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Could any downvoters please provide information about any actual experiment which proves existence of space-time being of different kind than existence of a num

Could any downvoters please provide information about any actual experiment which proves existence of space-time being of different kind than existence of a number. Also it would be nice to see any non-interpreted physical processes which involves space-time. Thank you.

nuclearnice1 6y ago
> any non-interpreted physical processes which involves space-time. Two examples in this thread? Depending on the meaning of “non-interpreted” > satellites cause time dilation that’s accounted for in GPS satellite clocks and the receiver clocks And > its speed approaches 8% of the speed of light. That's so fast that time dilation comes into play
- johndoe42377 6y ago
  > meaning of “non-interpreted” Literally. Not being interpreted to support or confirm a current theory. The abstract system of two clocks and an observer is just nonsense, since the first time it was introduced by Einstein. Abstractions put together to form another abstraction with supposed properties. Any two clocks, bring man-made devices to support an abstraction of the mind, are completely unrelated instead of measuring the same phenomena. Time dilation is just an error of measurement and of confirmation bias. I am still looking for an actual experiment and at least one real process.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    These are clocks with an extremely consistent speed, varying less than one part per trillion. That speed varies by altitude in a very consistent way, and all the GPS satellites are showing the same clock skew of half a part per billion. How is that measurement error or confirmation bias? You could buy two atomic clocks yourself and watch how they differ based on altitude. They're definitely not "completely unrelated".
    - johndoe42377 6y ago
      > clocks yourself and watch how they differ based on altitude. Again, this is a man-made device being affected by gravity, not time.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        It also varies based on velocity. You can easily calculate the effect of gravity alone on a GPS satellite and it doesn't give you the right number. But what's the difference between every physical process slowing down, versus time dilation? Unless you're arguing that somehow only clocks slow down, and not other things?
      - msla 6y ago
        > Again, this is a man-made device being affected by gravity, not time. How about muons? Are muons manmade? If we observe that muons live longer before decaying if they take one path instead of another, does it make sense to say that time is being dilated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_dilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_d... > Time dilation as predicted by special relativity is often verified by means of particle lifetime experiments. According to special relativity, the rate of a clock C traveling between two synchronized laboratory clocks A and B, as seen by a laboratory observer, is slowed relative to the laboratory clock rates. Since any periodic process can be considered a clock, the lifetimes of unstable particles such as muons must also be affected, so that moving muons should have a longer lifetime than resting ones. A variety of experiments confirming this effect have been performed both in the atmosphere and in particle accelerators.
        johndoe42377 6y ago
        Though experiments are flawed in a way that a untyped logical statements may be - they mix and match abstract concepts with "concrete" ones so to speak. It is just a type error as multiplying birds by trees. Everything which follow the famous two lighting and a train thought experiment is simply logially flawed. Full of type errors. Time as we know it, which presumably could accelerate and what not does not objectively exist, exactly and precisely the way numbers does not exit outside one's mind. Relations are, numbers not. Processes are, time isn't. This is how I hacked Einstein. Why not?
  - ivalm 6y ago
    If you don’t like clocks then the nicest earth experiment are free electron lasers. They basically rely on length contraction to create coherent light waves (you accelerate electrons until magnetic undulators are spaced at target wavelength due length contraction). You can dial whatever electron speed you want and get corresponding wavelength (although no greater than the at-rest spacing for obvious reasons) and it all perfectly matches relativistic prediction and works well/incredibly reproducible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser
    - johndoe42377 6y ago
      Where is time in this setting? Synchronization of wave length does not involve time. The device is made according the abstract, derived notion of time, same as it used the notion of a number. Nature does not posses any numbers, however. Mind of an intelligent observer does. It is useless to argue on HN. I have literally 5 or 6 accounts banned for attacking a textbook ideas. It is easy to trace them all using HN backend. Most of current HN crowd assume that I am some flat earth anti 5G lunatic, while I have background in philosophy, and down to earth physics way above that of downvoters.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        > It is useless to argue on HN. I have literally 5 or 6 accounts banned for attacking a textbook ideas. Then don’t. > I have background in philosophy, I have an A-Level in philosophy, but it’s a terrible grade and I don’t get to make up for that in philosophical discussions by waving around my Software Engineering degree. > and down to earth physics way above that of downvoters. That choice of phrase alone will make you look like a nut. Would you care to rephrase that, with specifics? Do you work professionally with aerodynamic simulations, for example? Or perhaps you want tell us about the video game engine whose physics model you coded?
rswail 6y ago
How about the gravitational lensing observed in 1919?
- johndoe42377 6y ago
  What does it have to do with time? Observable distortion of trajectories of photons by a massive body does not involve any time.
  - cinquemb 6y ago
    So mass (or a relatively consistent distribution of energy) in motion that follows through space as a function of time, does not involve any time?
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Classical gravity works fine without any concept of "space-time" or "time dilation". He's not arguing that time doesn't exist.
      - cinquemb 6y ago
        Well if one tried to put a munition on target in real time (on the order of few seconds) with classical gravity calculations from 7.6km high (and while moving at a higher rate speed compared to said target), one might be surprised where it lands and less surprised when accounting for things like "time dilation".
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        How many meters off are you imagining here? What kind of munition is accurate enough for that to matter?
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        Is that correct? With Higher or lower abstraction instead?
lopmotr 6y ago
The LIGO experiment can measure the change in length of one arm compared to the other due to anisotropy in spacetime. I don't know how you could explain it without spacetime, so that sounds like non-interpreted.

nuclearnice1 6y ago

> any non-interpreted physical processes which involves space-time. Two examples in this thread? Depending on the meaning of “non-interpreted” > satellites cause time dilation that’s accounted for in GPS satellite clocks and the receiver clocks And > its speed approaches 8% of the speed of light. That's so fast that time dilation comes into play

johndoe42377 6y ago
> meaning of “non-interpreted” Literally. Not being interpreted to support or confirm a current theory. The abstract system of two clocks and an observer is just nonsense, since the first time it was introduced by Einstein. Abstractions put together to form another abstraction with supposed properties. Any two clocks, bring man-made devices to support an abstraction of the mind, are completely unrelated instead of measuring the same phenomena. Time dilation is just an error of measurement and of confirmation bias. I am still looking for an actual experiment and at least one real process.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  These are clocks with an extremely consistent speed, varying less than one part per trillion. That speed varies by altitude in a very consistent way, and all the GPS satellites are showing the same clock skew of half a part per billion. How is that measurement error or confirmation bias? You could buy two atomic clocks yourself and watch how they differ based on altitude. They're definitely not "completely unrelated".
  - johndoe42377 6y ago
    > clocks yourself and watch how they differ based on altitude. Again, this is a man-made device being affected by gravity, not time.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      It also varies based on velocity. You can easily calculate the effect of gravity alone on a GPS satellite and it doesn't give you the right number. But what's the difference between every physical process slowing down, versus time dilation? Unless you're arguing that somehow only clocks slow down, and not other things?
    - msla 6y ago
      > Again, this is a man-made device being affected by gravity, not time. How about muons? Are muons manmade? If we observe that muons live longer before decaying if they take one path instead of another, does it make sense to say that time is being dilated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_dilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_d... > Time dilation as predicted by special relativity is often verified by means of particle lifetime experiments. According to special relativity, the rate of a clock C traveling between two synchronized laboratory clocks A and B, as seen by a laboratory observer, is slowed relative to the laboratory clock rates. Since any periodic process can be considered a clock, the lifetimes of unstable particles such as muons must also be affected, so that moving muons should have a longer lifetime than resting ones. A variety of experiments confirming this effect have been performed both in the atmosphere and in particle accelerators.
      - johndoe42377 6y ago
        Though experiments are flawed in a way that a untyped logical statements may be - they mix and match abstract concepts with "concrete" ones so to speak. It is just a type error as multiplying birds by trees. Everything which follow the famous two lighting and a train thought experiment is simply logially flawed. Full of type errors. Time as we know it, which presumably could accelerate and what not does not objectively exist, exactly and precisely the way numbers does not exit outside one's mind. Relations are, numbers not. Processes are, time isn't. This is how I hacked Einstein. Why not?
- ivalm 6y ago
  If you don’t like clocks then the nicest earth experiment are free electron lasers. They basically rely on length contraction to create coherent light waves (you accelerate electrons until magnetic undulators are spaced at target wavelength due length contraction). You can dial whatever electron speed you want and get corresponding wavelength (although no greater than the at-rest spacing for obvious reasons) and it all perfectly matches relativistic prediction and works well/incredibly reproducible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser
  - johndoe42377 6y ago
    Where is time in this setting? Synchronization of wave length does not involve time. The device is made according the abstract, derived notion of time, same as it used the notion of a number. Nature does not posses any numbers, however. Mind of an intelligent observer does. It is useless to argue on HN. I have literally 5 or 6 accounts banned for attacking a textbook ideas. It is easy to trace them all using HN backend. Most of current HN crowd assume that I am some flat earth anti 5G lunatic, while I have background in philosophy, and down to earth physics way above that of downvoters.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      > It is useless to argue on HN. I have literally 5 or 6 accounts banned for attacking a textbook ideas. Then don’t. > I have background in philosophy, I have an A-Level in philosophy, but it’s a terrible grade and I don’t get to make up for that in philosophical discussions by waving around my Software Engineering degree. > and down to earth physics way above that of downvoters. That choice of phrase alone will make you look like a nut. Would you care to rephrase that, with specifics? Do you work professionally with aerodynamic simulations, for example? Or perhaps you want tell us about the video game engine whose physics model you coded?

rswail 6y ago

How about the gravitational lensing observed in 1919?

johndoe42377 6y ago
What does it have to do with time? Observable distortion of trajectories of photons by a massive body does not involve any time.
- cinquemb 6y ago
  So mass (or a relatively consistent distribution of energy) in motion that follows through space as a function of time, does not involve any time?
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    Classical gravity works fine without any concept of "space-time" or "time dilation". He's not arguing that time doesn't exist.
    - cinquemb 6y ago
      Well if one tried to put a munition on target in real time (on the order of few seconds) with classical gravity calculations from 7.6km high (and while moving at a higher rate speed compared to said target), one might be surprised where it lands and less surprised when accounting for things like "time dilation".
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        How many meters off are you imagining here? What kind of munition is accurate enough for that to matter?
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      Is that correct? With Higher or lower abstraction instead?

lopmotr 6y ago

The LIGO experiment can measure the change in length of one arm compared to the other due to anisotropy in spacetime. I don't know how you could explain it without spacetime, so that sounds like non-interpreted.