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Did the "shutdown normal gym" mean that patrons would be violating whatever policies forced the gym to shutdown in the first place? If so, that really bothers

Did the "shutdown normal gym" mean that patrons would be violating whatever policies forced the gym to shutdown in the first place? If so, that really bothers me. Any excess contagion would endanger everyone, not just the gym users. Please consider reporting the details to the appropriate authorities. EDIT: If someone is inclined to downvote this comment, I'd be very grateful for a clarification why (comment or DM). I'm trying to address some problems in my communication style, and I can't always infer how I could have done better.

dublin 6y ago
You are making the fallacious assumption that the Wuhan virus actually endangers everyone. It doesn't - we know that many groups are only minimally affected. The way to get back to normal is to get back to normal. "Fifteen days to flatten the curve" has morphed into "as long as it takes to crush the economy". We are now at the point of no return for most small businesses, without which the economy of the modern world cannot exist - so it's either open up now, or welcome the fall of civilization.
- mauflows 6y ago
  Or you know Congress could spend some money as the fed chairman has called for
  - dublin 6y ago
    Where is that money going to come from, if we've destroyed the engine of the economy? Small business is the engine of the economy, and since they can't afford FAANG's Irish Double Dutch sandwich tax dodges, they actually pay most of the taxes. With small businesses and their employees gone and not paying taxes, there is quite simply no money to spend. History shows that you can only print your way out of such a situation for a very short time...
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Yet the printing press has had no problem running to keep interest rates low and the wall street casino bubblin'. We're getting the worst of both worlds. Many small businesses wouldn't be going bankrupt if there weren't a debt black hole expecting to consume much of their surplus via rent.
    - joubert 6y ago
      > Small business is the engine of the economy For context, from the SBA’s advocacy page (2019): “ U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of the goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States. Across the 16 years from 1998 to 2014, the small business share of GDP has fallen from 48.0 percent to 43.5 percent. Over the same period, the amount of small business GDP has grown by about 25 percent in real terms, or 1.4 percent annually. However, real GDP for large businesses has grown faster, at 2.5 percent annually.” I have not critically considered whether or not these statistics are the best indicator of the most effective contribution to the economy (or society). https://advocacy.sba.gov/2019/01/30/small-businesses-generate-44-percent-of-u-s-economic-activity/ https://advocacy.sba.gov/2019/01/30/small-businesses-generat...
ReptileMan 6y ago
And what if the polices were wrong? I have looked at the data and came to the conclusion that the danger from covid is tiny (to see how low - check qatar - probably the country with most extensive testing) and preventing is totally not worth it the sacrifices and damage to society. Qatar has 44000 cases per 1m pop and 69 deaths per 1m. That is not much higher than flu.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  What else is Qatar doing? What does Qatar do to a person who is confirmed infected? Does the same action occur to someone with the flu? What is Qatar asking it's population to do differently today, compared to this time a year ago? Does that have any meaningful impact on transmission rates?
  - ReptileMan 6y ago
    It's pretty locked down. You have an app that unless it's says healthy you are not allowed into any public place. I illustrated it as a place in which there is so much mass testing that the mortality figures are more fact than fiction.
    - komali2 6y ago
      You deny the fact that at least 172,000 Americans have died from covid?
      - ReptileMan 6y ago
        No. Is that much for a nation of 333 000 000? People die all the time. Covid just frontloads some death for old people and ones with comorbirbidities.
        cmrx64 6y ago
        how is it that almost 6 months have passed and this same syllogism gets trotted out repeatedly? this is 1. factually incorrect, 2. morally reprehensible. everyone dies eventually and gets sick with something else someday. let’s just front load all the death into 2020 and get it done with forever, eh?
hammock 6y ago
Downvoting because it's none of your business. Honest question - and if you choose to downvote me I'd ask you extend me the same courtesy you asked for - how is a gymgoer endangering you, if you are staying 6ft from all others, wearing a mask, washing your hands and not touching your face?
- strbean 6y ago
  > how is a gymgoer endangering you Perhaps they are an essential worker, and don't have the option to stay at home? Perhaps they have medical issues that leave them immunocompromised and may require hospitalization, putting them at a high risk of death from exposure to COVID patients? Perhaps they are unemployed or at risk of unemployment due to pandemic restrictions, and the irresponsible behavior of people who are too cool to do body weight exercises at home could directly harm them by lengthening the time these restrictions are necessary? "It's none of your business if other people break the law in a way that harms others."
  - matz1 6y ago
    All of these risk exist in the past with flu and other diseases, should we then always shutdown ?
    - ta17711771 6y ago
      The infectiousness and lifeline of this virus is pretty uniquely long, for the record.
    - watwut 6y ago
      Given that difference between flu and covid is generally known at this time, trying to use flu as analogy is awfully bad faith argument.
    - strbean 6y ago
      The risk exists of getting impaled with a piece of rebar falling from a construction site. So how dare you criticize people for stabbing others?
anewguy9000 6y ago
i downvoted you because of the suggestion of reporting to the authorities. disband the authorities!
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Thanks truly for the clarification. It's a relief to know your downvote wasn't because I communicated badly.
- emteycz 6y ago
  I agree, but that's not a reason to downvote. Try to discuss instead.
abfan1127 6y ago
Its likely you're getting down voted for being a snitch. Normally, I'd down vote you for this (as people down vote my posts which disagree with their opinions regardless of facts presented), but I take great joy in seeing how many down votes I can get ruffling feathers. Others aren't like me.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  /r/iamverybadass
  - abfan1127 6y ago
    funny. :)
dec0dedab0de 6y ago
on HN it is common practice to downvote when you do not agree with someone, but don't have any new information to add that is worthy of a comment. So basically don't worry about votes. If you start getting flagged that is a different story.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  I appreciate the advice! I've made peace with HN's unexplained downvotes in general. Still, I'm trying hard to improve my communication style, so any feedback I can get regarding bad/good tone in my comments is super helpful.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - milesvp 6y ago
    I suspect the downvotes are related to the comment to report. HN tends to lean anti authoritarian, so the idea of reporting someone doesn’t tend to sit well here. I’m on the fence with something like this. Covid-19 isn’t turning out to be nearly as scary as it looked like it might be in December (at least based on rumors coming out of wuhan). I still feel like there’s information at a high level (security clearance type stuff) that we don’t get to see, and so have to assume the stay stay at home orders are still founded. That said, people in the US can only maintain this type of social distancing so long. A lot of people are reaching a breaking point. And if some speakeasy gyms help prevent a massive ‘fuck it’ style rave, then it might be a lesser of 2 evils kind of thing.
sneak 6y ago
Reporting to the authorities in the US means calling the police. Don’t call the police in America. Furthermore, virus or no virus, the right to peacefully assemble is a human right that cannot legally or morally be abridged. I don’t want the police to shut down protests. I also don’t want them to shut down gyms, or voting, or churches, or any other peaceful reason (dumb) people wish to assemble. Assembly in the middle of a pandemic is stupid and irresponsible. I don’t do it. I also don’t want men with guns stopping those that do. You can’t fix (or stop) stupid with a Glock and a uniform, which is what TFA is illustrating.
- TylerE 6y ago
  > Reporting to the authorities in the US means calling the police. No it doesn't. It could mean code enforcement, or the health department.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Same deal. If either of those groups tell you to close (and they already have, in the case of speakeasy gyms), who do you think shows up next to make sure you’re closed? It’s not men carrying clipboards. They’re carrying pistols, and they have machine guns in the trunk of the vehicle they drove there. DO NOT call the state to solve your problems. If you wouldn’t solve the problem by taking a gun over there, don’t call someone else to do that.
    - dwaltrip 6y ago
      We live in a society. There are rules and consequences to breaking them.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        That doesn't mean that we have to agree with the rules or the way they are enforced. However if you are not in agreement with the majority your options are war or not reporting others for their rule breaking. In general war is not a good option.
helaoban 6y ago
You're being down-voted because snitches get stitches. Don't be the neighborhood rat.
- tomn 6y ago
  That's not a logical reason. Rules in society are supposed to exist to the benefit of everyone. We can have a discussion about whether this particular rule really does benefit everyone, but clearly the ones that do should be respected, otherwise what's the point?
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  > You're being down-voted because snitches get stitches. Don't be the neighborhood rat. That ethic is really counterintuitive to me. I'd be really interested if you want to expound on it a bit. E.g., Are there limits to where you'd apply it? Does it apply to laws that you (personally) do want to have vigorously enforced?
  - helaoban 6y ago
    Yes of course there are limits, nothing should be held as an absolute. I also don't think it's a very complicated ethic, you follow it until it's no longer the right thing to do. As another commenter noted, rape and murder etc. obviously don't apply. Most people can come to decisions like this without the mediation of a legal system. In this particular case, I don't think that ratting on gym owners who are trying to salvage their livelihoods by serving willing customers is worthy of reporting to the authorities. Never thought I'd see the day where Americans turn in their neighbors to the state.
- Dudenoso 6y ago
  And no one should report rapists, robbers or money launderers, amirite?
  - helaoban 6y ago
    That's a lazy strawman. The people operating these businesses are doing what they can to survive, and they are dealing with willing customers. Both parties are exercising personal responsibility. Equating this kind of thing with murder and rape is juvenile.
jcomis 6y ago
yes, they said they were now a private club.
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24211833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24211833.

dublin 6y ago

You are making the fallacious assumption that the Wuhan virus actually endangers everyone. It doesn't - we know that many groups are only minimally affected. The way to get back to normal is to get back to normal. "Fifteen days to flatten the curve" has morphed into "as long as it takes to crush the economy". We are now at the point of no return for most small businesses, without which the economy of the modern world cannot exist - so it's either open up now, or welcome the fall of civilization.

mauflows 6y ago
Or you know Congress could spend some money as the fed chairman has called for
- dublin 6y ago
  Where is that money going to come from, if we've destroyed the engine of the economy? Small business is the engine of the economy, and since they can't afford FAANG's Irish Double Dutch sandwich tax dodges, they actually pay most of the taxes. With small businesses and their employees gone and not paying taxes, there is quite simply no money to spend. History shows that you can only print your way out of such a situation for a very short time...
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Yet the printing press has had no problem running to keep interest rates low and the wall street casino bubblin'. We're getting the worst of both worlds. Many small businesses wouldn't be going bankrupt if there weren't a debt black hole expecting to consume much of their surplus via rent.
  - joubert 6y ago
    > Small business is the engine of the economy For context, from the SBA’s advocacy page (2019): “ U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of the goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States. Across the 16 years from 1998 to 2014, the small business share of GDP has fallen from 48.0 percent to 43.5 percent. Over the same period, the amount of small business GDP has grown by about 25 percent in real terms, or 1.4 percent annually. However, real GDP for large businesses has grown faster, at 2.5 percent annually.” I have not critically considered whether or not these statistics are the best indicator of the most effective contribution to the economy (or society). https://advocacy.sba.gov/2019/01/30/small-businesses-generate-44-percent-of-u-s-economic-activity/ https://advocacy.sba.gov/2019/01/30/small-businesses-generat...

ReptileMan 6y ago

And what if the polices were wrong? I have looked at the data and came to the conclusion that the danger from covid is tiny (to see how low - check qatar - probably the country with most extensive testing) and preventing is totally not worth it the sacrifices and damage to society. Qatar has 44000 cases per 1m pop and 69 deaths per 1m. That is not much higher than flu.

oarsinsync 6y ago
What else is Qatar doing? What does Qatar do to a person who is confirmed infected? Does the same action occur to someone with the flu? What is Qatar asking it's population to do differently today, compared to this time a year ago? Does that have any meaningful impact on transmission rates?
- ReptileMan 6y ago
  It's pretty locked down. You have an app that unless it's says healthy you are not allowed into any public place. I illustrated it as a place in which there is so much mass testing that the mortality figures are more fact than fiction.
  - komali2 6y ago
    You deny the fact that at least 172,000 Americans have died from covid?
    - ReptileMan 6y ago
      No. Is that much for a nation of 333 000 000? People die all the time. Covid just frontloads some death for old people and ones with comorbirbidities.
      - cmrx64 6y ago
        how is it that almost 6 months have passed and this same syllogism gets trotted out repeatedly? this is 1. factually incorrect, 2. morally reprehensible. everyone dies eventually and gets sick with something else someday. let’s just front load all the death into 2020 and get it done with forever, eh?

hammock 6y ago

Downvoting because it's none of your business. Honest question - and if you choose to downvote me I'd ask you extend me the same courtesy you asked for - how is a gymgoer endangering you, if you are staying 6ft from all others, wearing a mask, washing your hands and not touching your face?

strbean 6y ago
> how is a gymgoer endangering you Perhaps they are an essential worker, and don't have the option to stay at home? Perhaps they have medical issues that leave them immunocompromised and may require hospitalization, putting them at a high risk of death from exposure to COVID patients? Perhaps they are unemployed or at risk of unemployment due to pandemic restrictions, and the irresponsible behavior of people who are too cool to do body weight exercises at home could directly harm them by lengthening the time these restrictions are necessary? "It's none of your business if other people break the law in a way that harms others."
- matz1 6y ago
  All of these risk exist in the past with flu and other diseases, should we then always shutdown ?
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    The infectiousness and lifeline of this virus is pretty uniquely long, for the record.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Given that difference between flu and covid is generally known at this time, trying to use flu as analogy is awfully bad faith argument.
  - strbean 6y ago
    The risk exists of getting impaled with a piece of rebar falling from a construction site. So how dare you criticize people for stabbing others?

anewguy9000 6y ago

i downvoted you because of the suggestion of reporting to the authorities. disband the authorities!

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
Thanks truly for the clarification. It's a relief to know your downvote wasn't because I communicated badly.
emteycz 6y ago
I agree, but that's not a reason to downvote. Try to discuss instead.

abfan1127 6y ago

Its likely you're getting down voted for being a snitch. Normally, I'd down vote you for this (as people down vote my posts which disagree with their opinions regardless of facts presented), but I take great joy in seeing how many down votes I can get ruffling feathers. Others aren't like me.

kingkawn 6y ago
/r/iamverybadass
- abfan1127 6y ago
  funny. :)

dec0dedab0de 6y ago

on HN it is common practice to downvote when you do not agree with someone, but don't have any new information to add that is worthy of a comment. So basically don't worry about votes. If you start getting flagged that is a different story.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
I appreciate the advice! I've made peace with HN's unexplained downvotes in general. Still, I'm trying hard to improve my communication style, so any feedback I can get regarding bad/good tone in my comments is super helpful.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- milesvp 6y ago
  I suspect the downvotes are related to the comment to report. HN tends to lean anti authoritarian, so the idea of reporting someone doesn’t tend to sit well here. I’m on the fence with something like this. Covid-19 isn’t turning out to be nearly as scary as it looked like it might be in December (at least based on rumors coming out of wuhan). I still feel like there’s information at a high level (security clearance type stuff) that we don’t get to see, and so have to assume the stay stay at home orders are still founded. That said, people in the US can only maintain this type of social distancing so long. A lot of people are reaching a breaking point. And if some speakeasy gyms help prevent a massive ‘fuck it’ style rave, then it might be a lesser of 2 evils kind of thing.

sneak 6y ago

Reporting to the authorities in the US means calling the police. Don’t call the police in America. Furthermore, virus or no virus, the right to peacefully assemble is a human right that cannot legally or morally be abridged. I don’t want the police to shut down protests. I also don’t want them to shut down gyms, or voting, or churches, or any other peaceful reason (dumb) people wish to assemble. Assembly in the middle of a pandemic is stupid and irresponsible. I don’t do it. I also don’t want men with guns stopping those that do. You can’t fix (or stop) stupid with a Glock and a uniform, which is what TFA is illustrating.

TylerE 6y ago
> Reporting to the authorities in the US means calling the police. No it doesn't. It could mean code enforcement, or the health department.
- sneak 6y ago
  Same deal. If either of those groups tell you to close (and they already have, in the case of speakeasy gyms), who do you think shows up next to make sure you’re closed? It’s not men carrying clipboards. They’re carrying pistols, and they have machine guns in the trunk of the vehicle they drove there. DO NOT call the state to solve your problems. If you wouldn’t solve the problem by taking a gun over there, don’t call someone else to do that.
  - dwaltrip 6y ago
    We live in a society. There are rules and consequences to breaking them.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      That doesn't mean that we have to agree with the rules or the way they are enforced. However if you are not in agreement with the majority your options are war or not reporting others for their rule breaking. In general war is not a good option.

helaoban 6y ago

You're being down-voted because snitches get stitches. Don't be the neighborhood rat.

tomn 6y ago
That's not a logical reason. Rules in society are supposed to exist to the benefit of everyone. We can have a discussion about whether this particular rule really does benefit everyone, but clearly the ones that do should be respected, otherwise what's the point?
DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> You're being down-voted because snitches get stitches. Don't be the neighborhood rat. That ethic is really counterintuitive to me. I'd be really interested if you want to expound on it a bit. E.g., Are there limits to where you'd apply it? Does it apply to laws that you (personally) do want to have vigorously enforced?
- helaoban 6y ago
  Yes of course there are limits, nothing should be held as an absolute. I also don't think it's a very complicated ethic, you follow it until it's no longer the right thing to do. As another commenter noted, rape and murder etc. obviously don't apply. Most people can come to decisions like this without the mediation of a legal system. In this particular case, I don't think that ratting on gym owners who are trying to salvage their livelihoods by serving willing customers is worthy of reporting to the authorities. Never thought I'd see the day where Americans turn in their neighbors to the state.
Dudenoso 6y ago
And no one should report rapists, robbers or money launderers, amirite?
- helaoban 6y ago
  That's a lazy strawman. The people operating these businesses are doing what they can to survive, and they are dealing with willing customers. Both parties are exercising personal responsibility. Equating this kind of thing with murder and rape is juvenile.

jcomis 6y ago

yes, they said they were now a private club.

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24211833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24211833.