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Not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep: new research

195 points by laurex 6y ago

emerged 6y ago
I find it almost impossible to sleep more than 5 hours in one night, but I feel great all day and never feel tired. Exercise for a dozen hours per week and have good discipline with putting away the phone at night, etc. We are always told how bad this is, but there is no solution offered which actually works and I've never experienced a downside. It would be nice to prove once and for all that it isn't harmful for us all.
- colmvp 6y ago
  My friend is the exact same as you. She’s only slept 5 hours a day for her entire life. Any more and she actually feels groggy. She pointed out one reason why that may be the case: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover-how-gene-mutation-reduces-need-sleep https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover...
  - didibus 6y ago
    That's the same researcher being talked about in this article . They've identified more gene since then. That's the story here.
- koolba 6y ago
  I’m going to guess that you’re under 30.
  - emerged 6y ago
    Nearly 40
  - axaxs 6y ago
    Similarly, I feel cheated. We were always taught growing up that kids need more sleep than adults and older people. As a teen into my mid 20s, I never slept more than 4 or 5 hours a night and felt great. Now, if I sleep less than 7 hours, I have to drag myself out of bed and feel sluggish for the first half the day.
  - donretag 6y ago
    Not the OP, but I am over 40 and I only sleep 5-6 hours a night. I am never tired during the day, never drink caffeine. I do a TON of cardio, especially massively long bike rides on the weekend.
    - langitbiru 6y ago
      You're a lucky b. :) I'm really jealous of you. I need 7.5 to 8 hours of sleep. I would feel like a zombie if I got less than that. If I could only sleep 5-6 hours of sleep, I would do more things in my life: studying foreign languages, working on side projects, reading more books, etc.
      - balfirevic 6y ago
        It's all relative. I would encourage you to feel moderately lucky yourselves, some of us need 9-10 hours :-/
    - emerged 6y ago
      It's interesting the parallels between us. I'm about 40 and sleep 5-6 hours a night. Never tired during the day, never drink caffeine (ironically, I sometimes drink it in the morning in hopes I'll crash and fall asleep). I do an enormous amount of cardio, on bikes! It's 1:17am for me. I will be awake for another hour most likely. I'll get up before 8am and ride for a few hours. Never a yawn. It's really fascinating and I have no idea how to explain it.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Similarly, I have found that every hour of exercise removes the need to sleep about an hour, to a certain point. Unlike you, though, several hours a week of exercise brings my nightly need to sleep down to 8 from 9-10!
  - hiyer 6y ago
    I think it may depend on how strenuous the exercise is rather than the duration, but I have a similar observation. I normally sleep 6-6.5 hours at night. When I did p90x (45-60 minute sessions) a few years back, I would usually be wide awake after 5 hours. I suspect this is because I sleep really deeply when tired - I remember most of those nights sleeping dreamlessly.
    - 1123581321 6y ago
      That is a good point. As someone who naturally sleeps longer then 8 hours, my exercise is not as intense as it probably should be.
- awalton 6y ago
  I'm fairly close to this. I used to require almost exactly 4 hours of sleep a night, and getting more or less than that made me feel absolutely abysmal, but over the years it's jumped up to 5.5 hrs/night with it being slightly more forgiving about the range (from 4-6 hours I feel decently okay, best at 5.5 and worse as I fall away from that, but outside of that band I feel completely horrid). I get more rest than this, but the extra hours of rest are usually laying down listening to music or the occasional audio book. I think the biggest agent of change is my autoimmune disease which has worsened over the years and now requires of me more rest and sleep maintenance. Got a cruel reminder of all of this sleep-related business last night with the bay area thunderstorm waking me after only 3 hours of sleep and the storm and heat keeping me awake until my body screamed for a rare noon siesta.
- didibus 6y ago
  I'm someone who needs a lot of sleep, like 9h minimum, so that I feel good and energized during awake time. I'd say, if you feel well rested, energized and just overall feel good when you wake up, you don't have any issue.
pedalpete 6y ago
I'm so happy to see this type of research being more broadly accepted mainstream. We don't have one diet for everybody, one exercise type for everybody, why do we think sleep would be any different. We're working on improving sleep performance, if you're interested in this sort of thing, sign-up to get on our waitlist https://withbliss.com https://withbliss.com or reach out.
projektfu 6y ago
"I read an article saying not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep!" "You are gaining weight, not finishing your work, and you had a car accident last week." "I feel fine on 5 hours of sleep, shut up!"
- peteforde 6y ago
  It's obnoxious to approach such a complicated domain with the attitude that you are right and people who are thriving are wrong.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    The problem is that people who are sleep-deprived tend to believe they are "thriving" (or at least "feeling fine") when they are very much not.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      If they're happy and productive and generally satisfied with their life, I'd call that thriving. If they're struggling, occasionally (or more) depressed, unproductive or unmotivated, lack meaningful social interactions... Sleep could be an issue. Or it could be the depression that is in turn causing the sleep and other issues. These things are complex.
      - watwut 6y ago
        Here is key: > "You are gaining weight, not finishing your work, and you had a car accident last week." And I have seen this in play. Otherwise smart person coding stupid things, saying stupid things, getting overly emotional and angry over stupid things all the while proudly claiming the 6 hours a night are enough for him. And blaming everyone and everything for all the problems, just not himself. And everyone else is unhappy due to consequences. And him unhappy due to constant conflicts he is in that he does not really understands. But like, those were totally not his fault, they were everyone elses fault.
    - 6y ago
michaericalribo 6y ago
It seems the problem is not that _everyone_ needs a full 8, but that many people _assume_ they don’t need that much, even though they do. I don’t sleep 8 every night: sometimes it’s longer, usually it’s more like 6, but either way I don’t use an alarm to wake up. The key for me was to prioritize my sleep health by minimizing screen time before bed, going to bed consistently at the same time, and always leaving enough time to get 8 full hours if my body ends up wanting it. I don’t _always_ need 8 hours, but it makes a huge difference when I do. And empirically, my well being—physical and mental—improves substantially if I am going out of my way to tend my sleep health.
- vecter 6y ago
  Anyone who isn't using flux[0] after 8pm is seriously hurting themselves. Once you use it, you can't go back. [0] https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/
  - FooHentai 6y ago
    Or the blue light-removing features that are built into most modern OS - Windows 10 has it ('Night Light'), Android ('Night Mode') and IoS ('Night Shift') have it. Flux was great but for the most part modern OS' have caught up and it's no longer needed.
    - bangonkeyboard 6y ago
      'In 2009 we first approached Apple to get f.lux on iPhones. Years of promises of API access. The last conversation we had with them was "that's too weird for most of our users. Like the Klingon keyboard." Then, they announced their clone onstage, Macworld 2016.' — https://twitter.com/JustGetFlux/status/1288979404677292032 https://twitter.com/JustGetFlux/status/1288979404677292032
      - guywithabike 6y ago
        It's very likely that the team that said "yes" is not the same team that said "no". Apple is a big company. There's more than one person there.
michaericalribo 6y ago
An interesting aside: circadian rhythms often group in multiples of 1.5 hours, and I can say from experience that it is better for me to get 7.5 than 8 hours Hell, disrupting REM mid-cycle is worse (in my experience) than fewer cycles that are all while: better to get 6 hours than 8.
- sasaf5 6y ago
  True, I started waking up much better with one of those apps that wakes you up when it senses movement. It has reduced a lot the urge to hit snooze.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  That kind of fits my experience. I used to wake up around 7:15. Now with COVID work from home and no commute or need to go through a morning routine, it's naturally turned into about 8:45. Pop up, grab some food, do a few hours of work, then take a break to shower, change, etc. I'll have a tough time when I have to return to the office.
  - gen220 6y ago
    This has been my schedule since COVID, too, almost to the minute! At first I felt really weird about working before showering, like it was out of order so it felt wrong. Now, I can’t imagine doing it any other way. Weird! I’m usually done with breakfast and tea around 8:45, and then I work through until noon. Go for a run if the weather’s good, shower, quick bite for lunch, back to work till 6ish. I used to get in to the office around 11 before, regardless of what time I woke up. I can’t help but feel the current (weird) schedule is at least 20% more productive for me. Yea, the office readjustment will suck.
- PodCurator 6y ago
  I used to do this too. Then I realized this only works if you actually sleep 7.5 hours and it takes average human 14 minutes to fall asleep. I.e. I’d set an alarm 7:30 from when I go to bed but then still felt tired - doing 8 hours felt better with 7hrs45ish the sweet spot. Hence I can see why people just recommend 8 because normal people don’t try to optimize to the minute and better to slightly over estimate rather than definitely underestimate
Accacin 6y ago
I decided that I really am a morning person and decided to go bed around ~2030 (sometimes at the weekend I’ll go bed later if I’m out with family or something) and I wake up when my body is ready. Usually that’s around 0500. Then I walk the dog for 30-40mins, eat breakfast and then do some studying for a few hours before I start work at 0800. I do feel much better, and it’s nice waking up when I’m ready without an alarm.
IgorPartola 6y ago
Having children took me from being able to sleep any time anywhere to having horrible sleep. One of my kids had an incredibly quiet voice in her first three months AND had a habit of spitting up copious amounts when we would put her in her crib. She would start crying and making choking noises but very quietly so I learned to be an incredibly light sleeper. She also would not sleep for the first month unless she was held (she got over it, it wasn’t a big thing, it wasn’t a medical problem, we checked), but it meant that I would stay up holding her and watching TV until 3am and then hand her off to someone else for the rest of the night, getting 4-5 hours of sleep. We sometimes had to keep lights on all night, sometimes TV on to keep adults caring for the kids from falling asleep themselves. It was brutal. A part of it was the breast is best craze that has taken over parenting. I don’t disagree with it, but also some people just don’t produce enough milk to fully sustain a child and you need to supplement. When our kids were older my partner found out that her doctor actually noted that her breast tissue was likely to not produce sufficient quantities of milk on her medical chart, but failed to ever tell her. Hence feeding the kids 8-12 times a night, times two kids. As a result years later I now can’t sleep for more than 5 hours a night without waking up and not being able to go back to sleep for an hour or two. I am slowly figuring out ways to combat this but I have yet to find a solution that lets me sleep a full 7-9 hours my body seems to actually need that doesn’t give me a headache or make my drowsy for the rest of the following day. Sometimes being human is a limitation.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  > I now can’t sleep for more than 5 hours a night without waking up and not being able to go back to sleep for an hour or two. Have you ruled out alcohol? I’ve heard drinking at night can cause that.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    I don’t drink most days, and if I do I don’t get drunk except maybe once a year.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    Other sugars too, the blood-sugar drop signals wake up and eat. iIRC
tus88 6y ago
Quality not quantity. Stalin was wrong.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  I wouldn't say he was wrong, it's just that the quality/quantity balance doesn't balance the same way in every circumstance. And Stalin wasn't making a universal proclamation. Of course he was a brutal dictator who caused the deaths of millions, so it's still probably a good idea to take his "wisdom" with a critical eye.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > he was a brutal dictator who caused the deaths of millions This is a common but incomplete misunderstanding. Stalin was asked to be the leader of a backward, pre-industrial empire. By plundering the Kulak farmers, he was able to finance industrialization and a military, just in time to repel Germany. (Mao did the same thing later.) Fun fact 1: the American builders of Ford's River Rouge factory complex afterwards worked for Stalin to build his factories. Fun fact 2: Stalin was both ally and enemy of all of the Allied and Axis countries at various times during WW2. You could write an entire textbook on just his changing allegiances. Had Stalin not defeated Germany, the Russian people would have been enslaved and starved to death - the stakes were very high in WW2. Typically the Germans would cut calories in occupied countries by half every few months - you can do the math on how long people survived. Of course, Japan told their Singapore prisoners, "Grow your own food."
peteforde 6y ago
After fighting my body my entire life to fit with the mainstream, I switched to a 20-hours up, 7 hours down sleep schedule six months ago. I've never felt better. Instead of feeling like a zombie until 5-6 hours into my day and working late into the night, I now can find myself working minutes after waking up - something I never thought possible. I'm roughly twice as productive as before. It is admittedly difficult to plan ahead; I don't have dependents and I am a solo developer, working on my own schedule. One silver lining of COVID is that people are finally getting a glimpse of what post-9-to-5 cubicle work styles can offer. Why shouldn't we work when and how we are most productive?
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Can you explain it more?
  - peteforde 6y ago
    Sure: what would you like to know? Off the top of my head: - easier to find the will to exercise - less cravings for junk food - depression symptoms occur 80% less - back pain frequently forgets to manifest - I feel more optimistic It's not all roses, though. I am not traditionally employable because I work unpredictable hours. It can be hard to schedule doctor's appointments, for example. The hardest thing is syncing with my SO. She's actually inclined to keep similar hours, but has a 9-5 job. Still, this hasn't been a huge issue. I don't think it could work if you had young children.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      More so what time do you go to bed and wake up, etc?
      - peteforde 6y ago
        I go to sleep 20 hours after I wake up, and I wake up 7 hours later.
lettergram 6y ago
I need maybe 4-5 hours to function and 6 to function well. Anything more than that I feel stressed all day like I missed something. I can typically jump out of bed (literally) at around 6 hours excited for the day and do a full 12 hours of work. That being said, I have slept 8 hours or so when I am sick or feeling a tad depressed. My wife in contrast needs 8-10 hours of sleep to feel that way. But with kids she gets 7-8 hours so she’s always a bit groggy. Ideally We’d sleep without alarms, but our children let us know when it’s time to get up (and there’s some variance there). I think your body adjusts sleep based on its needs and we should probably listen to it.
burlesona 6y ago
> In 2019, Fu and Ptacek discovered two more genes connected to natural short sleep, and they’ll soon submit a paper describing a fourth, providing even more evidence that functioning well on less sleep is a genetic trait. Several years ago I was listening to a Freakonomics Radio series where they interviewed a bunch of big company CEOs, and one thing that I noticed was they all described their normal routine as involving very little sleep. It struck me then that being a high power leader is almost certainly genetic in the same way that genes for height are essentially required to be a serious / professional basketball player. I struggle with sleep, always have, and rarely feel good in the morning without about 8 hours or more in bed. And I’m acutely aware of many of my friends and peers who need much less than this and feel fine. Occasionally I’ll find myself at a conference or something and the group I’m with will stay out late and then get up early and go about their day as normal. I used to try and keep up, but I would be so hung over the next morning (regardless of whether I had anything to drink) as to be non-functional. It’s a sad thing to me to think that I don’t have the genetics to keep up with the people who need a lot less sleep than I do. However, I’m gradually making peace with it, as I focus on finding things I can do with my life that are compatible with my need for more time in bed.
- otherme123 6y ago
  Well, Marissa Mayer is quite preachy about working long hours and sleeping poorly. She always had important roles in big companies, but he managed Yahoo quite poorly. So she fits the narrative ("no sleep -> CEO"), but that doesn't mean that you will be CEOing correctly. I'm sure there are other good CEOs that sleep 8 or more hours, but they don't talk about it. I hide the fact that I like to sleep at least 8 hours (but 9 would be my optimal), because sleeping 6 hours or less is a medal in my workplace. I only know of Basecamp CEOs that take the opposite stance: they admit to sleep at least 8 hours, take long vacations, having cool hobbies and healthy families, working 40ish hours per week... while keeping their bussiness running happily on profits for 17 years in a row. And boy did they receive criticism for saying it out loud. Nonsense like "if you worked harder and slept less, your bussiness would be billionaire instead of millionaire".
  - iamben 6y ago
beenBoutIT 6y ago
President Trump is famous for boasting about how he only sleeps for 4 hours. He claims that reducing his sleeping time down to 4 hours took a tremendous amount of willpower and effort.
shakascchen 6y ago
There would be other issues like how much we can change our sleeping hours and circadian. The article mentioned it's crazy to say everybody has to be the same height, but nutrition and exercise can influence how tall a children is going to be. Besides our heights, from weight to intellectual performance it's always interaction between nature and nurture. Similarly, we shouldn't consider gene as an excuse against trying to be productive given fewer sleep hours. On the other hand, it could be better if we don't have to force ourselves or anyone to sleep fewer even if someday there would be a scientific way to do so.
atemerev 6y ago
Yes, I need 9 hours of sleep per day, ideally 10. Unfortunately, it is hardly possible to have this kind of schedule when your family are all morning birds.
- hazbot 6y ago
  I feel ya! 9-10 hours optimal over here too. New baby is making that impossible.
- nilram 6y ago
  I'm also a 9-hour-a-day person. My partner is probably at 7, but gets up quietly. I can function ok with 7, but I'm miserable and much less functional with anything less. Up late packing and up early for a flight? Misery. But, though I won't be going again soon, I enjoy a lot of the aspects of flight and most importantly, I don't have to think much during.
pmiller2 6y ago
> [S]hort sleepers may actually have an edge over everyone else. Research is still early, but Fu has found that besides being more efficient at sleep, they tend to be more energetic and optimistic and have a higher tolerance for pain than people who need to spend more time in bed. They also tend to live longer. And, here I am needing my 8±1 hours every night. Even needing half as much sleep alone would be a real edge. Tack on being naturally more optimistic and having a higher pain tolerance than others, and it starts sounding like a real superpower. Oh, and they live longer, too? This is exciting research, but I can't help but feel either envious or inferior because of it. Yes, it's a personal failing. Sue me. :P My real hope is that this research eventually benefits medicine somehow. Maybe they can put it in a bottle for the rest of us (unlikely!). Or, since lack of sleep is linked to so many conditions, including systemic inflammation, maybe we'll get some insight into what the relationship is between sleep and inflammation? Maybe a "sleep gene panel" will become a standard test and guide how we treat certain conditions? Who knows.
- JaumeGreen 6y ago
  It sounds like half the advantages, at least, are benefits of sleeping as much as you need. If I don't sleep enough I'm grumpy and apathetic, so if I only needed to sleep 6 hours (instead of 8+) I'm sure I would be happier. So I believe this might have done causation link.
29athrowaway 6y ago
There are different sleep stages. Some stages are more resting than others.
tarasmatsyk 6y ago
The article seems to be too obvious, maybe I am missing some bits of info here. After I read "why we sleep" all these: "sleep faster", "you need 8 hours", "I wake up at 4am" seems ridiculous to me. It's all depends, try to sleep 8 hours and if 6h works for you - lucky you, if 4am works for you - lucky you, if you need 7h or 10h - good, stick to it and adjust your schedule. Despite all the articles on how bad "why we sleep" is, it helped me a lot, at least with basics, that's all I need due to lack of ambition to get a PhD in why people sleep. I tried everything, slept 10h, 8h, 6h, mix(night/day) and there always was only one thing that worked for me: wake up without alarm in the "late morning". No matter how hard I try, morning is just not for me, I fought with it for too many years and the war is over, my sleep always wins. Evening works best for me, no matter of what people try to convince or adjust me to. TL;DR try what works for you and don't try to adjust with others.
T-1000 6y ago
I highly recommend "Why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. It does a great job describing the science of sleep.
- peritpatrio 6y ago
  Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors — https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
  - T-1000 6y ago
    Thanks for the link, will check it out. I note however that Walker has responded to the criticism (https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/#short-sleep https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...).
    - kelnos 6y ago
      From a quick skim of that response, it reads to me like Walker admits to and agrees with at least some of the criticism. But it also looks like he ignores some of the more damning accusations, like cutting out parts of graphs that don't support his theories, being incorrect that the WHO has declared that we have a "sleep loss epidemic", and questions about where he actually earned his PhD (which he seems to continually misrepresent). So yes, he seems to have responded to the criticism, but IMO not really addressed it to a satisfying degree.
      - T-1000 6y ago
        IMO he has mostly satisfying answers. He agrees with some minor points and he doesn't address important stuff like cutting out parts of graphs, but I don't think the criticism is strong enough to conclude that the book is "riddled with scientific and factual errors".
      - criddell 6y ago
        All of what you said might be true and it could still be the best book on why sleep is important.
johnnujler 6y ago
If there is anything that I realized after reading so many (apparent) researches on dietary habits, sleep cycle, exercise, and whatnot is that you are unique and you do what works for you. Most of these are just average(as in expected value) results that are extrapolated out of a superficial survey, which they call study; and some of these are outright bad. Yes, there are general heuristics like being disciplined with your time and effort which if followed can be beneficial, but most of us will have to go through the suffering to discover that; and fwiw, you'll eventually discover that on your as you age and see that your (unrealized) slothfulness, carelessness and temptation is harming you more than you think they are. I use to work at a seed stage startup, where I had to grind out days together without sleeping and eating, because of which I suffered from severe health issues mostly lifestyle related. I browsed through every blog, every paper, every podcast and youtube videos I could get my hands on --- tried all of them over a period of 2.5 years to a deteriorating health and increased stress. Luckily 2 years ago, I went to a Vipasana silent meditation retreat, where for 10 days you eat on time, sleep on time(9pm), wake up on time(4:30am), and meditate rest of the time. I don't how that retreat itself helped me, but I somehow managed to adhere to that schedule for 2 years now and I feel better than ever. NB: I don't meditate all day, but I meditate 1 hour every day while also maintain my eating habits and sleeping habits.
timonoko 6y ago
If you do what @jack do, namely eat only once a day at 13:00 hours, you'll start sleeping like a baby again. Long uninterrupted sleeps with vivid dreams. When you wake up you have take a moment to sort out which things are real and which only happens in the dream-world, which forms a static continuum of unique persons, themes and storylines. @jack does not mention these crazy dream issues, because it would effect the Twitter valuation and his own valuation too.
nigerian1981 6y ago
Margaret Tatcher famously only slept for 4 hours, but it’s said she used to nap in the car whenever she could. I think cultures where they take a nap during the day, such as the siesta in Spain, may be onto something. More offices need to have sleep pods.
- new_guy 6y ago
  The issue is we're calling it a 'nap' but it's not, it's basically 'biphasic sleep', before the industrial revolution it used to be the standard. Sleep, wake up for a few hours, sleep again. This new-fangled 8 hour block of sleep people seem to think they need to do is incredibly detrimental to health.
  - nigerian1981 6y ago
    Yes I do remember reading a while back that this used to be very common. It started dwindling in the late 17th century and was pretty much obsolete by the early 20th century. This period was often used for prayer, or writing, or sex, or even for visiting the neighbours.
FrojoS 6y ago
A common suggestion, also in this thread, for increased sleep quality is limiting screen time or any stimulating activity before bed time. But what to do then? Talking to housemates might be ok, but what if you have none, or the conversations end up stimulating? Similar for books. The books Im usually interested in (non fiction) tend to be very stimulating. I remember fiction to be quite stimulating, too. I guess the crux of the problem is, how do you stick to doing something that is boring on purpose? And is the improvement in sleep quality really worth it?
- Breza 6y ago
  I used to work overnight and trained myself to get better at sleep. It's more than just limiting screen time. I started sleeping better when I created an entire process that signaled to my body that it was time to sleep.
- cvolzer3 6y ago
  My take is that it's about the "stimulating activity" rather than the actual screen time. When broken down it's intuitive, but the "reduce screen time" adage often gets repeated without that distinction. Specifically about your problem: for me, I move from a state of "active engagement" to "passive consumption". 1 to 2 hours before bed, I stop doing anything engaging that requires my active participation - work, video games, learning. I shift to lounging on the couch and reading fiction or watching a movie/show. The key is in my intentions behind each: in the evening, my goal is to relax. I dont turn on a movie with the intention to learn or to be entertained; I'm just there to experience it. Sorry if that's too abstract; the feeling is hard to communicate. Hopefully it's a useful starting point for further thinking.
  - FrojoS 6y ago
    It's actually very helpful advice. Thank you. A few things that come to my mind now: 1) I did notice though that some form of learning, e.g. vocabulary, can help me fall asleep. I guess it requires focus - which makes me feel tired - but is also dull. 2) Reading in low light conditions makes my eyes tired. It feels harder to keep them open which can work as a trigger for sleeping. It's not bad for eye health by the way [1]. 3) The biggest hurdle often seems discipline. It's just too tempting to continue a fun and engaging activity, like playing video games, way past bedtime. The easiest solution would be to not engage in them at all in the evening, but then you might never find time for it. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/safeguarding-your-sight#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Reading%20in%20dim%20light,page%2C%20not%20over%20your%20shoulder https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/safeguarding-your-....
waltwalther 6y ago
You could replace Seemay Chou with my my name in that first paragraph. For as long as I can remember I have went to bed at midnight(ish) and have been wide awake and productive around 4-430 without the use of any alarm. Consistently. Weekends and holidays. My family does not understand it, and I do not understand how they allow themselves to sleep in everyday. I like it like this. I get to be awake and go about my business without interruption when the people around me are asleep. I get much done between the hours of 4am and 8am. When I travel for work I get to see other cities with almost no traffic on the streets. New York and LA, Atlanta. It has a certain feeling to it. Although in recent years if I happen to be on the streets at 5am I usually notice a fair amount of foot traffic outside of fitness clubs. At first I saw these people as intruders, encroaching on my little, peaceful world. The early morning has a certain feeling that is somehow diminished with the addition of other people...
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > and I do not understand how they allow themselves to sleep in everyday You are very fortunate with your sleeping needs. What exactly is there for you to understand? You speak about them allowing themselves to sleep in, yet you don't disallow yourself to do anything but just wake up naturally without alarm.
The_rationalist 6y ago
For example, with less than ~9h of sleep my well being is significantly affected.
grasonfire 6y ago
tl;dr 8 hours is a common standard, but you probably need a different amount.
mschuster91 6y ago
It's not just the amount of sleep that affects us. For me, the biggest improvement I had thanks to the 'rona lockdowns was I finally can follow a decent sleep schedule - wake me up at 8 or earlier and I'm essentially an unusable wreck for the first 4 or so hours, so when I was able to sleep until 9 because I had no need to rush for eating, showering and to travel the ~45min to work I actually am way more productive. Now, if politicians could get their butts to introducing 32 or shorter hour work weeks (=4 day work week)... that would be yet another boost, for physical and mental health as well as for unemployment numbers.
kyuudou 6y ago
For me, if I don't workout, I just need about 6 hours. If I workout (whether cardio, strength or both but especially with strength), I definitely need 8 hours. Every few weeks I find myself sleeping 10-12 hours with non-stop vivid REM dreams.
WMCRUN 6y ago
> ‘The researchers expected that regardless of the time of day, men in both groups would see improvements in blood-sugar levels. But “when they exercised in the morning, they actually had slightly higher levels of blood sugar [than baseline], which we didn’t expect at all,” ‘ There’s a circadian effect to blood glucose...it’s part of how you wake up. Kind of surprised the authors of a circadian rhythm study didn’t factor this in.

195 points by laurex 6y ago

I find it almost impossible to sleep more than 5 hours in one night, but I feel great all day and never feel tired. Exercise for a dozen hours per week and have good discipline with putting away the phone at night, etc. We are always told how bad this is, but there is no solution offered which actually works and I've never experienced a downside. It would be nice to prove once and for all that it isn't harmful for us all.

colmvp 6y ago
My friend is the exact same as you. She’s only slept 5 hours a day for her entire life. Any more and she actually feels groggy. She pointed out one reason why that may be the case: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover-how-gene-mutation-reduces-need-sleep https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/03/410051/scientists-discover...
- didibus 6y ago
  That's the same researcher being talked about in this article . They've identified more gene since then. That's the story here.
koolba 6y ago
I’m going to guess that you’re under 30.
- emerged 6y ago
  Nearly 40
- axaxs 6y ago
  Similarly, I feel cheated. We were always taught growing up that kids need more sleep than adults and older people. As a teen into my mid 20s, I never slept more than 4 or 5 hours a night and felt great. Now, if I sleep less than 7 hours, I have to drag myself out of bed and feel sluggish for the first half the day.
- donretag 6y ago
  Not the OP, but I am over 40 and I only sleep 5-6 hours a night. I am never tired during the day, never drink caffeine. I do a TON of cardio, especially massively long bike rides on the weekend.
  - langitbiru 6y ago
    You're a lucky b. :) I'm really jealous of you. I need 7.5 to 8 hours of sleep. I would feel like a zombie if I got less than that. If I could only sleep 5-6 hours of sleep, I would do more things in my life: studying foreign languages, working on side projects, reading more books, etc.
    - balfirevic 6y ago
      It's all relative. I would encourage you to feel moderately lucky yourselves, some of us need 9-10 hours :-/
  - emerged 6y ago
    It's interesting the parallels between us. I'm about 40 and sleep 5-6 hours a night. Never tired during the day, never drink caffeine (ironically, I sometimes drink it in the morning in hopes I'll crash and fall asleep). I do an enormous amount of cardio, on bikes! It's 1:17am for me. I will be awake for another hour most likely. I'll get up before 8am and ride for a few hours. Never a yawn. It's really fascinating and I have no idea how to explain it.
1123581321 6y ago
Similarly, I have found that every hour of exercise removes the need to sleep about an hour, to a certain point. Unlike you, though, several hours a week of exercise brings my nightly need to sleep down to 8 from 9-10!
- hiyer 6y ago
  I think it may depend on how strenuous the exercise is rather than the duration, but I have a similar observation. I normally sleep 6-6.5 hours at night. When I did p90x (45-60 minute sessions) a few years back, I would usually be wide awake after 5 hours. I suspect this is because I sleep really deeply when tired - I remember most of those nights sleeping dreamlessly.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    That is a good point. As someone who naturally sleeps longer then 8 hours, my exercise is not as intense as it probably should be.
awalton 6y ago
I'm fairly close to this. I used to require almost exactly 4 hours of sleep a night, and getting more or less than that made me feel absolutely abysmal, but over the years it's jumped up to 5.5 hrs/night with it being slightly more forgiving about the range (from 4-6 hours I feel decently okay, best at 5.5 and worse as I fall away from that, but outside of that band I feel completely horrid). I get more rest than this, but the extra hours of rest are usually laying down listening to music or the occasional audio book. I think the biggest agent of change is my autoimmune disease which has worsened over the years and now requires of me more rest and sleep maintenance. Got a cruel reminder of all of this sleep-related business last night with the bay area thunderstorm waking me after only 3 hours of sleep and the storm and heat keeping me awake until my body screamed for a rare noon siesta.
didibus 6y ago
I'm someone who needs a lot of sleep, like 9h minimum, so that I feel good and energized during awake time. I'd say, if you feel well rested, energized and just overall feel good when you wake up, you don't have any issue.

pedalpete 6y ago

I'm so happy to see this type of research being more broadly accepted mainstream. We don't have one diet for everybody, one exercise type for everybody, why do we think sleep would be any different. We're working on improving sleep performance, if you're interested in this sort of thing, sign-up to get on our waitlist https://withbliss.com https://withbliss.com or reach out.

projektfu 6y ago

"I read an article saying not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep!" "You are gaining weight, not finishing your work, and you had a car accident last week." "I feel fine on 5 hours of sleep, shut up!"

peteforde 6y ago
It's obnoxious to approach such a complicated domain with the attitude that you are right and people who are thriving are wrong.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  The problem is that people who are sleep-deprived tend to believe they are "thriving" (or at least "feeling fine") when they are very much not.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    If they're happy and productive and generally satisfied with their life, I'd call that thriving. If they're struggling, occasionally (or more) depressed, unproductive or unmotivated, lack meaningful social interactions... Sleep could be an issue. Or it could be the depression that is in turn causing the sleep and other issues. These things are complex.
    - watwut 6y ago
      Here is key: > "You are gaining weight, not finishing your work, and you had a car accident last week." And I have seen this in play. Otherwise smart person coding stupid things, saying stupid things, getting overly emotional and angry over stupid things all the while proudly claiming the 6 hours a night are enough for him. And blaming everyone and everything for all the problems, just not himself. And everyone else is unhappy due to consequences. And him unhappy due to constant conflicts he is in that he does not really understands. But like, those were totally not his fault, they were everyone elses fault.
  - 6y ago

michaericalribo 6y ago

It seems the problem is not that _everyone_ needs a full 8, but that many people _assume_ they don’t need that much, even though they do. I don’t sleep 8 every night: sometimes it’s longer, usually it’s more like 6, but either way I don’t use an alarm to wake up. The key for me was to prioritize my sleep health by minimizing screen time before bed, going to bed consistently at the same time, and always leaving enough time to get 8 full hours if my body ends up wanting it. I don’t _always_ need 8 hours, but it makes a huge difference when I do. And empirically, my well being—physical and mental—improves substantially if I am going out of my way to tend my sleep health.

vecter 6y ago
Anyone who isn't using flux[0] after 8pm is seriously hurting themselves. Once you use it, you can't go back. [0] https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/
- FooHentai 6y ago
  Or the blue light-removing features that are built into most modern OS - Windows 10 has it ('Night Light'), Android ('Night Mode') and IoS ('Night Shift') have it. Flux was great but for the most part modern OS' have caught up and it's no longer needed.
  - bangonkeyboard 6y ago
    'In 2009 we first approached Apple to get f.lux on iPhones. Years of promises of API access. The last conversation we had with them was "that's too weird for most of our users. Like the Klingon keyboard." Then, they announced their clone onstage, Macworld 2016.' — https://twitter.com/JustGetFlux/status/1288979404677292032 https://twitter.com/JustGetFlux/status/1288979404677292032
    - guywithabike 6y ago
      It's very likely that the team that said "yes" is not the same team that said "no". Apple is a big company. There's more than one person there.

michaericalribo 6y ago

An interesting aside: circadian rhythms often group in multiples of 1.5 hours, and I can say from experience that it is better for me to get 7.5 than 8 hours Hell, disrupting REM mid-cycle is worse (in my experience) than fewer cycles that are all while: better to get 6 hours than 8.

sasaf5 6y ago
True, I started waking up much better with one of those apps that wakes you up when it senses movement. It has reduced a lot the urge to hit snooze.
ineedasername 6y ago
That kind of fits my experience. I used to wake up around 7:15. Now with COVID work from home and no commute or need to go through a morning routine, it's naturally turned into about 8:45. Pop up, grab some food, do a few hours of work, then take a break to shower, change, etc. I'll have a tough time when I have to return to the office.
- gen220 6y ago
  This has been my schedule since COVID, too, almost to the minute! At first I felt really weird about working before showering, like it was out of order so it felt wrong. Now, I can’t imagine doing it any other way. Weird! I’m usually done with breakfast and tea around 8:45, and then I work through until noon. Go for a run if the weather’s good, shower, quick bite for lunch, back to work till 6ish. I used to get in to the office around 11 before, regardless of what time I woke up. I can’t help but feel the current (weird) schedule is at least 20% more productive for me. Yea, the office readjustment will suck.
PodCurator 6y ago
I used to do this too. Then I realized this only works if you actually sleep 7.5 hours and it takes average human 14 minutes to fall asleep. I.e. I’d set an alarm 7:30 from when I go to bed but then still felt tired - doing 8 hours felt better with 7hrs45ish the sweet spot. Hence I can see why people just recommend 8 because normal people don’t try to optimize to the minute and better to slightly over estimate rather than definitely underestimate

Accacin 6y ago

I decided that I really am a morning person and decided to go bed around ~2030 (sometimes at the weekend I’ll go bed later if I’m out with family or something) and I wake up when my body is ready. Usually that’s around 0500. Then I walk the dog for 30-40mins, eat breakfast and then do some studying for a few hours before I start work at 0800. I do feel much better, and it’s nice waking up when I’m ready without an alarm.

IgorPartola 6y ago

Having children took me from being able to sleep any time anywhere to having horrible sleep. One of my kids had an incredibly quiet voice in her first three months AND had a habit of spitting up copious amounts when we would put her in her crib. She would start crying and making choking noises but very quietly so I learned to be an incredibly light sleeper. She also would not sleep for the first month unless she was held (she got over it, it wasn’t a big thing, it wasn’t a medical problem, we checked), but it meant that I would stay up holding her and watching TV until 3am and then hand her off to someone else for the rest of the night, getting 4-5 hours of sleep. We sometimes had to keep lights on all night, sometimes TV on to keep adults caring for the kids from falling asleep themselves. It was brutal. A part of it was the breast is best craze that has taken over parenting. I don’t disagree with it, but also some people just don’t produce enough milk to fully sustain a child and you need to supplement. When our kids were older my partner found out that her doctor actually noted that her breast tissue was likely to not produce sufficient quantities of milk on her medical chart, but failed to ever tell her. Hence feeding the kids 8-12 times a night, times two kids. As a result years later I now can’t sleep for more than 5 hours a night without waking up and not being able to go back to sleep for an hour or two. I am slowly figuring out ways to combat this but I have yet to find a solution that lets me sleep a full 7-9 hours my body seems to actually need that doesn’t give me a headache or make my drowsy for the rest of the following day. Sometimes being human is a limitation.

mrfusion 6y ago
> I now can’t sleep for more than 5 hours a night without waking up and not being able to go back to sleep for an hour or two. Have you ruled out alcohol? I’ve heard drinking at night can cause that.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I don’t drink most days, and if I do I don’t get drunk except maybe once a year.
- edoceo 6y ago
  Other sugars too, the blood-sugar drop signals wake up and eat. iIRC

tus88 6y ago

Quality not quantity. Stalin was wrong.

ineedasername 6y ago
I wouldn't say he was wrong, it's just that the quality/quantity balance doesn't balance the same way in every circumstance. And Stalin wasn't making a universal proclamation. Of course he was a brutal dictator who caused the deaths of millions, so it's still probably a good idea to take his "wisdom" with a critical eye.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > he was a brutal dictator who caused the deaths of millions This is a common but incomplete misunderstanding. Stalin was asked to be the leader of a backward, pre-industrial empire. By plundering the Kulak farmers, he was able to finance industrialization and a military, just in time to repel Germany. (Mao did the same thing later.) Fun fact 1: the American builders of Ford's River Rouge factory complex afterwards worked for Stalin to build his factories. Fun fact 2: Stalin was both ally and enemy of all of the Allied and Axis countries at various times during WW2. You could write an entire textbook on just his changing allegiances. Had Stalin not defeated Germany, the Russian people would have been enslaved and starved to death - the stakes were very high in WW2. Typically the Germans would cut calories in occupied countries by half every few months - you can do the math on how long people survived. Of course, Japan told their Singapore prisoners, "Grow your own food."

peteforde 6y ago

After fighting my body my entire life to fit with the mainstream, I switched to a 20-hours up, 7 hours down sleep schedule six months ago. I've never felt better. Instead of feeling like a zombie until 5-6 hours into my day and working late into the night, I now can find myself working minutes after waking up - something I never thought possible. I'm roughly twice as productive as before. It is admittedly difficult to plan ahead; I don't have dependents and I am a solo developer, working on my own schedule. One silver lining of COVID is that people are finally getting a glimpse of what post-9-to-5 cubicle work styles can offer. Why shouldn't we work when and how we are most productive?

aaomidi 6y ago
Can you explain it more?
- peteforde 6y ago
  Sure: what would you like to know? Off the top of my head: - easier to find the will to exercise - less cravings for junk food - depression symptoms occur 80% less - back pain frequently forgets to manifest - I feel more optimistic It's not all roses, though. I am not traditionally employable because I work unpredictable hours. It can be hard to schedule doctor's appointments, for example. The hardest thing is syncing with my SO. She's actually inclined to keep similar hours, but has a 9-5 job. Still, this hasn't been a huge issue. I don't think it could work if you had young children.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    More so what time do you go to bed and wake up, etc?
    - peteforde 6y ago
      I go to sleep 20 hours after I wake up, and I wake up 7 hours later.

lettergram 6y ago

I need maybe 4-5 hours to function and 6 to function well. Anything more than that I feel stressed all day like I missed something. I can typically jump out of bed (literally) at around 6 hours excited for the day and do a full 12 hours of work. That being said, I have slept 8 hours or so when I am sick or feeling a tad depressed. My wife in contrast needs 8-10 hours of sleep to feel that way. But with kids she gets 7-8 hours so she’s always a bit groggy. Ideally We’d sleep without alarms, but our children let us know when it’s time to get up (and there’s some variance there). I think your body adjusts sleep based on its needs and we should probably listen to it.

burlesona 6y ago

> In 2019, Fu and Ptacek discovered two more genes connected to natural short sleep, and they’ll soon submit a paper describing a fourth, providing even more evidence that functioning well on less sleep is a genetic trait. Several years ago I was listening to a Freakonomics Radio series where they interviewed a bunch of big company CEOs, and one thing that I noticed was they all described their normal routine as involving very little sleep. It struck me then that being a high power leader is almost certainly genetic in the same way that genes for height are essentially required to be a serious / professional basketball player. I struggle with sleep, always have, and rarely feel good in the morning without about 8 hours or more in bed. And I’m acutely aware of many of my friends and peers who need much less than this and feel fine. Occasionally I’ll find myself at a conference or something and the group I’m with will stay out late and then get up early and go about their day as normal. I used to try and keep up, but I would be so hung over the next morning (regardless of whether I had anything to drink) as to be non-functional. It’s a sad thing to me to think that I don’t have the genetics to keep up with the people who need a lot less sleep than I do. However, I’m gradually making peace with it, as I focus on finding things I can do with my life that are compatible with my need for more time in bed.

otherme123 6y ago
Well, Marissa Mayer is quite preachy about working long hours and sleeping poorly. She always had important roles in big companies, but he managed Yahoo quite poorly. So she fits the narrative ("no sleep -> CEO"), but that doesn't mean that you will be CEOing correctly. I'm sure there are other good CEOs that sleep 8 or more hours, but they don't talk about it. I hide the fact that I like to sleep at least 8 hours (but 9 would be my optimal), because sleeping 6 hours or less is a medal in my workplace. I only know of Basecamp CEOs that take the opposite stance: they admit to sleep at least 8 hours, take long vacations, having cool hobbies and healthy families, working 40ish hours per week... while keeping their bussiness running happily on profits for 17 years in a row. And boy did they receive criticism for saying it out loud. Nonsense like "if you worked harder and slept less, your bussiness would be billionaire instead of millionaire".
- iamben 6y ago

beenBoutIT 6y ago

President Trump is famous for boasting about how he only sleeps for 4 hours. He claims that reducing his sleeping time down to 4 hours took a tremendous amount of willpower and effort.

shakascchen 6y ago

There would be other issues like how much we can change our sleeping hours and circadian. The article mentioned it's crazy to say everybody has to be the same height, but nutrition and exercise can influence how tall a children is going to be. Besides our heights, from weight to intellectual performance it's always interaction between nature and nurture. Similarly, we shouldn't consider gene as an excuse against trying to be productive given fewer sleep hours. On the other hand, it could be better if we don't have to force ourselves or anyone to sleep fewer even if someday there would be a scientific way to do so.

atemerev 6y ago

Yes, I need 9 hours of sleep per day, ideally 10. Unfortunately, it is hardly possible to have this kind of schedule when your family are all morning birds.

hazbot 6y ago
I feel ya! 9-10 hours optimal over here too. New baby is making that impossible.
nilram 6y ago
I'm also a 9-hour-a-day person. My partner is probably at 7, but gets up quietly. I can function ok with 7, but I'm miserable and much less functional with anything less. Up late packing and up early for a flight? Misery. But, though I won't be going again soon, I enjoy a lot of the aspects of flight and most importantly, I don't have to think much during.

pmiller2 6y ago

> [S]hort sleepers may actually have an edge over everyone else. Research is still early, but Fu has found that besides being more efficient at sleep, they tend to be more energetic and optimistic and have a higher tolerance for pain than people who need to spend more time in bed. They also tend to live longer. And, here I am needing my 8±1 hours every night. Even needing half as much sleep alone would be a real edge. Tack on being naturally more optimistic and having a higher pain tolerance than others, and it starts sounding like a real superpower. Oh, and they live longer, too? This is exciting research, but I can't help but feel either envious or inferior because of it. Yes, it's a personal failing. Sue me. :P My real hope is that this research eventually benefits medicine somehow. Maybe they can put it in a bottle for the rest of us (unlikely!). Or, since lack of sleep is linked to so many conditions, including systemic inflammation, maybe we'll get some insight into what the relationship is between sleep and inflammation? Maybe a "sleep gene panel" will become a standard test and guide how we treat certain conditions? Who knows.

JaumeGreen 6y ago
It sounds like half the advantages, at least, are benefits of sleeping as much as you need. If I don't sleep enough I'm grumpy and apathetic, so if I only needed to sleep 6 hours (instead of 8+) I'm sure I would be happier. So I believe this might have done causation link.

29athrowaway 6y ago

There are different sleep stages. Some stages are more resting than others.

tarasmatsyk 6y ago

The article seems to be too obvious, maybe I am missing some bits of info here. After I read "why we sleep" all these: "sleep faster", "you need 8 hours", "I wake up at 4am" seems ridiculous to me. It's all depends, try to sleep 8 hours and if 6h works for you - lucky you, if 4am works for you - lucky you, if you need 7h or 10h - good, stick to it and adjust your schedule. Despite all the articles on how bad "why we sleep" is, it helped me a lot, at least with basics, that's all I need due to lack of ambition to get a PhD in why people sleep. I tried everything, slept 10h, 8h, 6h, mix(night/day) and there always was only one thing that worked for me: wake up without alarm in the "late morning". No matter how hard I try, morning is just not for me, I fought with it for too many years and the war is over, my sleep always wins. Evening works best for me, no matter of what people try to convince or adjust me to. TL;DR try what works for you and don't try to adjust with others.

T-1000 6y ago

I highly recommend "Why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. It does a great job describing the science of sleep.

peritpatrio 6y ago
Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors — https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
- T-1000 6y ago
  Thanks for the link, will check it out. I note however that Walker has responded to the criticism (https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/#short-sleep https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...).
  - kelnos 6y ago
    From a quick skim of that response, it reads to me like Walker admits to and agrees with at least some of the criticism. But it also looks like he ignores some of the more damning accusations, like cutting out parts of graphs that don't support his theories, being incorrect that the WHO has declared that we have a "sleep loss epidemic", and questions about where he actually earned his PhD (which he seems to continually misrepresent). So yes, he seems to have responded to the criticism, but IMO not really addressed it to a satisfying degree.
    - T-1000 6y ago
      IMO he has mostly satisfying answers. He agrees with some minor points and he doesn't address important stuff like cutting out parts of graphs, but I don't think the criticism is strong enough to conclude that the book is "riddled with scientific and factual errors".
    - criddell 6y ago
      All of what you said might be true and it could still be the best book on why sleep is important.

johnnujler 6y ago

If there is anything that I realized after reading so many (apparent) researches on dietary habits, sleep cycle, exercise, and whatnot is that you are unique and you do what works for you. Most of these are just average(as in expected value) results that are extrapolated out of a superficial survey, which they call study; and some of these are outright bad. Yes, there are general heuristics like being disciplined with your time and effort which if followed can be beneficial, but most of us will have to go through the suffering to discover that; and fwiw, you'll eventually discover that on your as you age and see that your (unrealized) slothfulness, carelessness and temptation is harming you more than you think they are. I use to work at a seed stage startup, where I had to grind out days together without sleeping and eating, because of which I suffered from severe health issues mostly lifestyle related. I browsed through every blog, every paper, every podcast and youtube videos I could get my hands on --- tried all of them over a period of 2.5 years to a deteriorating health and increased stress. Luckily 2 years ago, I went to a Vipasana silent meditation retreat, where for 10 days you eat on time, sleep on time(9pm), wake up on time(4:30am), and meditate rest of the time. I don't how that retreat itself helped me, but I somehow managed to adhere to that schedule for 2 years now and I feel better than ever. NB: I don't meditate all day, but I meditate 1 hour every day while also maintain my eating habits and sleeping habits.

timonoko 6y ago

If you do what @jack do, namely eat only once a day at 13:00 hours, you'll start sleeping like a baby again. Long uninterrupted sleeps with vivid dreams. When you wake up you have take a moment to sort out which things are real and which only happens in the dream-world, which forms a static continuum of unique persons, themes and storylines. @jack does not mention these crazy dream issues, because it would effect the Twitter valuation and his own valuation too.

nigerian1981 6y ago

Margaret Tatcher famously only slept for 4 hours, but it’s said she used to nap in the car whenever she could. I think cultures where they take a nap during the day, such as the siesta in Spain, may be onto something. More offices need to have sleep pods.

new_guy 6y ago
The issue is we're calling it a 'nap' but it's not, it's basically 'biphasic sleep', before the industrial revolution it used to be the standard. Sleep, wake up for a few hours, sleep again. This new-fangled 8 hour block of sleep people seem to think they need to do is incredibly detrimental to health.
- nigerian1981 6y ago
  Yes I do remember reading a while back that this used to be very common. It started dwindling in the late 17th century and was pretty much obsolete by the early 20th century. This period was often used for prayer, or writing, or sex, or even for visiting the neighbours.

FrojoS 6y ago

A common suggestion, also in this thread, for increased sleep quality is limiting screen time or any stimulating activity before bed time. But what to do then? Talking to housemates might be ok, but what if you have none, or the conversations end up stimulating? Similar for books. The books Im usually interested in (non fiction) tend to be very stimulating. I remember fiction to be quite stimulating, too. I guess the crux of the problem is, how do you stick to doing something that is boring on purpose? And is the improvement in sleep quality really worth it?

Breza 6y ago
I used to work overnight and trained myself to get better at sleep. It's more than just limiting screen time. I started sleeping better when I created an entire process that signaled to my body that it was time to sleep.
cvolzer3 6y ago
My take is that it's about the "stimulating activity" rather than the actual screen time. When broken down it's intuitive, but the "reduce screen time" adage often gets repeated without that distinction. Specifically about your problem: for me, I move from a state of "active engagement" to "passive consumption". 1 to 2 hours before bed, I stop doing anything engaging that requires my active participation - work, video games, learning. I shift to lounging on the couch and reading fiction or watching a movie/show. The key is in my intentions behind each: in the evening, my goal is to relax. I dont turn on a movie with the intention to learn or to be entertained; I'm just there to experience it. Sorry if that's too abstract; the feeling is hard to communicate. Hopefully it's a useful starting point for further thinking.
- FrojoS 6y ago
  It's actually very helpful advice. Thank you. A few things that come to my mind now: 1) I did notice though that some form of learning, e.g. vocabulary, can help me fall asleep. I guess it requires focus - which makes me feel tired - but is also dull. 2) Reading in low light conditions makes my eyes tired. It feels harder to keep them open which can work as a trigger for sleeping. It's not bad for eye health by the way [1]. 3) The biggest hurdle often seems discipline. It's just too tempting to continue a fun and engaging activity, like playing video games, way past bedtime. The easiest solution would be to not engage in them at all in the evening, but then you might never find time for it. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/safeguarding-your-sight#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Reading%20in%20dim%20light,page%2C%20not%20over%20your%20shoulder https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/safeguarding-your-....

waltwalther 6y ago

You could replace Seemay Chou with my my name in that first paragraph. For as long as I can remember I have went to bed at midnight(ish) and have been wide awake and productive around 4-430 without the use of any alarm. Consistently. Weekends and holidays. My family does not understand it, and I do not understand how they allow themselves to sleep in everyday. I like it like this. I get to be awake and go about my business without interruption when the people around me are asleep. I get much done between the hours of 4am and 8am. When I travel for work I get to see other cities with almost no traffic on the streets. New York and LA, Atlanta. It has a certain feeling to it. Although in recent years if I happen to be on the streets at 5am I usually notice a fair amount of foot traffic outside of fitness clubs. At first I saw these people as intruders, encroaching on my little, peaceful world. The early morning has a certain feeling that is somehow diminished with the addition of other people...

balfirevic 6y ago
> and I do not understand how they allow themselves to sleep in everyday You are very fortunate with your sleeping needs. What exactly is there for you to understand? You speak about them allowing themselves to sleep in, yet you don't disallow yourself to do anything but just wake up naturally without alarm.

The_rationalist 6y ago

For example, with less than ~9h of sleep my well being is significantly affected.

grasonfire 6y ago

tl;dr 8 hours is a common standard, but you probably need a different amount.

mschuster91 6y ago

It's not just the amount of sleep that affects us. For me, the biggest improvement I had thanks to the 'rona lockdowns was I finally can follow a decent sleep schedule - wake me up at 8 or earlier and I'm essentially an unusable wreck for the first 4 or so hours, so when I was able to sleep until 9 because I had no need to rush for eating, showering and to travel the ~45min to work I actually am way more productive. Now, if politicians could get their butts to introducing 32 or shorter hour work weeks (=4 day work week)... that would be yet another boost, for physical and mental health as well as for unemployment numbers.

kyuudou 6y ago

For me, if I don't workout, I just need about 6 hours. If I workout (whether cardio, strength or both but especially with strength), I definitely need 8 hours. Every few weeks I find myself sleeping 10-12 hours with non-stop vivid REM dreams.

WMCRUN 6y ago

> ‘The researchers expected that regardless of the time of day, men in both groups would see improvements in blood-sugar levels. But “when they exercised in the morning, they actually had slightly higher levels of blood sugar [than baseline], which we didn’t expect at all,” ‘ There’s a circadian effect to blood glucose...it’s part of how you wake up. Kind of surprised the authors of a circadian rhythm study didn’t factor this in.