6 ms·

You're making the hard assumption that, by distributing a UBI, people will just sit around and do nothing. There is no data to back this statement up, and it's

You're making the hard assumption that, by distributing a UBI, people will just sit around and do nothing. There is no data to back this statement up, and it's very likely that people will actually work more while on UBI. UBI is designed to provide _choice_ for workers, not force them to do something they don't want to do. For all we know, UBI could lead to solving some of the worlds biggest problems by giving people, who otherwise wouldn't be able to, the freedom to solve problems they're interested in, not just work some dead end job to barely make ends meet. You'd be surprised at how much better humans are at doing things when they actually like doing them. Let's let the studies roll out before making assumptions. I do, however, believe these studies are much too removed from reality to prove much of anything. The dataset is much too small and 36 months isn't a great deal of time. We will see.

bilal4hmed 6y ago
Look at the middle east, countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades. Using your logic they should be ruling the world. Instead it has created a dependent population, unwilling to work and needing an army of immigrants to do the work at horrible conditions.
- joubert 6y ago
  > Look at the middle east, countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades. False, according the the World Bank : “Currently, no country has a UBI in place, although there have been (and still are) several small-scale pilots and a few larger-scale experiences. Only two countries—Mongolia and the Islamic Republic of Iran—had a national UBI in place for a short period of time.“ https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/socialprotection/publication/exploring-universal-basic-income-a-guide-to-navigating-concepts-evidence-and-practices https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/socialprotection/publicat...
  - bilal4hmed 6y ago
    that is false, living in the Middle East and know whats up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(S... https://basicincome.org/news/2011/05/kuwait-a-temporary-partial-basic-income-for-citizens-only/ https://basicincome.org/news/2011/05/kuwait-a-temporary-part...
    - joubert 6y ago
      Thanks for those links. It got me reading more to deepen my understanding. I should say that my intent is not to invalidate your living experience, but rather to learn more. Here’s what I’ve found so far: Saudi Arabia - dependence on foreign labor (since you claimed UBI is the cause): “ In answer to the question of why the Saudi economy is so dependent on foreign labor, the UN Arab Human Development Report blamed stunted social and economic development inhibited by lack of personal freedom, poor education and government hiring based on factors other than merit, and exclusion of women.” See “Challenges” section in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia - Reminded myself again that Saudi Arabia was a subsistence economy until the early 1930s, before their oil-based economy started. - learned about the difficulties and the strategies (incl. the Citizens Account Program you linked to) to reduce dependency on oil reserves. - Learned that the Citizens Account Program was introduced in 2017, so claims to its effect prior to that seems incorrect, unless there was some prior form of it. Kuwait The article you linked to describes a temporary program that ended 7 years ago. I did find other articles that talk about work incentives (e.g. https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides-universal-basic-income https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides...) but haven’t digested and critically evaluated to draw a confident conclusion. Overall observation Your opening assertion (“ countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades.”) doesn’t appear to be a fair appraisal.
      - bilal4hmed 6y ago
        No worries, as you can imagine getting information about the programs in these countries at times can be tough :) In general, being a citizen of a Gulf Cooperation Council gives you the following 1) Free healthcare 2) Free education including study abroad 3) Stipend monthly 4) Free electricity and water Other countries may have more or a little less. Like qataris get an allocation of land if they marry another citizen. The general qatari population is 15% while immigrant population is 85%. They might have different names for it or its obfuscated but a form of UBI has been going on for decades, since I have friends who are nationals and ive been here for 30+ years. The information might not be freely available. Here is a page from the archive about Qatar https://web.archive.org/web/20150430001945/https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/topics/Family,+Community+and+Religion/Social+Protection+and+Welfare https://web.archive.org/web/20150430001945/https://portal.ww... . It is no longer live, but they mention an adequate income
dageshi 6y ago
I don't think there's any data to prove that they wouldn't? Honestly what's more likely to happen is, the people who have always been self motivated to drive themselves towards goals will still succeed, the ones who would be pretty happy just playing video games and getting stoned/drunk will have an easier way of doing just that.
- w-m 6y ago
  And where exactly is the problem with that?
  - zhoujianfu 6y ago
    Exactly! Sounds pretty good if everybody gets to do what makes them personally happy..
  - p2hari 6y ago
    Who pays for this going forward? (Right now it says it is driven by donations). So there is a group of people motivated to succeed and work towards it and pay taxes to allow a bunch of people to do what they like to do (getting stoned and playing video games)
  - michannne 6y ago
    What is the problem when you reward people for not contributing anything?
    - w-m 6y ago
      I wouldn't see that as rewarding someone, but rather meeting their basic needs. Like Germany already does with health care and unemployment benefits, but doing away with the bureaucratic hassles and penalties, and increasing the money to an actual liveable amount. For me it's a question about how we want to transform society in the long term, I don't think UBI for all will come next year. I'd give back the following question: why are we rewarding people currently for doing mind-numbing bullshit jobs?
michannne 6y ago
I find it interesting that even after a worldwide pandemic has proved that the majority of humans will prefer to act selfishly to maintain their own comfort level, you still somehow hold out hope that given literally free money, that the majority wouldn't also use this money selfishly to maintain their comfort level.
- GrinningFool 6y ago
  > find it interesting that even after a worldwide pandemic has proved that the majority of humans will prefer to act selfishly to maintain their own comfort level Has that been proven?
  - michannne 6y ago
    The majority of humans are indeed acting selfishly to maintain their own comfort level, yes. You can argue that they aren't, in which case I'd like to see the indication that either A) the majority of people are acting in the interest of others when they go about their daily business spreading the illness, or B) the majority of people are not preferring to maintain their comfort level. It is proven for me as I can see both A and B are false.
- zestyping 6y ago
  Having purpose and fulfillment is self-serving. Most people would find it depressing to sit around and do nothing.
  - michannne 6y ago
    So I should somehow believe that regular people, most of whom already have an excess of money after you deduct necessary survival expenses, will suddenly become artists and creators when given just a bit more money? This thread is laughable, and shows just how little semblance any opinions here have with reality

bilal4hmed 6y ago

Look at the middle east, countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades. Using your logic they should be ruling the world. Instead it has created a dependent population, unwilling to work and needing an army of immigrants to do the work at horrible conditions.

joubert 6y ago
> Look at the middle east, countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades. False, according the the World Bank : “Currently, no country has a UBI in place, although there have been (and still are) several small-scale pilots and a few larger-scale experiences. Only two countries—Mongolia and the Islamic Republic of Iran—had a national UBI in place for a short period of time.“ https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/socialprotection/publication/exploring-universal-basic-income-a-guide-to-navigating-concepts-evidence-and-practices https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/socialprotection/publicat...
- bilal4hmed 6y ago
  that is false, living in the Middle East and know whats up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(S... https://basicincome.org/news/2011/05/kuwait-a-temporary-partial-basic-income-for-citizens-only/ https://basicincome.org/news/2011/05/kuwait-a-temporary-part...
  - joubert 6y ago
    Thanks for those links. It got me reading more to deepen my understanding. I should say that my intent is not to invalidate your living experience, but rather to learn more. Here’s what I’ve found so far: Saudi Arabia - dependence on foreign labor (since you claimed UBI is the cause): “ In answer to the question of why the Saudi economy is so dependent on foreign labor, the UN Arab Human Development Report blamed stunted social and economic development inhibited by lack of personal freedom, poor education and government hiring based on factors other than merit, and exclusion of women.” See “Challenges” section in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia - Reminded myself again that Saudi Arabia was a subsistence economy until the early 1930s, before their oil-based economy started. - learned about the difficulties and the strategies (incl. the Citizens Account Program you linked to) to reduce dependency on oil reserves. - Learned that the Citizens Account Program was introduced in 2017, so claims to its effect prior to that seems incorrect, unless there was some prior form of it. Kuwait The article you linked to describes a temporary program that ended 7 years ago. I did find other articles that talk about work incentives (e.g. https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides-universal-basic-income https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides...) but haven’t digested and critically evaluated to draw a confident conclusion. Overall observation Your opening assertion (“ countries like Saudi, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar have done it for decades.”) doesn’t appear to be a fair appraisal.
    - bilal4hmed 6y ago
      No worries, as you can imagine getting information about the programs in these countries at times can be tough :) In general, being a citizen of a Gulf Cooperation Council gives you the following 1) Free healthcare 2) Free education including study abroad 3) Stipend monthly 4) Free electricity and water Other countries may have more or a little less. Like qataris get an allocation of land if they marry another citizen. The general qatari population is 15% while immigrant population is 85%. They might have different names for it or its obfuscated but a form of UBI has been going on for decades, since I have friends who are nationals and ive been here for 30+ years. The information might not be freely available. Here is a page from the archive about Qatar https://web.archive.org/web/20150430001945/https://portal.www.gov.qa/wps/portal/topics/Family,+Community+and+Religion/Social+Protection+and+Welfare https://web.archive.org/web/20150430001945/https://portal.ww... . It is no longer live, but they mention an adequate income

dageshi 6y ago

I don't think there's any data to prove that they wouldn't? Honestly what's more likely to happen is, the people who have always been self motivated to drive themselves towards goals will still succeed, the ones who would be pretty happy just playing video games and getting stoned/drunk will have an easier way of doing just that.

w-m 6y ago
And where exactly is the problem with that?
- zhoujianfu 6y ago
  Exactly! Sounds pretty good if everybody gets to do what makes them personally happy..
- p2hari 6y ago
  Who pays for this going forward? (Right now it says it is driven by donations). So there is a group of people motivated to succeed and work towards it and pay taxes to allow a bunch of people to do what they like to do (getting stoned and playing video games)
- michannne 6y ago
  What is the problem when you reward people for not contributing anything?
  - w-m 6y ago
    I wouldn't see that as rewarding someone, but rather meeting their basic needs. Like Germany already does with health care and unemployment benefits, but doing away with the bureaucratic hassles and penalties, and increasing the money to an actual liveable amount. For me it's a question about how we want to transform society in the long term, I don't think UBI for all will come next year. I'd give back the following question: why are we rewarding people currently for doing mind-numbing bullshit jobs?

michannne 6y ago

I find it interesting that even after a worldwide pandemic has proved that the majority of humans will prefer to act selfishly to maintain their own comfort level, you still somehow hold out hope that given literally free money, that the majority wouldn't also use this money selfishly to maintain their comfort level.

GrinningFool 6y ago
> find it interesting that even after a worldwide pandemic has proved that the majority of humans will prefer to act selfishly to maintain their own comfort level Has that been proven?
- michannne 6y ago
  The majority of humans are indeed acting selfishly to maintain their own comfort level, yes. You can argue that they aren't, in which case I'd like to see the indication that either A) the majority of people are acting in the interest of others when they go about their daily business spreading the illness, or B) the majority of people are not preferring to maintain their comfort level. It is proven for me as I can see both A and B are false.
zestyping 6y ago
Having purpose and fulfillment is self-serving. Most people would find it depressing to sit around and do nothing.
- michannne 6y ago
  So I should somehow believe that regular people, most of whom already have an excess of money after you deduct necessary survival expenses, will suddenly become artists and creators when given just a bit more money? This thread is laughable, and shows just how little semblance any opinions here have with reality