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You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, a

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing the guy with a hat pin seems pretty understandable in those circumstances too.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I can certainly understand the impulse to react with overwhelming force. Even as a man, many potential assailants are larger and stronger than me. But I'd surely go to prison if I followed through and stabbed some stranger for putting their arm on my shoulders. One of the first things you learn in any kind of self-defense training is that you should not - and legally must not - wield a weapon except to protect yourself from an immediate risk of serious injury.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included. That’s not what this is describing, not remotely.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  > What if I have a blood clotting disorder? I guess the safest answer is don't go around groping strangers. > What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? I'm a male who has ridden NYC subways for 15+ years, and have been groped probably a half dozen times. It is clear when it happens versus when a bump happens.
- lolc 6y ago
  Some attacks are most effectively prevented by the threat of immediate, excessive violence. It was just a novelty that females would operate without a male intermediate. Which is why it made news.
- CarbyAu 6y ago
  The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What you describe as mental gymnastics seems straightforward to me. As for what you perceive as escalation. The situation has already escalated: Confined space, obvious aggressor doing OBVIOUSLY wrong thing to a vulnerable, complete stranger. There is no way to read their intent as friendly at that point. This is self defence. Hence your other later reasonable sentence DOES apply. in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included About the only thing you said that was reasonable. As for your lame "blood clotting" mental gymnastics, this is extra information not available at the time. You can't make decisions on information you don't have or can't reasonably assume. If you assume your blood clotting disorder argument to be valid then in a split second of self-defence: - I need to canvass the knowledge of the medical establishment to know every possible medical condition a person could have and... - avoid triggering every such possibility. Tell me again that your "blood clotting" argument makes sense. And even assuming it played out this way, I would be unhappy a person died, but given the information at the time I wouldn't regret the decision/action one iota. Morally clean and happy to sleep like a baby. Accidental bump? Not what this was. Another mental gymnastic flip on your part. This was a simple moment of self defence with a measured (She didn't stab him in the face) - but not unwarranted - action. Edit:text flow, no words deleted.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I can certainly understand the impulse to react with overwhelming force. Even as a man, many potential assailants are larger and stronger than me. But I'd surely go to prison if I followed through and stabbed some stranger for putting their arm on my shoulders. One of the first things you learn in any kind of self-defense training is that you should not - and legally must not - wield a weapon except to protect yourself from an immediate risk of serious injury.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included. That’s not what this is describing, not remotely.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 6y ago
> What if I have a blood clotting disorder? I guess the safest answer is don't go around groping strangers. > What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? I'm a male who has ridden NYC subways for 15+ years, and have been groped probably a half dozen times. It is clear when it happens versus when a bump happens.
lolc 6y ago
Some attacks are most effectively prevented by the threat of immediate, excessive violence. It was just a novelty that females would operate without a male intermediate. Which is why it made news.
CarbyAu 6y ago
The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What you describe as mental gymnastics seems straightforward to me. As for what you perceive as escalation. The situation has already escalated: Confined space, obvious aggressor doing OBVIOUSLY wrong thing to a vulnerable, complete stranger. There is no way to read their intent as friendly at that point. This is self defence. Hence your other later reasonable sentence DOES apply. in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included About the only thing you said that was reasonable. As for your lame "blood clotting" mental gymnastics, this is extra information not available at the time. You can't make decisions on information you don't have or can't reasonably assume. If you assume your blood clotting disorder argument to be valid then in a split second of self-defence: - I need to canvass the knowledge of the medical establishment to know every possible medical condition a person could have and... - avoid triggering every such possibility. Tell me again that your "blood clotting" argument makes sense. And even assuming it played out this way, I would be unhappy a person died, but given the information at the time I wouldn't regret the decision/action one iota. Morally clean and happy to sleep like a baby. Accidental bump? Not what this was. Another mental gymnastic flip on your part. This was a simple moment of self defence with a measured (She didn't stab him in the face) - but not unwarranted - action. Edit:text flow, no words deleted.