5 ms·

Is that legal in the USA? Entering into a purchase agreement ("koopovereenkomst", not sure if I'm translating the jargon correctly) and then just not paying? Be

by Aachen 6y ago

Is that legal in the USA? Entering into a purchase agreement ("koopovereenkomst", not sure if I'm translating the jargon correctly) and then just not paying? Because that's certainly not legal where I live. I understand that the odds of repercussions are small and that there are no damages on Adobe's side since you haven't physically taken their goods so it would probably have to be taken up by the public prosecutor rather than become a civil case... but still, I'd not be happy having my name on a "doesn't pay their bills" list, nor is it quite honest. Or am I misunderstanding the situation and did they advertised with monthly cancelable? (False advertising) Nobody mentioned that in the thread though, and from this comment it sounds like it was very clear that you were agreeing into a year-long subscription: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24232282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24232282

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
Maybe it's technically illegal. I don't care. In the USA, it would be civil issue not a criminal one anyway. They can sue me if they like. As far as the morality portion of things is concerned, I don't consider what they are doing moral anyway and I sleep fine at night.
berkes 6y ago
From "koopovereenkomst" I assume you are Dutch or Belgian. In the Netherlands, a "koopovereenkomst" most often means you have a "payment obligation" (betaalverplichting). The whole invoicing system where people pay afterwards, hinges on this principle. Disclaimer: IANAL (But I helped as software developer at a factoring company: which buys unpaid invoices from freelancers for a fee or a percentage of the invoice-amount)
- vosper 6y ago
  > a factoring company: which buys unpaid invoices from freelancers for a fee or a percentage of the invoice-amount Getting way off-topic here, but I’ve never heard of this. Is it like a bill-collector for freelancers? Who do the non-payers tend to be - is it companies who think they can stiff a freelancer, but who will pay up when someone with teeth comes knocking? Also, can anyone sell an invoice on to someone else to collect it, or does that possibility have to be written into the initial contract between the freelancer and the employer?
  - jsmith99 6y ago
    Not sure about freelancers specifically but factoring is normally used by small companies to reduce short term capital requirements, as most companies will only pay invoices after 30 days and some have payment terms of much longer eg 90 days. Anyone can factor an invoice and if it was issued by a large and credit worthy company then this is a cheap way to access secured credit.
    - illirik 6y ago
      More recently, see the development of reverse factoring, where the customer initiates financing for its purchases from its suppliers. It's dangerous, as you can imagine; if the customer can't pay for its invoices, instead of being indebted to a supplier, they are in default to their creditor. See Greensill, a $1.5bn-from-Softbank startup that is involved in several recent crises among its creditors in the UK (see https://www.ft.com/content/d5a5951f-bab8-4ea8-b0d7-2b70455c9ed5 https://www.ft.com/content/d5a5951f-bab8-4ea8-b0d7-2b70455c9..., and for a more indepth explanation of what reverse factoring is (with jokes also), see https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-iyz8z-e06e88 https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-iyz8z-e06e88)
    - vosper 6y ago
      Thanks, this makes sense. Do you have any idea what the factor’s cut is? It can’t be too much, because otherwise the freelancer would wait for direct payment - unless they are really tight for money - so my gut feeling is somewhere between 5% - 10%
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    These are debt collectors, you've definitely heard of them, and they're all super shady. This is just how it works. A normal business, say your bank or you energy supplier or your software supplier, will try and recover a debt with some basic attempts. But then they'll bundle together all their debts and sell them to debt collectors for pennies on the pound. Don't know why they're called a factoring company in Holland.
    - mcv 6y ago
- tluyben2 6y ago
  Being from the Netherlands and having had a company there for 30 years, I know how well the law works; I have had many companies simply not paying invoices. And because the amounts are small (few 1000 usually) they get away with it without issues. We have tried everything: even winning in court but they still did not pay. Possession indeed is 9/10 of the law. So I would not worry about it too much not paying some Adobe bill.
rkangel 6y ago
No, it's almost certainly not legal. They're unlikely to pursue for damages though, and it doesn't feel unethical to me.
- willcipriano 6y ago
  It's legal, you just still owe them the money. Nothing is stopping you from canceling a debit card that you have active reoccurring payments on, just if your mortgage was one of those the bank can still find you in default. Similarly if Adobe owed you money they may make you run through a customer service maze in order to get it. That's legal too. They don't have to provide you with a method to automatically take as much money as you assume you are owed.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    You left out the part where they sell the debt you have with them to a debt collector who will then ruin your credit score.
tobyhinloopen 6y ago
I did the same. I just stopped paying and told my CC company to block transactions because I never agreed to them. Adobe is very unclear about what you’re actually agreeing to up until the point you’re cancelling. I just blocked transactions and never heard from them again (except for some emails). If they want to fight it, good luck winning it in Dutch courts when the conditions are unclear.
- wodenokoto 6y ago
  Everybody on the net is always like "Just told my bank to block the transaction" - when I did that, in a EU country, my bank was very reluctant. They wanted proof that I had been in contact with the company and tried to get a refund from them, and that I in fact didn't owe them money.
  - wila 6y ago
    Yep same experience with a US company that had gone broke, publicly said so on their website, yet still had renewed a subscription I had with them after the public statement that they would no longer deliver anything. Ended up with months of paperwork, claims from the other party that I ordered it myself (no idea where as the website to order was gone) including printouts of Stripe with my IP address which was supposed to prove their point. Five or six mail forms to fill out (yes _mail_ not email) over the period of months with very strict deadlines. They must have gathered the IP address from an earlier transaction a year before that. It also did not raise any flags that the transaction was exactly one year later on the minute. An incredible waste of my time and if I had to go through all of that again I will just let it go.
  - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
    In contrast, I asked my French bank to do this once and they did immediately. The problem is between me and the vendor, not the bank.
  - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
    Exactly. I tried to reverse some charges. The bank told me I had to file a police report. I did find that the company returned the money pretty promptly when I told them I was reporting them to the police...
teekert 6y ago
Here in the Netherlands Adobe breaks our laws by not allowing one to cancel a subscription every month after the first year. It took me 45 min on the phone and 4 forwards and saying expressly that they were breaking the law before they cancelled the subscription. No more Adobe for me. All conversations could only be done in English, something my wife would already be pretty uncomfortable with.
johnchristopher 6y ago
I recently wanted to get some practical knowledge with cloud storage buckets and my first choice was Azure (for no other reasons that name was shrouded with mystery). Free trial, etc. I give my phone number (something like "for legal reasons"). Then it asks for my CC. I already hate it because it's highly dubious they need my CC number for a free trial since it's not needed to deliver the product. Fine, I give it. Then the process is declined because they don't like my rechargeable CC. I am a happy AWS freeloader and potential customer now (well, for one year at least).
- rootsudo 6y ago
  Well, to shed insight on Azure. 1. Phone number is required to minimize fake/bot/fraudulent use accounts. 2. Credit card is required in case you want to immediately scale up, and also, used as anti fraud as depending on the card used, and address is used to judge you as a customer and whether or not you should be disabled immediately upon account creation. Credit cards first six numbers are the BIN, or bank identification number, these are used to sort whom the issuing bank is, what type of credit card line, and whether or not it is a virtual or such. These are compounded to give you an antifraud score. Address and connecting IP address help too. So that's why it was denied, but for a company like Micrsoft, their billing practices are very much streamlined and not so hidden vs other companies nor do they introduce "tricky" language such as Adobe's yearly contract, payable monthly SAAS.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    > 2. Credit card is required in case you want to immediately scale up, and also, used as anti fraud as depending on the card used, and address is used to judge you as a customer and whether or not you should be disabled immediately upon account creation. That's not what MS says the credit card is for (edit: which doesn't mean they aren't using it the way you explained they do): > We ask for your credit card number to verify your identity and to keep out spam and bots. You won’t be charged unless you upgrade. They don't want me because of my CC (I specifically want a pre-paid CC I can put money on as I need it and can never be overcharged) because my CC can't be easily charged in case I forget to cancel the service. Amazon, PSN store, paypal, online clothing store, pro and non pro pc parts store, etc. are all fine with this card. edit: I understand Azure is a recurring payment with potential upcost at some point or another and that the examples I gave are one time payment but then they really should find a way to let me try their stuff for free as they say they want or just stop giving me resources if the card is declined.
FriendlyNormie 6y ago
Shut up you bootlicking cunt.

by Aachen 6y ago

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago

Maybe it's technically illegal. I don't care. In the USA, it would be civil issue not a criminal one anyway. They can sue me if they like. As far as the morality portion of things is concerned, I don't consider what they are doing moral anyway and I sleep fine at night.

berkes 6y ago

From "koopovereenkomst" I assume you are Dutch or Belgian. In the Netherlands, a "koopovereenkomst" most often means you have a "payment obligation" (betaalverplichting). The whole invoicing system where people pay afterwards, hinges on this principle. Disclaimer: IANAL (But I helped as software developer at a factoring company: which buys unpaid invoices from freelancers for a fee or a percentage of the invoice-amount)

vosper 6y ago
> a factoring company: which buys unpaid invoices from freelancers for a fee or a percentage of the invoice-amount Getting way off-topic here, but I’ve never heard of this. Is it like a bill-collector for freelancers? Who do the non-payers tend to be - is it companies who think they can stiff a freelancer, but who will pay up when someone with teeth comes knocking? Also, can anyone sell an invoice on to someone else to collect it, or does that possibility have to be written into the initial contract between the freelancer and the employer?
- jsmith99 6y ago
  Not sure about freelancers specifically but factoring is normally used by small companies to reduce short term capital requirements, as most companies will only pay invoices after 30 days and some have payment terms of much longer eg 90 days. Anyone can factor an invoice and if it was issued by a large and credit worthy company then this is a cheap way to access secured credit.
  - illirik 6y ago
    More recently, see the development of reverse factoring, where the customer initiates financing for its purchases from its suppliers. It's dangerous, as you can imagine; if the customer can't pay for its invoices, instead of being indebted to a supplier, they are in default to their creditor. See Greensill, a $1.5bn-from-Softbank startup that is involved in several recent crises among its creditors in the UK (see https://www.ft.com/content/d5a5951f-bab8-4ea8-b0d7-2b70455c9ed5 https://www.ft.com/content/d5a5951f-bab8-4ea8-b0d7-2b70455c9..., and for a more indepth explanation of what reverse factoring is (with jokes also), see https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-iyz8z-e06e88 https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-iyz8z-e06e88)
  - vosper 6y ago
    Thanks, this makes sense. Do you have any idea what the factor’s cut is? It can’t be too much, because otherwise the freelancer would wait for direct payment - unless they are really tight for money - so my gut feeling is somewhere between 5% - 10%
- mattmanser 6y ago
  These are debt collectors, you've definitely heard of them, and they're all super shady. This is just how it works. A normal business, say your bank or you energy supplier or your software supplier, will try and recover a debt with some basic attempts. But then they'll bundle together all their debts and sell them to debt collectors for pennies on the pound. Don't know why they're called a factoring company in Holland.
  - mcv 6y ago
tluyben2 6y ago
Being from the Netherlands and having had a company there for 30 years, I know how well the law works; I have had many companies simply not paying invoices. And because the amounts are small (few 1000 usually) they get away with it without issues. We have tried everything: even winning in court but they still did not pay. Possession indeed is 9/10 of the law. So I would not worry about it too much not paying some Adobe bill.

rkangel 6y ago

No, it's almost certainly not legal. They're unlikely to pursue for damages though, and it doesn't feel unethical to me.

willcipriano 6y ago
It's legal, you just still owe them the money. Nothing is stopping you from canceling a debit card that you have active reoccurring payments on, just if your mortgage was one of those the bank can still find you in default. Similarly if Adobe owed you money they may make you run through a customer service maze in order to get it. That's legal too. They don't have to provide you with a method to automatically take as much money as you assume you are owed.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  You left out the part where they sell the debt you have with them to a debt collector who will then ruin your credit score.

tobyhinloopen 6y ago

I did the same. I just stopped paying and told my CC company to block transactions because I never agreed to them. Adobe is very unclear about what you’re actually agreeing to up until the point you’re cancelling. I just blocked transactions and never heard from them again (except for some emails). If they want to fight it, good luck winning it in Dutch courts when the conditions are unclear.

wodenokoto 6y ago
Everybody on the net is always like "Just told my bank to block the transaction" - when I did that, in a EU country, my bank was very reluctant. They wanted proof that I had been in contact with the company and tried to get a refund from them, and that I in fact didn't owe them money.
- wila 6y ago
  Yep same experience with a US company that had gone broke, publicly said so on their website, yet still had renewed a subscription I had with them after the public statement that they would no longer deliver anything. Ended up with months of paperwork, claims from the other party that I ordered it myself (no idea where as the website to order was gone) including printouts of Stripe with my IP address which was supposed to prove their point. Five or six mail forms to fill out (yes _mail_ not email) over the period of months with very strict deadlines. They must have gathered the IP address from an earlier transaction a year before that. It also did not raise any flags that the transaction was exactly one year later on the minute. An incredible waste of my time and if I had to go through all of that again I will just let it go.
- BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  In contrast, I asked my French bank to do this once and they did immediately. The problem is between me and the vendor, not the bank.
- gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
  Exactly. I tried to reverse some charges. The bank told me I had to file a police report. I did find that the company returned the money pretty promptly when I told them I was reporting them to the police...

teekert 6y ago

Here in the Netherlands Adobe breaks our laws by not allowing one to cancel a subscription every month after the first year. It took me 45 min on the phone and 4 forwards and saying expressly that they were breaking the law before they cancelled the subscription. No more Adobe for me. All conversations could only be done in English, something my wife would already be pretty uncomfortable with.

johnchristopher 6y ago

I recently wanted to get some practical knowledge with cloud storage buckets and my first choice was Azure (for no other reasons that name was shrouded with mystery). Free trial, etc. I give my phone number (something like "for legal reasons"). Then it asks for my CC. I already hate it because it's highly dubious they need my CC number for a free trial since it's not needed to deliver the product. Fine, I give it. Then the process is declined because they don't like my rechargeable CC. I am a happy AWS freeloader and potential customer now (well, for one year at least).

rootsudo 6y ago
Well, to shed insight on Azure. 1. Phone number is required to minimize fake/bot/fraudulent use accounts. 2. Credit card is required in case you want to immediately scale up, and also, used as anti fraud as depending on the card used, and address is used to judge you as a customer and whether or not you should be disabled immediately upon account creation. Credit cards first six numbers are the BIN, or bank identification number, these are used to sort whom the issuing bank is, what type of credit card line, and whether or not it is a virtual or such. These are compounded to give you an antifraud score. Address and connecting IP address help too. So that's why it was denied, but for a company like Micrsoft, their billing practices are very much streamlined and not so hidden vs other companies nor do they introduce "tricky" language such as Adobe's yearly contract, payable monthly SAAS.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  > 2. Credit card is required in case you want to immediately scale up, and also, used as anti fraud as depending on the card used, and address is used to judge you as a customer and whether or not you should be disabled immediately upon account creation. That's not what MS says the credit card is for (edit: which doesn't mean they aren't using it the way you explained they do): > We ask for your credit card number to verify your identity and to keep out spam and bots. You won’t be charged unless you upgrade. They don't want me because of my CC (I specifically want a pre-paid CC I can put money on as I need it and can never be overcharged) because my CC can't be easily charged in case I forget to cancel the service. Amazon, PSN store, paypal, online clothing store, pro and non pro pc parts store, etc. are all fine with this card. edit: I understand Azure is a recurring payment with potential upcost at some point or another and that the examples I gave are one time payment but then they really should find a way to let me try their stuff for free as they say they want or just stop giving me resources if the card is declined.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago

Shut up you bootlicking cunt.