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The trouble seems that there aren't many people that get software AND electronics AND mechanics AND on top of that marketing, right. It is rare enough to find

The trouble seems that there aren't many people that get software AND electronics AND mechanics AND on top of that marketing, right. It is rare enough to find people with good electronics and software skills.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Very true. Having worked in this space, the failures usually come from lopsided teams. Too many startups try to treat these products as technology products with a side of building materials, assuming that the technology is the hardest part. In reality, the technology part is easy. The most difficult part is manufacturing and shipping reliable mechanisms at low cost. It can be done, but the mechanisms and mechanical parts need to be treated as the primary product, not an afterthought.
- Retric 6y ago
  Just as important is people are generally quite capable, so stuff people find annoying tends to be genuinely difficult. A mass market automated pill dispenser you can just dump your prescriptions in seems like an obviously viable product. But, building something that’s easy enough to use, reliable enough to be safe, and cheap enough to be affordable is a pipe dream.
  - tomatotomato37 6y ago
    You know I'll be actually surprised if that isn't a product, because that seems "As seen on TV" level amount of effort. Have some hopper with 7 compartments, put a disk with a hole underneath it, and hook it to some 3 cent digital clock module such that spins it around 50 degrees or so everytime it rolls over. Build the whole thing out of plastic, throw it at some factory in China, and before you know it you'll be selling in every walmart in middle America.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Plenty of devices have little bins you fill, some then automatically open those bins on the correct days. However, pills are of wildly different shapes and sizes, which invalidates most of the seemingly obvious sorting solutions. Prescriptions can also call for multiple pills in the same day.
      - tfigment 6y ago
        Very much this. Last time my dad visited he had 4 pill boxes: 7am,10am,2pm,6pm. We had to color code so he knew which ones at which hour. They had to be portable, at least 10 and 2 did. He had slight dementia so he would get confused about colors and sometimes the day. Even worse was trying to decipher the instructions for each medicine to refill the boxes especially after some would change doses after initial couple of weeks. Really hard to automate that correctly even if you had a sorting machine.
        mjevans 6y ago
        It's really sad, but the automation for this is a pharmacy that creates custom plastic sealed single-dosing packets. Some people, most older people, are on THAT many meds and just need to take the next one off the roll.
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        I've seen this for a nursing home in Norway. I'm not sure if folks get this at home or not. I'd guess that some that get a home nurse at least once a day gets them. And honestly, they would usually seem to be a good solution. I think the main weakness is that for a few folks, medicine changes would be difficult because they often are mid-week or mid-month and for some, they would really need their medicines re-packaged. I'm not sure this is as big of a problem in nursing homes and whatnot because the nurse is dispensing the meds, while some folks at home have bad memories or the beginnings of undiagnosed dementia and just won't remember.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Turning on a set of lights is not actually very high on the list of annoyances for most people. Putting dishes in the dishwasher and then putting them away, ditto for clothes, wiping down the kitchen counters and cleaning the floor much more so. Dealing with various yard work a bigger PITA still. Guess which one consumer IoT can actually somewhat address.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Also see: every "smart lock" startup around.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    I have a great smart lock. The secret is, it's dumb. It has a keypad and a keyhole and a 9V battery that lasts about five years. About three months before the battery wears out, it starts beeping and blinking every time you open it, so you know it's time to replace the battery. You have to look in the manual to add or remove a code, but it remembers at least a dozen codes. It doesn't talk to a smartphone. It doesn't have a network connection. It doesn't store a log of openings, and it doesn't violate your privacy. What it does is solve the two biggest problems with door locks: not having your key, and getting a key to a friend so that they can get into your house.
    - bigiain 6y ago
      That sounds like it’s solved half the problem, at least it’s not another outdated Linux 2.7 machine with a nodejs app with no rate limiting listening to unencrypted http sessions over WAP “secured” wifi. But I wonder how it’d fare if someone like the lockpicking lawyer reviewed it’s mechanical lock design? Is it actually a good lock?
      - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        Is it actually a good lock?" I'm not convinced it matters as long as it seems, to the layperson, to be a lock of average quality. No one really wants a lock to feel insecure if it is held in the hand, for example. And sure, if tests say you can just hit it and open it, you'll pass. But as long as it doesn't have obvious defaults... It is good. Most locks really just keep out crimes of opportunity. Few folks have locks that will keep out folks that would destroy your front door or break your windows and few are real challenges to lockpicks. And the shouldn't be challenges to lockpicks! Otherwise, how would a locksmith do their work? It doesn't matter, though. Most folks simply aren't lockpicks - and a good number of folks that can* pick locks well do not have desires to break into homes.
    - 6y ago
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  it's kind of interesting that places like University research groups (including MIT in the early days of computing in the 50's/60's) recognized this need and had dedicated machinists to build a lot of the mech that they needed. If you've ever watched a talented smith work a lathe - wow, they are the true wizards!
  - eru 6y ago
    These days you can scratch that itch on youtube.
- ljm 6y ago
  Reminds me of the Juicero, which took a fairly basic concept (validating a QR code and squeezing a packet of mushed up fruit pulp so juice would come out) and still comically failed because, even with all their meticulously machined gears and cogs, it did a much inferior job to a human hand and a few conveniently shaped kitchen utensils. Never mind that an internet connected, custom-engineered juice press was a bad idea in the first place. It was still out-manufactured by simple tools like a garlic press, or a little metal thing you twist your fruit on top of. Or a blender.
analog31 6y ago
A big problem is that anybody from those fields who can program well enough to do it exclusively for a living, eventually does so. This could be due to higher pay, and more mobility within the job market. There's also a perception that software is more valuable than hardware, which can affect the workplace culture in a negative way.
dbcurtis 6y ago
After working in robotics for a few years, I came to the realization that people (applies especially to managers) don't recognize when they are bringing the wrong instincts to a problem. If you come up through software, you develop one set of instincts, EE another, and ME yet another set of instincts. When making a decision, step one must be identifying the appropriate set of instincts to bring to the problem. Once upon a time I worked for a manager who could only bring software instincts to any problem. He was dismissive, even, of ME problems. But not every problem can be solved in two-week sprints and pushed over LTE to the fleet. (Actually, if you want a good start-up idea, find a way to push a field update to a 5 kilo aluminum casting over LTE -- I'd invest in that.) But here is the thing -- unless you can synchronize the release of software + electronics + mechanics, you don't have a robot. That means design, validation, component tracking, field updates, maintenance. You always need to take a step back and ask yourself what instincts to bring to a problem, and if you are weak in one/some of those areas, learn who's instincts you can trust and bring them in. I am presumptuous enough to believe this applies to IOT mechatronics as well as robots. (Actually robots need more than SW+EE+ME, but this rant is already long enough.)
- dhosek 6y ago
  This is one of the cool things about the Harvey Mudd College Engineering major. Rather than doing Mechanical Engineering, or Electrical Engineering or Cheese Engineering or whatever, you just do Engineering. Graduates leave with a full toolbox of skills. I kind of wish when I was an undergrad, I hadn't had such an aversion to practical knowledge (I started out majoring in Physics/English, then Math/English then dropped out of college to eventually get a BA in English).
  - ascar 6y ago
    That might be a start, but higher education only scratches the surface of on-the-job skills in engineering. You learn the basic tools, the way of thinking and the skill of acquiring additional knowledge. You get near to zero experience on real engineering problems as encountered in business. So in the good case this degree might broaden your horizon and teaches you that you don't know enough and in the bad case it might make you overconfident in even more areas while having even less knowledge than from a more focused degree.
OJFord 6y ago
> It is rare enough to find people with good electronics and software skills. That should be my niche (if it's small enough to be called one), but I've worked firmly in software since graduating a few years ago, and I'm increasingly worried that I'm unhirable for anything else, even if I brushed up with some hobby electronics at home, despite it being electronics that got me into CS. Is there any truth to that? Would I have to start over in a grad role for anyone to hire me for hardware? (I'm not actually looking, I just don't like the thought that the road's closed, my next job has to be software.)

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

Very true. Having worked in this space, the failures usually come from lopsided teams. Too many startups try to treat these products as technology products with a side of building materials, assuming that the technology is the hardest part. In reality, the technology part is easy. The most difficult part is manufacturing and shipping reliable mechanisms at low cost. It can be done, but the mechanisms and mechanical parts need to be treated as the primary product, not an afterthought.

Retric 6y ago
Just as important is people are generally quite capable, so stuff people find annoying tends to be genuinely difficult. A mass market automated pill dispenser you can just dump your prescriptions in seems like an obviously viable product. But, building something that’s easy enough to use, reliable enough to be safe, and cheap enough to be affordable is a pipe dream.
- tomatotomato37 6y ago
  You know I'll be actually surprised if that isn't a product, because that seems "As seen on TV" level amount of effort. Have some hopper with 7 compartments, put a disk with a hole underneath it, and hook it to some 3 cent digital clock module such that spins it around 50 degrees or so everytime it rolls over. Build the whole thing out of plastic, throw it at some factory in China, and before you know it you'll be selling in every walmart in middle America.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Plenty of devices have little bins you fill, some then automatically open those bins on the correct days. However, pills are of wildly different shapes and sizes, which invalidates most of the seemingly obvious sorting solutions. Prescriptions can also call for multiple pills in the same day.
    - tfigment 6y ago
      Very much this. Last time my dad visited he had 4 pill boxes: 7am,10am,2pm,6pm. We had to color code so he knew which ones at which hour. They had to be portable, at least 10 and 2 did. He had slight dementia so he would get confused about colors and sometimes the day. Even worse was trying to decipher the instructions for each medicine to refill the boxes especially after some would change doses after initial couple of weeks. Really hard to automate that correctly even if you had a sorting machine.
      - mjevans 6y ago
        It's really sad, but the automation for this is a pharmacy that creates custom plastic sealed single-dosing packets. Some people, most older people, are on THAT many meds and just need to take the next one off the roll.
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        I've seen this for a nursing home in Norway. I'm not sure if folks get this at home or not. I'd guess that some that get a home nurse at least once a day gets them. And honestly, they would usually seem to be a good solution. I think the main weakness is that for a few folks, medicine changes would be difficult because they often are mid-week or mid-month and for some, they would really need their medicines re-packaged. I'm not sure this is as big of a problem in nursing homes and whatnot because the nurse is dispensing the meds, while some folks at home have bad memories or the beginnings of undiagnosed dementia and just won't remember.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- ghaff 6y ago
  Turning on a set of lights is not actually very high on the list of annoyances for most people. Putting dishes in the dishwasher and then putting them away, ditto for clothes, wiping down the kitchen counters and cleaning the floor much more so. Dealing with various yard work a bigger PITA still. Guess which one consumer IoT can actually somewhat address.
raverbashing 6y ago
Also see: every "smart lock" startup around.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  I have a great smart lock. The secret is, it's dumb. It has a keypad and a keyhole and a 9V battery that lasts about five years. About three months before the battery wears out, it starts beeping and blinking every time you open it, so you know it's time to replace the battery. You have to look in the manual to add or remove a code, but it remembers at least a dozen codes. It doesn't talk to a smartphone. It doesn't have a network connection. It doesn't store a log of openings, and it doesn't violate your privacy. What it does is solve the two biggest problems with door locks: not having your key, and getting a key to a friend so that they can get into your house.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    That sounds like it’s solved half the problem, at least it’s not another outdated Linux 2.7 machine with a nodejs app with no rate limiting listening to unencrypted http sessions over WAP “secured” wifi. But I wonder how it’d fare if someone like the lockpicking lawyer reviewed it’s mechanical lock design? Is it actually a good lock?
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      Is it actually a good lock?" I'm not convinced it matters as long as it seems, to the layperson, to be a lock of average quality. No one really wants a lock to feel insecure if it is held in the hand, for example. And sure, if tests say you can just hit it and open it, you'll pass. But as long as it doesn't have obvious defaults... It is good. Most locks really just keep out crimes of opportunity. Few folks have locks that will keep out folks that would destroy your front door or break your windows and few are real challenges to lockpicks. And the shouldn't be challenges to lockpicks! Otherwise, how would a locksmith do their work? It doesn't matter, though. Most folks simply aren't lockpicks - and a good number of folks that can* pick locks well do not have desires to break into homes.
  - 6y ago
nogabebop23 6y ago
it's kind of interesting that places like University research groups (including MIT in the early days of computing in the 50's/60's) recognized this need and had dedicated machinists to build a lot of the mech that they needed. If you've ever watched a talented smith work a lathe - wow, they are the true wizards!
- eru 6y ago
  These days you can scratch that itch on youtube.
ljm 6y ago
Reminds me of the Juicero, which took a fairly basic concept (validating a QR code and squeezing a packet of mushed up fruit pulp so juice would come out) and still comically failed because, even with all their meticulously machined gears and cogs, it did a much inferior job to a human hand and a few conveniently shaped kitchen utensils. Never mind that an internet connected, custom-engineered juice press was a bad idea in the first place. It was still out-manufactured by simple tools like a garlic press, or a little metal thing you twist your fruit on top of. Or a blender.

analog31 6y ago

A big problem is that anybody from those fields who can program well enough to do it exclusively for a living, eventually does so. This could be due to higher pay, and more mobility within the job market. There's also a perception that software is more valuable than hardware, which can affect the workplace culture in a negative way.

dbcurtis 6y ago

After working in robotics for a few years, I came to the realization that people (applies especially to managers) don't recognize when they are bringing the wrong instincts to a problem. If you come up through software, you develop one set of instincts, EE another, and ME yet another set of instincts. When making a decision, step one must be identifying the appropriate set of instincts to bring to the problem. Once upon a time I worked for a manager who could only bring software instincts to any problem. He was dismissive, even, of ME problems. But not every problem can be solved in two-week sprints and pushed over LTE to the fleet. (Actually, if you want a good start-up idea, find a way to push a field update to a 5 kilo aluminum casting over LTE -- I'd invest in that.) But here is the thing -- unless you can synchronize the release of software + electronics + mechanics, you don't have a robot. That means design, validation, component tracking, field updates, maintenance. You always need to take a step back and ask yourself what instincts to bring to a problem, and if you are weak in one/some of those areas, learn who's instincts you can trust and bring them in. I am presumptuous enough to believe this applies to IOT mechatronics as well as robots. (Actually robots need more than SW+EE+ME, but this rant is already long enough.)

dhosek 6y ago
This is one of the cool things about the Harvey Mudd College Engineering major. Rather than doing Mechanical Engineering, or Electrical Engineering or Cheese Engineering or whatever, you just do Engineering. Graduates leave with a full toolbox of skills. I kind of wish when I was an undergrad, I hadn't had such an aversion to practical knowledge (I started out majoring in Physics/English, then Math/English then dropped out of college to eventually get a BA in English).
- ascar 6y ago
  That might be a start, but higher education only scratches the surface of on-the-job skills in engineering. You learn the basic tools, the way of thinking and the skill of acquiring additional knowledge. You get near to zero experience on real engineering problems as encountered in business. So in the good case this degree might broaden your horizon and teaches you that you don't know enough and in the bad case it might make you overconfident in even more areas while having even less knowledge than from a more focused degree.

OJFord 6y ago

> It is rare enough to find people with good electronics and software skills. That should be my niche (if it's small enough to be called one), but I've worked firmly in software since graduating a few years ago, and I'm increasingly worried that I'm unhirable for anything else, even if I brushed up with some hobby electronics at home, despite it being electronics that got me into CS. Is there any truth to that? Would I have to start over in a grad role for anyone to hire me for hardware? (I'm not actually looking, I just don't like the thought that the road's closed, my next job has to be software.)