12 ms·

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries

by netcan 6y ago

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused an inflation in credit, prices, and cost. This is reversible, but deflation is always painful. Meanwhile, I disagree that “underwater basket weaving” degrees are the problem. At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance. These business degrees are fake subjects. The material was invented for the purpose of creating a textbook, course or somesuch. Nothing they teach is useful. Worryingly, these have the greatest intake... because they're easy, and sound relevant to getting a job. I do agree the college format should change completely, go online, etc. I think efficiency should be a part of that. But, I also think we should try to keep the level of investment (time, money, social capital) in education high. Get efficient by doing more, not doing the same for less.

tmaly 6y ago
Governments both state and federal could provide incentives for low cost trade schools if they wanted to. What is to stop them from granting favorable loan interest or even forgiving the loans like they do for the peace corp?
- netcan 6y ago
  It's hard to run a micro-policy in a contradictory macro-environment. The incentives (mostly via credit, but also social incentive) for regular college is already super-high... as is the incentive of colleges that receive this credit as payment. You would need to overcome that with even bigger incentives... creating the same inflation problem, but now for trade schools. If you don't, trade schools have to compete with colleges funded by the ever increasing student loan complex. Imagine a country that has a suburban housing policy similar to the college education policy. Contractors get subsidies, donations, grants. Buyers have access to easy, no money down, no question mortgages backed by a government. Prices inflate. Houses get bigger. A massive debt pool keeps growing. You say: "this is really inefficient. Don't some of you want downtown apartments instead?" This isn't going to work while competing with the other housing system... no matter how reasonable the plan is. Throw in a stigma about apartment-dwellers... your plan is now doomed. Unless students are paying out of pocket (student loan schemes don't count), then you need price controls.
grecy 6y ago
> The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries In what OECD countries do students go into crippling debt for their tertiary education? There are only two that I know of, one of which being the USA.
- shard 6y ago
  Well don't leave us hanging, what's the other one?
  - janitor_monkey 6y ago
    UK, probably
  - grecy 6y ago
    Canada's system is pretty messed up, tons of people graduate with $50k-$100k in debt, and interest and forced payments kick in essentially the day you graduate.
muh_gradle 6y ago
Do you have any sources for the increase in government assistance? Because that doesn't seem right to me. Tuition has increased at a far higher rate compared to say government expenditure on Pell grants and government subsidized loans. But I could be wrong.
LargeWu 6y ago
I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of college. I know people who went to college, but lived at home with their parents "to save money". In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. They are the people that haven't changed at all since high school. They're the people that are afraid of everything in the world outside their small circle. I guess that's fine for them, but I would want more for myself, and for my children.
- netcan 6y ago
  True. I don't think we disagree much. This is part of the reason why I think the level of investment needs to remain high. College performs a complex task. It can't just be replaced by coursera. I do think that in-person lectures, course design and such need a total overhaul. Modern technology does change the equation. In-person lectures no longer make sense, for example. That doesn't mean in-person college doesn't make sense.
- Gracana 6y ago
  Is college actually good at that sort of thing, or is it just better than staying at home? If I spent half my college tuition on networking, social clubs, conferences, hobby groups, etc, I bet I could do a lot better than I did at my college campus.
  - cellular 6y ago
    Dang! That is something I had not considered before! I think that would be a great strategy! Spending the money on hobby groups, conferences etc could be put on a resume! Now thinking of all kinds of options that would give better experience...it seems driving to these might be the bottleneck. But surely there are ones that can subject a student to different opinion/people etc without needing to commute. Heck even a good internship could replace dorm life, and would actually PAY the student.
non-entity 6y ago
> Meanwhile, I disagree that “underwater basket weaving” degrees are the problem. At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance. I somewhat agree. Sadly, I find that of the degrees offered online, they mostly seem to be either the "underwater basket weaving" degrees or the "online marketing" degrees.
kriro 6y ago
I think calling "most business degrees excepting accounting and finance" a problem just seems wrong and frankly pretty arrogant. I do think too many people take business degrees and think they'll just "become managers" (and there's a high number of "don't know what else to do" type of students) but there are many actually useful things taught in the typical degree programs. I mean thinking of a typical non specialized business BA here (Germany) the math and statistics classes are pretty useful, as is the basic economics primer. The required law courses and tax related courses are pretty useful. Accounting, finance and controlling are useful as well and so are marketing (mostly math/data analysis), strategy, project management and production management (usually operations research centric but also covers quality management). HR seems fairly meh unless you want to go into HR (as the most relevant stuff is already covered in law). The typical electives cover more in depth of the above and sometimes business information systems, psychology, programming and the like. And there's some other stuff that's pretty useful like negotiation classes or case studies (if they cover interesting topics).
- netcan 6y ago
  Well... criticising anyone's degree (even though I also have such a degree) is always arrogant. That's the point we're at though. It has become the most popular degree while simultaneously getting worse in quality... starting from a low base. As I said, I have one of these degrees, and have hired and worked with many people with such degrees. First, I agree that the math and (particularly) the statistics classes are useful. Finance and accounting too, in theory, though the vast majority do not seem to internalize much. Business pretty minimal though. A 3-4 years business degree comes with less math education than the first year of an engineering degree, chemistry, physics, etc. Also.. the majority of business degrees today allow students to avoid most math altogether... and most students do this. The whole thing is continuously moving downmarket. Most business degrees (graduate & undergraduate) are not recognised BAs anymore. "The market" wants easy degrees with no math. They also don't want accounting or finance. This leaves just the nonsense. IMO, at this point, most business degrees are less useful than history, philosophy, etc. Graduate salaries are about the same.
  - fock 6y ago
dghughes 6y ago
>These business degrees are fake subjects... I went to college late dropped out and then went to college again even later in life. There are many more job opportunities available to me now. But funny you talk about business degrees I found out I lost a job I was qualified for to a person with a business degree. It was just Helpdesk but the business degree person had no IT experience. It was at a large well-known financial organization. >I do agree the college format should change completely, go online, etc. I think efficiency should be a part of that. When I went back to college many of the students younger than me had nothing but contempt for classroom style learning. Some of those people failed within the first semester or early second semester. There's also a strong belief anything can be learned by Googling it. I learned about Course Hero when my lab partner submitted a paper we worked on, I was almost expelled. Knowing something takes effort even if you are handed the answers. You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  > You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned. That's right. It's like using a lever to lift that barbell isn't going to make you stronger. Training your brain requires effort, just like training your muscles.
stale2002 6y ago
> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance. I don't think that the data doesn't really support your conclusion. I would define "success" or "usefulness" on the basis of something measurable, such as average starting salaries for a given major. Even if business degrees are "fake" subjects, I believe they have higher average outcomes/starting salaries than most humanities majors. Seeing as outcome and job opportunities are the real thing that the customers (students) care about, it makes the most sense to look at the actual outcomes, using a measurable metric.
bluGill 6y ago
Is college for 'betterment' or 'your interest', about getting a job. I'm not against the first two, but as a member of society I'm only interested in the last one, and I don't think I should be asked to subsidize your hobbies. If you can't get a better job because of education then I want nothing to do with it. (I'm also interested in improving science)
- netcan 6y ago
  Betterment means all of these. What it means to you means what you think is better. Anyway, why should a hobbiest be asked to subsidize your career progression?
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Great question. If someone gets a good job they won't be jealous of me. Most violent crime is by poor people, so I have an interest in there being no poor people.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
beaner 6y ago
> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actually go on to do something near-related to those topics. Many (most?) others go on to work recruiters, office managers, in call centers (etc), immediately throwing away their studies and never revisiting them. "online marketing" degrees are just part of this category, not anything special in themselves. The trend hopefully is not just in how study happens but what people choose to study, because a lot of time and money is being wasted in things that never get used, because a lot of students have no real interests, and we teach them if they choose and go to college for anything - anything at all - then they'll magically do well. This is a lie and a disservice. We should be pushing people towards STEM and trade schools. Hopefully this situation helps do that.
- non-entity 6y ago
  > We should be pushing people towards STEM and trade schools. Hopefully this situation helps do that. Might as well cut the S and M off that because most people who get a science degree probably aren't working in the filednwithout higher education and even the there's so few jobs available. Most people with math education probably aren't working directly in mathematics, but at least you can make the argument that there are other fields where math is related enough to be somewhat useful.
- netcan 6y ago
  International relations is an actual subject area. It's true that we don't need that many diplomats, and that people might be just studying it out of interest... or because it sounded better than something else. Most business courses are literally fake. The stuff being taught was invented in order to be taught. Quite a lot of it is learning the meaning of terms that were invented in order to be taught. It's not that there aren't real business subjects. Finance and accounting are real subjects. Economics is a real subject, in the sense that philosophy is a real subject. Statistics, etc. The trend is (and has been for decades) to teach mostly (or only) fluff courses. The bottom third of these things are functional equivalents of diploma mills. Ask business graduates over a pint. Most will admit it.
kortilla 6y ago
Regardless of how much student interest there is in dark ages French literature, it doesn’t do them any good to prepare them for working or even interacting with modern society.

by netcan 6y ago

tmaly 6y ago

Governments both state and federal could provide incentives for low cost trade schools if they wanted to. What is to stop them from granting favorable loan interest or even forgiving the loans like they do for the peace corp?

netcan 6y ago
It's hard to run a micro-policy in a contradictory macro-environment. The incentives (mostly via credit, but also social incentive) for regular college is already super-high... as is the incentive of colleges that receive this credit as payment. You would need to overcome that with even bigger incentives... creating the same inflation problem, but now for trade schools. If you don't, trade schools have to compete with colleges funded by the ever increasing student loan complex. Imagine a country that has a suburban housing policy similar to the college education policy. Contractors get subsidies, donations, grants. Buyers have access to easy, no money down, no question mortgages backed by a government. Prices inflate. Houses get bigger. A massive debt pool keeps growing. You say: "this is really inefficient. Don't some of you want downtown apartments instead?" This isn't going to work while competing with the other housing system... no matter how reasonable the plan is. Throw in a stigma about apartment-dwellers... your plan is now doomed. Unless students are paying out of pocket (student loan schemes don't count), then you need price controls.

grecy 6y ago

> The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries In what OECD countries do students go into crippling debt for their tertiary education? There are only two that I know of, one of which being the USA.

shard 6y ago
Well don't leave us hanging, what's the other one?
- janitor_monkey 6y ago
  UK, probably
- grecy 6y ago
  Canada's system is pretty messed up, tons of people graduate with $50k-$100k in debt, and interest and forced payments kick in essentially the day you graduate.

muh_gradle 6y ago

Do you have any sources for the increase in government assistance? Because that doesn't seem right to me. Tuition has increased at a far higher rate compared to say government expenditure on Pell grants and government subsidized loans. But I could be wrong.

LargeWu 6y ago

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of college. I know people who went to college, but lived at home with their parents "to save money". In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. They are the people that haven't changed at all since high school. They're the people that are afraid of everything in the world outside their small circle. I guess that's fine for them, but I would want more for myself, and for my children.

netcan 6y ago
True. I don't think we disagree much. This is part of the reason why I think the level of investment needs to remain high. College performs a complex task. It can't just be replaced by coursera. I do think that in-person lectures, course design and such need a total overhaul. Modern technology does change the equation. In-person lectures no longer make sense, for example. That doesn't mean in-person college doesn't make sense.
Gracana 6y ago
Is college actually good at that sort of thing, or is it just better than staying at home? If I spent half my college tuition on networking, social clubs, conferences, hobby groups, etc, I bet I could do a lot better than I did at my college campus.
- cellular 6y ago
  Dang! That is something I had not considered before! I think that would be a great strategy! Spending the money on hobby groups, conferences etc could be put on a resume! Now thinking of all kinds of options that would give better experience...it seems driving to these might be the bottleneck. But surely there are ones that can subject a student to different opinion/people etc without needing to commute. Heck even a good internship could replace dorm life, and would actually PAY the student.

non-entity 6y ago

> Meanwhile, I disagree that “underwater basket weaving” degrees are the problem. At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance. I somewhat agree. Sadly, I find that of the degrees offered online, they mostly seem to be either the "underwater basket weaving" degrees or the "online marketing" degrees.

kriro 6y ago

I think calling "most business degrees excepting accounting and finance" a problem just seems wrong and frankly pretty arrogant. I do think too many people take business degrees and think they'll just "become managers" (and there's a high number of "don't know what else to do" type of students) but there are many actually useful things taught in the typical degree programs. I mean thinking of a typical non specialized business BA here (Germany) the math and statistics classes are pretty useful, as is the basic economics primer. The required law courses and tax related courses are pretty useful. Accounting, finance and controlling are useful as well and so are marketing (mostly math/data analysis), strategy, project management and production management (usually operations research centric but also covers quality management). HR seems fairly meh unless you want to go into HR (as the most relevant stuff is already covered in law). The typical electives cover more in depth of the above and sometimes business information systems, psychology, programming and the like. And there's some other stuff that's pretty useful like negotiation classes or case studies (if they cover interesting topics).

netcan 6y ago
Well... criticising anyone's degree (even though I also have such a degree) is always arrogant. That's the point we're at though. It has become the most popular degree while simultaneously getting worse in quality... starting from a low base. As I said, I have one of these degrees, and have hired and worked with many people with such degrees. First, I agree that the math and (particularly) the statistics classes are useful. Finance and accounting too, in theory, though the vast majority do not seem to internalize much. Business pretty minimal though. A 3-4 years business degree comes with less math education than the first year of an engineering degree, chemistry, physics, etc. Also.. the majority of business degrees today allow students to avoid most math altogether... and most students do this. The whole thing is continuously moving downmarket. Most business degrees (graduate & undergraduate) are not recognised BAs anymore. "The market" wants easy degrees with no math. They also don't want accounting or finance. This leaves just the nonsense. IMO, at this point, most business degrees are less useful than history, philosophy, etc. Graduate salaries are about the same.
- fock 6y ago

dghughes 6y ago

>These business degrees are fake subjects... I went to college late dropped out and then went to college again even later in life. There are many more job opportunities available to me now. But funny you talk about business degrees I found out I lost a job I was qualified for to a person with a business degree. It was just Helpdesk but the business degree person had no IT experience. It was at a large well-known financial organization. >I do agree the college format should change completely, go online, etc. I think efficiency should be a part of that. When I went back to college many of the students younger than me had nothing but contempt for classroom style learning. Some of those people failed within the first semester or early second semester. There's also a strong belief anything can be learned by Googling it. I learned about Course Hero when my lab partner submitted a paper we worked on, I was almost expelled. Knowing something takes effort even if you are handed the answers. You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned.

WalterBright 6y ago
> You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned. That's right. It's like using a lever to lift that barbell isn't going to make you stronger. Training your brain requires effort, just like training your muscles.

stale2002 6y ago

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance. I don't think that the data doesn't really support your conclusion. I would define "success" or "usefulness" on the basis of something measurable, such as average starting salaries for a given major. Even if business degrees are "fake" subjects, I believe they have higher average outcomes/starting salaries than most humanities majors. Seeing as outcome and job opportunities are the real thing that the customers (students) care about, it makes the most sense to look at the actual outcomes, using a measurable metric.

bluGill 6y ago

Is college for 'betterment' or 'your interest', about getting a job. I'm not against the first two, but as a member of society I'm only interested in the last one, and I don't think I should be asked to subsidize your hobbies. If you can't get a better job because of education then I want nothing to do with it. (I'm also interested in improving science)

netcan 6y ago
Betterment means all of these. What it means to you means what you think is better. Anyway, why should a hobbiest be asked to subsidize your career progression?
- bluGill 6y ago
  Great question. If someone gets a good job they won't be jealous of me. Most violent crime is by poor people, so I have an interest in there being no poor people.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

beaner 6y ago

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actually go on to do something near-related to those topics. Many (most?) others go on to work recruiters, office managers, in call centers (etc), immediately throwing away their studies and never revisiting them. "online marketing" degrees are just part of this category, not anything special in themselves. The trend hopefully is not just in how study happens but what people choose to study, because a lot of time and money is being wasted in things that never get used, because a lot of students have no real interests, and we teach them if they choose and go to college for anything - anything at all - then they'll magically do well. This is a lie and a disservice. We should be pushing people towards STEM and trade schools. Hopefully this situation helps do that.

non-entity 6y ago
> We should be pushing people towards STEM and trade schools. Hopefully this situation helps do that. Might as well cut the S and M off that because most people who get a science degree probably aren't working in the filednwithout higher education and even the there's so few jobs available. Most people with math education probably aren't working directly in mathematics, but at least you can make the argument that there are other fields where math is related enough to be somewhat useful.
netcan 6y ago
International relations is an actual subject area. It's true that we don't need that many diplomats, and that people might be just studying it out of interest... or because it sounded better than something else. Most business courses are literally fake. The stuff being taught was invented in order to be taught. Quite a lot of it is learning the meaning of terms that were invented in order to be taught. It's not that there aren't real business subjects. Finance and accounting are real subjects. Economics is a real subject, in the sense that philosophy is a real subject. Statistics, etc. The trend is (and has been for decades) to teach mostly (or only) fluff courses. The bottom third of these things are functional equivalents of diploma mills. Ask business graduates over a pint. Most will admit it.

kortilla 6y ago

Regardless of how much student interest there is in dark ages French literature, it doesn’t do them any good to prepare them for working or even interacting with modern society.