10 ms·
From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever
by 0x402DF854 6y ago
From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion:
> Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”
- pwinnski 6y agoSome might see a difference between "a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store" and a developer who deliberately violated the policies and then filed a lawsuit and started an extensive PR campaign.
- ProAm 6y ago> a developer who deliberately violated the policies Are you talking about Netflix?
- ascagnel_ 6y agoI'm unaware of any current legal action Netflix is taking against Apple.
- senko 6y agoThat's not what the parent said.
- pwinnski 6y agoI listed three conditions: "[1] violated the policies and then [2] filed a lawsuit and [3] started an extensive PR campaign" Netflix arguably did the first, but I don't recall them doing either of the other two things.
- ProAm 6y agoBecause they were not kicked from the app store for doing so.
- misnome 6y agoCome on, I don't think anyone is pretending that this wasn't a deliberate provocation by Epic
- arcticbull 6y agoI guess so, but so what? Deliberately provoking a potentially illegal act to litigate it is fair game. It doesn't legitimize the move by Apple, nor does it invalidate Epic's claim. If they want to play high-stakes poker, they better have good attorneys, but that's life in the American judicial system.
- misnome 6y agoBut... it does describe the difference between Netflix, which is what the thread is about?
- damnyou 6y agoSuffering a harm is how one gets standing to sue.
- naikrovek 6y agoSuffering harm is how one sues and wins, yes. Anyone can sue for anything and quickly lose, but to have any hope of winning, you must be harmed.
- burnte 6y agoIt was an invitation for Apple to screw up. They could have just banned the app. Instead they went full nuclear. Apple stepped in the trap.
- mirthflat83 6y agoA PR campaign geared towards kids... which is quite embarrassing
- jrhurst 6y agoAll that really will matter is how the government and courts see it. Those words will be used in court.
- modeless 6y agoEpic needed to demonstrate that they and consumers were harmed in order to have standing to sue. If Apple's policies are illegal then Epic is not bound to follow them and retaliation is unjustified. It won't be known until it's decided in court. That's why Epic's motion should be granted to prevent retaliation until the court decides.
- naikrovek 6y agoYes, this exactly. I hope everyone reads this.
- zip1234 6y agoHow would Apple's policies be illegal? Epic entered a contractual agreement with Apple and then knowingly and intentionally broke it in order to benefit themselves.
- laser 6y agoI'm not a lawyer, but presumably because there's US antitrust law, under which the courts may find Apple's contractual impositions to be illegal. They may also find they are legal, but if the court has any doubt they should grant Epic's request to stop retaliation.
- ChrisLomont 6y agoI doubt this is antitrust. There's a zillion other places to sell a game (as Epic has shown). If you want to claim the entire market in question to be Apple products, I doubt that will get very far. Everything is a monopoly when you make your market hyper specific.
- tc313 6y agoWell that’s Epic’s argument, so it’s the question that the courts will resolve in this case.
- ben-schaaf 6y ago
- yholio 6y agoYour sentence for today to write 100 times, Bart Simpson style, is: "I shall never use my monopoly power to restrict access to justice for my clients".
- AcerbicZero 6y agoIts a little surprising how effective that PR campaign has been so far.
- pldr2244 6y agoIt’s possible there are other forces at work here. Tencent is an owner in Epic Games/Fortnite. This may be a show of demonstrating their importance/reach to consumers, to proactively make Trump and the US government afraid of going after them to divest assets. Yet I still hope Trump forces them to divest assets. And I’m dumbfounded how anyone here could care to stand for Epic Games with their association to the CCP.
- 627467 6y agoSome might also see that to breakthrough a totalitarian platform good coordination of efforts (lawsuits, PR, etc) are needed.
- koboll 6y agoSome might. But Tim Cook seems not to, because his answer, "We do not retaliate or bully people", was unequivocal.
- victords 6y agoIt’s still retaliation. No way around that.
- nomel 6y agoSome would consider this enforcement, which is not the same as retaliation.
- manquer 6y agoHow so ? They are pulling access to all platforms including desktop, also unreal is sdk/library used by ton of third parties , all of them are impacted too
- judge2020 6y agoIt's equal enforcement among all developers. Every other time that a developer has intentionally broken app store guidelines Apple has terminated their entire Developer account.
- manquer 6y agoepic size orgs would not just use one account. It includes preview access and to clot products . In my experience , I usually sign different agreements with different products for such diverse access . Sometimes it is with different legal entities . I don’t know if Apple does an MSA which is the kind of document which covers the general engagement , so unless such a MSA exists and allows for this kind of termination , I am pretty sure this cannot be done for violating guidelines of single agreement to cancel other contracts in place. Apple probably has clauses to unilaterally terminate agreements and is invoking that, but that is not remotely the same as closing down a account for violating guidelines
- romanoderoma 6y agoWell mafia could say the same thing But if you use a gun like Apple did...
- fxtentacle 6y agoThe acceptable punishment part is when Apple closes the Fortnite developer account. The unacceptable retaliation is that Apple threatens to close the developer accounts of everyone working on the Unreal Engine, which is used in millions of projects in addition to Fortnite. What Apple is doing here is akin to mafia punching your sister to get you to pay up.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y agoWhy closing Fortnite developer account is acceptable? If they have one app that was banned for 'violating guidelines', and another one that doesn't violate anything, why should the second app be removed, too? Because the unruly developer must be punished?
- stedaniels 6y agoThis is their standard TOS.
- askl56 6y agohttps://twitter.com/slasher/status/1295434558112960519?s=21 https://twitter.com/slasher/status/1295434558112960519?s=21 This may have consequences for Unreal Engine too. Without a dev account, how can they maintain it?
- danudey 6y agoThey can still build and test on-device, they just won't be able to publish anything to the app store. Specifically, in XCode, they can add an Apple ID (any Apple ID) and use that to build on a device.[1] This creates a "personal team"[2] which you can use to test on your devices. [1] https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/devaf282080a https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/devaf282080a [2] https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/dev17411c009 https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/dev17411c009
- grishka 6y agoOr, alternatively, use a jailbroken device for testing and modify the SDK to not require code signing when building for ARM.
- saagarjha 6y agoI’m fairly sure the SDK is only meant to be used by approved developers.
- mvn9 6y agoWhy then all those monopoly-discussions? Cannot any program be 'side-loaded' by creating a personal team? Or the other way round: What good would be a personal team for epic if they cannot test their games on actual phones? If personal teams allow side-loading of apps, why isn't this a way to distribute apps? Why is there no app store for personal team apps?
- arcticbull 6y ago> Why is there no app store for personal team apps? Honestly, for most people the App Store is good enough. For a long, long time, it wasn't good enough, and Apple was much stricter. As it got better, Apple started loosening the restrictions around deploying whatever you want to your device. People didn't really notice, and that's because the App Store was good enough. I suspect this was the game plan all along.
- ArchOversight 6y agoThis isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Epic decided to sue Apple in court. According to the Apple Developer Program License that you agree to (section 11.2 specifically) states: > This Agreement and all rights and licenses granted by Apple hereunder and any services provided hereunder will terminate, effective immediately upon notice from Apple: > (a) if You or any of Your Authorized Developers fail to comply with any term of this Agreement other than those set forth below in this Section 11.2 and fail to cure such breach within 30 days after becoming aware of or receiving notice of such breach; and section (f): > (f) if You engage, or encourage others to engage, in any misleading, fraudulent, improper, unlawful or dishonest act relating to this Agreement, including, but not limited to, misrepresenting the nature of Your submitted Application (e.g., hiding or trying to hide functionality from Apple’s review, falsifying consumer reviews for Your Application, engaging in payment fraud, etc.). This is not retaliation, this is simply following the license agreement that Epic agreed to.
- woofie11 6y agoA one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation. Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract make it not retaliation? Apple is clearly retaliating, and I think it's gonna cost Apple way more than it realizes. Removing Epic games is one thing. This is a whole different can of worms.
- Brendinooo 6y agoI'd imagine there's a spectrum of "retaliation clauses" that includes acceptable things and unacceptable things, and that whatever is happening in the App Store is pretty different than withholding water from someone who would die without it. Epic may be smaller than Apple, but they are by no means a "little guy".
- wdr1 6y agoEpic should have done this a week or two before the hearing.
- weixiyen 6y agoMissed opportunity for sure, the video was probably taking longer than expected.
- jmull 6y agoDo you mean to imply Tim Cook lied in that statement? That doesn't work, though. Epic clearly, purposely, and egregiously violated Apple's TOS. It seems like that is the reason Apple's terminating their accounts, not in retaliation for "going public". (BTW, I think Apple needs to let companies control their own payment systems outside the App Store.)
- modeless 6y agoEpic needed to demonstrate that they and consumers were harmed in order to have standing to sue. It's not illegal to "violate" a TOS that is itself illegal. The legality of what Epic did is yet to be decided in court.
- notwutukn0 6y agoIsn’t America all about how exceptional they are and freedom? Meanwhile, not really doing much about kids in cages? Everyone is a hypocrite. Not to excuse it, it sucks. It’s not going anywhere. I for one am cheering on tech bro blood sport while pointing at it as justification for figuratively ending the weird emotional fascination. It’s a rerun. Corporatism is a circular wank, ethical grandstanding about tribal power, all while ignoring the mass manipulation of human capital to support shrinking opportunities for a growing youth population, kowtowing to the sensibilities of elderly snowflakes. Just lick grandpas boots like you’re going to, and fuck them kids, buy more shit! Damn energy vampire! /s
- kalleboo 6y agoI'm not at all on Apple's side in the App Store battle, but on this point, Apple is still consistent. Anyone breaking the App Store rules this blatantly would have their developer account terminated, wether they went public or not.
- arvinsim 6y agoIt's not consistent at all. App Store rules are basically whatever Apple deems it to be. Why do you think Amazon, Netflix, et al can get away with some "violations" while small developers cannot?
- kalleboo 6y agoEpic added the violating payment system to the app in an update internal to the app (not through app store review). Doing an end-run around review is what gets you terminated. Amazon, Netflix etc submitted their payment systems to app review and got those updates rejected, which Apple is fine with.
- jmull 6y agoOK, but does that have something to do with my comment or the comment I replied to?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]