bad things are comparable The existence of an independent judiciary makes the two incomparable. The American executive is constrained in his actions by the law. That gives the landscape a degree of predictability (albeit less than I’d like). Comparing this to China, where the law begins and ends with the party’s whims, is a slippery slope fallacy.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Make no mistake, the US judiciary is also fully captured by the two parties. Just because one person doesn't have total power means nothing, Xi Jinping doesn't have total power either. But the the two US parties and sometimes even one party alone can totally make anything legal. The judiciary is independent only instantenaousely, not long term. Mind you, this is because the US political system is not made to deal with parties. When you add a duopoly of power every single check and balance of the US political system breaks down. That, makes the two comparable.
        bassman9000 6y ago
        Recent SCOTUS actions disprove your point.
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        I never said that the judiciary was controlled by the president, I said it was controlled by the parties through nomination. If you have control over the parties for long enough, you get total control over the judiciary. Therefore, the judiciaries are not truly independent. In the same way, Xi Jinping doesn't have total control over China - the National People's Congress has the authority to remove the President at any time. But because the CCP is by far the most popular party in China, the party is truly in charge, and the checks and balances do not really work. Both China and the US, are in theory democracies with an unlimited amount of parties and separation of power! And actually, 20% of congressional representatives in China are independent. But in practice, it's mathematically unlikely that another party would achieve a majority. In the US, too, it's mathematically unlikely that either of the two parties get replaced by a third party. So in China, to have effective absolute power, you need to control the CCP and discourage people from running as independents. In the US, to have effective absolute power, you need to control both the DNC and the RNC, and independents naturally cannot win. So in both cases, separation of power is theoretic. But, in practice, the US has more diversity between the two parties, while in China there is more diversity inside one party. In both cases, the judiciary, executive and legislative are indirectly dependent because they are all dependent on the same parties.
        bassman9000 6y ago
        Therefore, the judiciaries are not truly independent. That's like saying that, because you were brought up by your parents, you will always behave exactly as they wanted you to, removing all agency. SCOTUS justices' decisions, against what their proponents desired, prove they work independently. They can be flawed, but that's why there's more than one. the CCP is by far the most popular party in China The CCP is the only party in china. Both China and the US, are in theory democracies No, they're not. And I'm not nit picking with the US is a Republic. It's that is a joke to even attempt to place China at the same level. So in China, to have effective absolute power, you need to control the CCP and discourage people from running as independents. In the US, to have effective absolute power, you need to control both the DNC and the RNC, and independents naturally cannot win. So in both cases, separation of power is theoretic. I don't even know where to start with this one. The CCP controls China. Maybe not down to the most local level, but almost. Nor in their wettest dreams the DNC/RNC would ever achieve the level of control and oppression the CCP has. And I'm pretty sure many on both sides wouldn't even allow it. the judiciary, executive and legislative are indirectly dependent because they are all dependent on the same parties. And back to square one. No. By a million miles. Not even close. With all its flaws, the US judiciary, and its Rule of Law, are orders of magnitude above the Chinese, if we can even start comparing apples to oranges.
    - tathougies 6y ago
      It's not diversity of differences that matters but rather the magnitude of those differences. Being different in one substantive way is infinitely better than being different in a myriad of little ways.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    How did you check? If there's some kind of resource for answering questions like that, I'd be very interested in learning about it.
    - Hnaomyiph 6y ago
      I don’t have a resource to answer this question, but the lack of court proceedings and the fact that just about every big tech company is barred and has been barred for over a decade by the great firewall indirectly answers that question. If there was a way to sue yourself into the Chinese market, you would see that happening.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > How did you check? Legal counsel.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  Additionally, TikTok represents major US and international interests through its users and investors. I doubt the app would continue to be successful without the original creative minds behind it.
- khuey 6y ago
  I think the specific ways Trump is going about it (targeting individual companies, and the insane bit about the treasury deserving a I-bankers commission) are awful but I also think that taking zero action towards reciprocal market access because "we don't want to become more like China" is also a fool's game.
- ponker 6y ago
  Bob slaps Steve in the face repeatedly. Steve stands with his hands by his side. Finally right as he starts to defend himself Jason sees him raising his arms and gasps “Steve! For shame! Do you want to be more like Bob?! Put your arms down where they belong!” (Nothing about retaliating against China has anything to do with TikTok’s “ban” which is just a paroxysm from a deranged moron)
  - Talanes 6y ago
    This, but every time Bob and Steve slap one another, they end up backhanding one of their kids on the backswing. China's great firewall is to the detriment of their citizens, and retaliating in kind is to the detriment of ours.
- rasz 6y ago
  America becoming more like China when dealing with China is by all means a desirable outcome!
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    To an extent the iterated prisoner's dilemma game must be played with the tit-for-tat response to a defection, but if the US can't find a way to play that game without sacrificing its core values, then the US implicitly loses the game anyway (people more versed in game theory please feel free to correct me).
  - kelnos 6y ago
    You have to be careful not to become what you dislike in the process, though. That's certainly not a desirable outcome. I think the US can toe this line successfully, with care[0]. Countries that don't give us meaningful access to their internal markets should just not get meaningful access to ours. Simple to implement ahead of the fact, but unfortunately too many US interests are tied up in China to simply unravel it all right now. [0] Care that I do not trust the current administration to wield, but also sadly do not expect the hopefully-next administration to want to wield at all. A fear of mine is that Biden will choose to bend over backward to appease China after Trump's ham-fisted trade war, and things will go back to the way they were, with China's interests running roughshod over the US's.
- gruez 6y ago
  I would have a problem if it involved america devolving to china's level, making life worse for its citizens (eg. surveillance, censorship). However, I don't have any problems with america engaging in tit-for-tat exchange against china.
- typ 6y ago
  When you respond to the guys who follow nasty strategies with niceness, you are literally rewarding the bad behaviors. If being cooperative wouldn't get much differences than being exploitative, then the nice guys will vanish and only the bad guys will remain. A reciprocal strategy is necessary and beneficial long-term for the world IMO. The well-known book The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins has an interesting chapter titled Nice Guys Finish First giving a good illustration relevant to this idea.
- shard972 6y ago
  If china launched physical warfare against America, Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome?
justicezyx 6y ago
We are talking about TikTok here. Please do not intentionally mix 2 entities. There is law forced upon TikTok to abide by US law (or any local laws where TikTok operates). Protecting TikTok is fighting the abuses forced onto the US and other international corps by CCP and the Chinese government.
- chrischen 6y ago
  We force other countries as well, such as the inane war on drugs. We threaten to sanction countries that legalize drugs. It’s projection of power 101. China’s no saint but the level you have been brainwashed to think America is such the great protector of democracy and freedom is typical global-unaware American ignorance.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Finally the king is naked. Chinese industry has show that what the US wants is to submit other countries, not real competition.
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      I do not think this type of discussion is useful at all. Even inside China. They need to learn and study other nation's policies and laws to make sure they can continue maintain a society of 1.4 Billion people. Both US and China would benefit from open competition, in general. Of cuz, in certain scenarios & times, the discussion is much more nuanced. Like the TikTok discussion here.
      - Dahoon 6y ago
        >They need to learn and study other nation's policies and laws to make sure they can continue maintain a society of 1.4 Billion people. Study, yes. Copy or follow, no. China should stay China. We have enough countries trying to dance after the US tune already. >Both US and China would benefit from open competition, in general. Absolutely, but not under US rules or law outside the US. Tiktok should be allowed to collect just as much information as Facebook and Google or more if they want to as as long as it legal. This whole trying to make different rules in the US for foreign businesses is worse than what China is blamed of doing. Chinese businesses have more rules to follow in China than foreign businesses. Exactly the opposite than what the US is doing. If the US won't do business with Chinese businesses because they are sometimes mixed in with the state they are playing favourites because lots and lots of trade is done with state owned and run businesses from other countries, like Scandinavia. The problem here isn't what China is or isn't doing. It is the colour of their skin and that it isn't the capitalist system the US wants everyone to be.
vkou 6y ago
Your information is a decade out of date. American brands, franchises, and products, from iPhones, to Starbucks, to McDonalds, to Teslas are everywhere in China. Oh, and China is Facebook's second largest market (Despite the app itself being banned, Facebook does a ton of business there.) It's a huge market for Microsoft, Apple, and even Google makes billions of dollars from it. The Great Firewall doesn't seem to be doing a great job of keeping any of them out.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- plumeria 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on Facebook's business in China, please?
  - vkou 6y ago
    The same as Facebook's business in the rest of the world. Chinese firms pay Facebook billions of dollars for their ads to be shown on their platform.
chrischen 6y ago
This is not the reason why the Trump administration is doing this nor is it even a good reason. The reason is we don’t want a Chinese company which can be compelled by the Chinese government to hand over the data to operate a social network used by so many Americans. Trump even said as much so. If the US government can do national security letters, force Apple to make modified devices for covert operations, And monitor/log metadata, China is able to do so to their domestic companies as well. Really so long as China challenges the US for superiority there is no way to avoid conflicts like this and no real way for China to comply except to maintain a clear #2 position. Inventing and speculating on nonsensical rationale doesn't really help in any way.
deleted 6y ago
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three_seagrass 6y ago
Bytedance is a Cayman Islands company, not Chinese. Despite having offices in Beijing, Bytedance and Tiktok are not beholden to the Chinese National Intelligence law. TaoTiao, on the other hand, is a subsidiary in China and is beholden to CNI, but the executive order has nothing to do with that company and there is no evidence that it receives data from TikTok.
- khuey 6y ago
  The idea that ByteDance is not beholden to the Chinese state is contradicted by the founder's own words. https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    That letter is only about Toutiao, the Chinese subsidiary I talked about.
    - khuey 6y ago
      If you truly believe someone who would sign his name to something this obsequious about one of his companies would tell Beijing to get lost for another one of his companies I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - three_seagrass 6y ago
        The only bridge for sale here is confusing this letter written by TaoTiao PR with Bytedance or TikTok. Again, TaoTiao is beholden to Chinese National Intelligence law, not ByteDance or TikTok. Apple has forked over the same with it's subsidiary in China: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...
Thorrez 6y ago
US legal precedent is based on legal decisions in the US, not legal decisions in China.

mdoms 6y ago

Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome?

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome? Last I checked, American companies can’t challenge Beijing in court the way Tik Tok is here.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  So because we’re better in one or two or so ways, we can’t say that the bad things are comparable?
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > because we’re better in one or two or so ways, we can’t say that the bad things are comparable The existence of an independent judiciary makes the two incomparable. The American executive is constrained in his actions by the law. That gives the landscape a degree of predictability (albeit less than I’d like). Comparing this to China, where the law begins and ends with the party’s whims, is a slippery slope fallacy.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Make no mistake, the US judiciary is also fully captured by the two parties. Just because one person doesn't have total power means nothing, Xi Jinping doesn't have total power either. But the the two US parties and sometimes even one party alone can totally make anything legal. The judiciary is independent only instantenaousely, not long term. Mind you, this is because the US political system is not made to deal with parties. When you add a duopoly of power every single check and balance of the US political system breaks down. That, makes the two comparable.
      - bassman9000 6y ago
        Recent SCOTUS actions disprove your point.
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        I never said that the judiciary was controlled by the president, I said it was controlled by the parties through nomination. If you have control over the parties for long enough, you get total control over the judiciary. Therefore, the judiciaries are not truly independent. In the same way, Xi Jinping doesn't have total control over China - the National People's Congress has the authority to remove the President at any time. But because the CCP is by far the most popular party in China, the party is truly in charge, and the checks and balances do not really work. Both China and the US, are in theory democracies with an unlimited amount of parties and separation of power! And actually, 20% of congressional representatives in China are independent. But in practice, it's mathematically unlikely that another party would achieve a majority. In the US, too, it's mathematically unlikely that either of the two parties get replaced by a third party. So in China, to have effective absolute power, you need to control the CCP and discourage people from running as independents. In the US, to have effective absolute power, you need to control both the DNC and the RNC, and independents naturally cannot win. So in both cases, separation of power is theoretic. But, in practice, the US has more diversity between the two parties, while in China there is more diversity inside one party. In both cases, the judiciary, executive and legislative are indirectly dependent because they are all dependent on the same parties.
        bassman9000 6y ago
        Therefore, the judiciaries are not truly independent. That's like saying that, because you were brought up by your parents, you will always behave exactly as they wanted you to, removing all agency. SCOTUS justices' decisions, against what their proponents desired, prove they work independently. They can be flawed, but that's why there's more than one. the CCP is by far the most popular party in China The CCP is the only party in china. Both China and the US, are in theory democracies No, they're not. And I'm not nit picking with the US is a Republic. It's that is a joke to even attempt to place China at the same level. So in China, to have effective absolute power, you need to control the CCP and discourage people from running as independents. In the US, to have effective absolute power, you need to control both the DNC and the RNC, and independents naturally cannot win. So in both cases, separation of power is theoretic. I don't even know where to start with this one. The CCP controls China. Maybe not down to the most local level, but almost. Nor in their wettest dreams the DNC/RNC would ever achieve the level of control and oppression the CCP has. And I'm pretty sure many on both sides wouldn't even allow it. the judiciary, executive and legislative are indirectly dependent because they are all dependent on the same parties. And back to square one. No. By a million miles. Not even close. With all its flaws, the US judiciary, and its Rule of Law, are orders of magnitude above the Chinese, if we can even start comparing apples to oranges.
  - tathougies 6y ago
    It's not diversity of differences that matters but rather the magnitude of those differences. Being different in one substantive way is infinitely better than being different in a myriad of little ways.
- yorwba 6y ago
  How did you check? If there's some kind of resource for answering questions like that, I'd be very interested in learning about it.
  - Hnaomyiph 6y ago
    I don’t have a resource to answer this question, but the lack of court proceedings and the fact that just about every big tech company is barred and has been barred for over a decade by the great firewall indirectly answers that question. If there was a way to sue yourself into the Chinese market, you would see that happening.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > How did you check? Legal counsel.
justicezyx 6y ago
Additionally, TikTok represents major US and international interests through its users and investors. I doubt the app would continue to be successful without the original creative minds behind it.
khuey 6y ago
I think the specific ways Trump is going about it (targeting individual companies, and the insane bit about the treasury deserving a I-bankers commission) are awful but I also think that taking zero action towards reciprocal market access because "we don't want to become more like China" is also a fool's game.
ponker 6y ago
Bob slaps Steve in the face repeatedly. Steve stands with his hands by his side. Finally right as he starts to defend himself Jason sees him raising his arms and gasps “Steve! For shame! Do you want to be more like Bob?! Put your arms down where they belong!” (Nothing about retaliating against China has anything to do with TikTok’s “ban” which is just a paroxysm from a deranged moron)
- Talanes 6y ago
  This, but every time Bob and Steve slap one another, they end up backhanding one of their kids on the backswing. China's great firewall is to the detriment of their citizens, and retaliating in kind is to the detriment of ours.
rasz 6y ago
America becoming more like China when dealing with China is by all means a desirable outcome!
- nitrogen 6y ago
  To an extent the iterated prisoner's dilemma game must be played with the tit-for-tat response to a defection, but if the US can't find a way to play that game without sacrificing its core values, then the US implicitly loses the game anyway (people more versed in game theory please feel free to correct me).
- kelnos 6y ago
  You have to be careful not to become what you dislike in the process, though. That's certainly not a desirable outcome. I think the US can toe this line successfully, with care[0]. Countries that don't give us meaningful access to their internal markets should just not get meaningful access to ours. Simple to implement ahead of the fact, but unfortunately too many US interests are tied up in China to simply unravel it all right now. [0] Care that I do not trust the current administration to wield, but also sadly do not expect the hopefully-next administration to want to wield at all. A fear of mine is that Biden will choose to bend over backward to appease China after Trump's ham-fisted trade war, and things will go back to the way they were, with China's interests running roughshod over the US's.
gruez 6y ago
I would have a problem if it involved america devolving to china's level, making life worse for its citizens (eg. surveillance, censorship). However, I don't have any problems with america engaging in tit-for-tat exchange against china.
typ 6y ago
When you respond to the guys who follow nasty strategies with niceness, you are literally rewarding the bad behaviors. If being cooperative wouldn't get much differences than being exploitative, then the nice guys will vanish and only the bad guys will remain. A reciprocal strategy is necessary and beneficial long-term for the world IMO. The well-known book The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins has an interesting chapter titled Nice Guys Finish First giving a good illustration relevant to this idea.
shard972 6y ago
If china launched physical warfare against America, Do you think America becoming more like China is a desirable outcome?

justicezyx 6y ago

We are talking about TikTok here. Please do not intentionally mix 2 entities. There is law forced upon TikTok to abide by US law (or any local laws where TikTok operates). Protecting TikTok is fighting the abuses forced onto the US and other international corps by CCP and the Chinese government.

chrischen 6y ago
We force other countries as well, such as the inane war on drugs. We threaten to sanction countries that legalize drugs. It’s projection of power 101. China’s no saint but the level you have been brainwashed to think America is such the great protector of democracy and freedom is typical global-unaware American ignorance.
- coliveira 6y ago
  Finally the king is naked. Chinese industry has show that what the US wants is to submit other countries, not real competition.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    I do not think this type of discussion is useful at all. Even inside China. They need to learn and study other nation's policies and laws to make sure they can continue maintain a society of 1.4 Billion people. Both US and China would benefit from open competition, in general. Of cuz, in certain scenarios & times, the discussion is much more nuanced. Like the TikTok discussion here.
    - Dahoon 6y ago
      >They need to learn and study other nation's policies and laws to make sure they can continue maintain a society of 1.4 Billion people. Study, yes. Copy or follow, no. China should stay China. We have enough countries trying to dance after the US tune already. >Both US and China would benefit from open competition, in general. Absolutely, but not under US rules or law outside the US. Tiktok should be allowed to collect just as much information as Facebook and Google or more if they want to as as long as it legal. This whole trying to make different rules in the US for foreign businesses is worse than what China is blamed of doing. Chinese businesses have more rules to follow in China than foreign businesses. Exactly the opposite than what the US is doing. If the US won't do business with Chinese businesses because they are sometimes mixed in with the state they are playing favourites because lots and lots of trade is done with state owned and run businesses from other countries, like Scandinavia. The problem here isn't what China is or isn't doing. It is the colour of their skin and that it isn't the capitalist system the US wants everyone to be.

vkou 6y ago

Your information is a decade out of date. American brands, franchises, and products, from iPhones, to Starbucks, to McDonalds, to Teslas are everywhere in China. Oh, and China is Facebook's second largest market (Despite the app itself being banned, Facebook does a ton of business there.) It's a huge market for Microsoft, Apple, and even Google makes billions of dollars from it. The Great Firewall doesn't seem to be doing a great job of keeping any of them out.

deleted 6y ago
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plumeria 6y ago
Can you elaborate on Facebook's business in China, please?
- vkou 6y ago
  The same as Facebook's business in the rest of the world. Chinese firms pay Facebook billions of dollars for their ads to be shown on their platform.

chrischen 6y ago

This is not the reason why the Trump administration is doing this nor is it even a good reason. The reason is we don’t want a Chinese company which can be compelled by the Chinese government to hand over the data to operate a social network used by so many Americans. Trump even said as much so. If the US government can do national security letters, force Apple to make modified devices for covert operations, And monitor/log metadata, China is able to do so to their domestic companies as well. Really so long as China challenges the US for superiority there is no way to avoid conflicts like this and no real way for China to comply except to maintain a clear #2 position. Inventing and speculating on nonsensical rationale doesn't really help in any way.

deleted 6y ago

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three_seagrass 6y ago

Bytedance is a Cayman Islands company, not Chinese. Despite having offices in Beijing, Bytedance and Tiktok are not beholden to the Chinese National Intelligence law. TaoTiao, on the other hand, is a subsidiary in China and is beholden to CNI, but the executive order has nothing to do with that company and there is no evidence that it receives data from TikTok.

khuey 6y ago
The idea that ByteDance is not beholden to the Chinese state is contradicted by the founder's own words. https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  That letter is only about Toutiao, the Chinese subsidiary I talked about.
  - khuey 6y ago
    If you truly believe someone who would sign his name to something this obsequious about one of his companies would tell Beijing to get lost for another one of his companies I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - three_seagrass 6y ago
      The only bridge for sale here is confusing this letter written by TaoTiao PR with Bytedance or TikTok. Again, TaoTiao is beholden to Chinese National Intelligence law, not ByteDance or TikTok. Apple has forked over the same with it's subsidiary in China: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...

Thorrez 6y ago

US legal precedent is based on legal decisions in the US, not legal decisions in China.