6 ms·

If you offer people stable work, with good pay and benefits, pension, healthcare (in the US), you won't have a shortage of applicants believe me. This myth bein

by thorin 6y ago

If you offer people stable work, with good pay and benefits, pension, healthcare (in the US), you won't have a shortage of applicants believe me. This myth being spread that people want flexible work is perpetuated by the people who benefit.

rmrfstar 6y ago
Sorry that my sarcasm wasn't clear. The idea that people enjoy being marginally attached "gig workers" is absurd. Talk to an Uber driver. If they aren't scared that you are a spy from corporate, they will tell you what they really think.
londons_explore 6y ago
I want flexible work... The ability to earn some money with zero notice is awesome. The minute you start requiring contracts and working hours, and qualifications, and exclusivity, it has suddenly made life dull. Suddenly you're a drone wearing a suit working 9-5 for 50 years then retiring when you're too old to fulfil your dreams. No thanks!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thorin 6y ago
  I'm not saying no-one wants it. The vast majority of people would love to take a safe job working in a car plant or in the civil service if it paid for a good lifestyle, home etc. Once you have a family you have certain restrictions on routine e.g. school that force you to do things in a certain way even if you're completely flexible. I've had plenty of career gaps and flexibility but strangely all within the flexibility of pretty standard permanent jobs.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    That’s really only one way to look at flexibility. I’ve had my employment end rather abruptly in the past, and I turned to gig work to get by (it wasn’t Uber, but it was the same sort of employment relationship). The issue I had wasn’t that I could only work certain hours in the day. It was that I needed to start a new job immediately. If only stable long term employment relationships were legal, then I would have had to search for weeks, go through endless recruiting processes, and if I was lucky I could have expected to get my next pay check in a couple of months. That’s what happens when you require employers to make that level of commitment to people. Having a job available that I could essentially just turn up to and start doing immediately, and then stop doing just as quickly, was exactly what I needed. Especially because I was quite young and financially unstable at the time. It really saved me back then, and if somebody had tried to tell me that they wanted to prohibit me from doing that, because the work I was doing didn’t meet their standards, I would have told them to take a hike. What happens when you try to forcibly impose those standards isn’t that everybody’s working conditions/arrangements magically improve. What happens is the price of labor goes up, the demand for labor goes down, and you end up taking work away from people that were happy to do it, and leaving them with no work at all.
    - rmrfstar 6y ago
      > prohibit me from doing that As far as I can tell, no one is talking about prohibiting temporary contract work. What most people seem to be saying is, you shouldn't be able to pretend that people are temporary contract workers when they really aren't.
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        If it had taken me 12 months of working that job to get me by while I found a new permanent one, I would have done it for 12 months, and been quite grateful to have it. I should be the person who has the greatest say in whether I’m a contract worker or not, and exactly what you are talking about is prohibiting me from doing that.
        rmrfstar 6y ago
        Semi-related question. Do you think that: (a) It is self-evident that Uber and Walmart workers are reasonably compensated, because they agreed to their wages in a market transaction; or (b) There are structural forces that compel Uber and Walmart workers to capture as income an unreasonably low fraction of the benefit they provide the market; or (c) Something else
        AmericanChopper 6y ago
        I don’t think anything can be self evidently reasonable, because reasonable is intrinsically an opinion, and an opinion is intrinsically not a self evident fact. One thing that is self evident is that Uber and Walmart workers have found an employment arrangement that they prefer to have over unemployment, so I’d guess most of them wouldn’t be happy with that being taken from them, and being given unemployment in return. Your point b also invokes that reasonableness opinion, but makes a further mistake of presuming that remuneration is determined by value provided (by whatever metric it is that you think that should be judged). Wages are set by supply and demand, for a price to be high there needs to be more people wanting to buy something than there is people wanting to sell it. That is why unskilled labor is worth so little. It’s also why oxygen (incredibly valuable) is free, and why some bureaucrats (incredibly not valuable) can end up being paid quite a lot. But you’re right. That is not a relevant question. What you’re talking about is taking jobs away from people, and replacing them with nothing. The anti-contractor laws don’t just affect low paid jobs either. Which is why every Vox journalist in California was so surprised to see themselves laid off after AB5 passed. Thankfully I don’t live in a jurisdiction that’s considering such legislation, but if I did, I would leave. I’ve been on an endlessly revolving short term contract with the same organisation for nearly 3 years now. They would love it if I didn’t have the option to contract, because I earn at least 3x what an equivalent permanent team member would. I’m sure they would be very grateful if somebody were to prohibit me from engaging in such an arrangement with them.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    I think a problem that most people are making is comparing uber to an idealized alternative. Of course people would choose a stable, easier, and better paying job opposed to gig work. That job doesn't exist for everyone.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cik2e 6y ago
It’s not a myth. The article says that 2/3 of drivers highly value the flexibility arrangement. I’ve driven Uber for that exact reason myself. I’ve also spoken to many drivers and almost every single one has said something about “being your own boss” as being the key benefit. Sure, there maybe plenty of people who would love to be Uber employees but they aren’t the majority of those driving for Uber today. What Uber drivers really want is more money, and the continued flexibility to earn and spend it when and how they want to.
- rvense 6y ago
  But the alternative for most Uber drivers is not a stable job in the fields that the post you're replying to mentioned. It's probably coffee shops, fast food, call center work or similar. If your alternative is that, being your own boss obviously sounds good. The solution here is not just to fix Uber, but generally the circumstances and compensation for these kinds of jobs.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I guess I agree in principle that we should work to build a country where everyone has a satisfying job and makes enough money to live a decent life. But that doesn't seem like a feasible near-term project, so we're gonna have to figure out how things should work in the interim.
  - pnutjam 6y ago
    Yes, if you've never worked a scheduled service sector job you don't understand. 6am to 2pm on day, 8pm to 4pm the next and 3 days of 3p to 10pm in a row. That makes Uber look good, especially when that schedule is not known until the day before it starts for many workers.
- rbg246 6y ago
  They like flexibility because it's their second job trying to make enough to live on.

by thorin 6y ago

rmrfstar 6y ago

Sorry that my sarcasm wasn't clear. The idea that people enjoy being marginally attached "gig workers" is absurd. Talk to an Uber driver. If they aren't scared that you are a spy from corporate, they will tell you what they really think.

londons_explore 6y ago

I want flexible work... The ability to earn some money with zero notice is awesome. The minute you start requiring contracts and working hours, and qualifications, and exclusivity, it has suddenly made life dull. Suddenly you're a drone wearing a suit working 9-5 for 50 years then retiring when you're too old to fulfil your dreams. No thanks!

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thorin 6y ago
I'm not saying no-one wants it. The vast majority of people would love to take a safe job working in a car plant or in the civil service if it paid for a good lifestyle, home etc. Once you have a family you have certain restrictions on routine e.g. school that force you to do things in a certain way even if you're completely flexible. I've had plenty of career gaps and flexibility but strangely all within the flexibility of pretty standard permanent jobs.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  That’s really only one way to look at flexibility. I’ve had my employment end rather abruptly in the past, and I turned to gig work to get by (it wasn’t Uber, but it was the same sort of employment relationship). The issue I had wasn’t that I could only work certain hours in the day. It was that I needed to start a new job immediately. If only stable long term employment relationships were legal, then I would have had to search for weeks, go through endless recruiting processes, and if I was lucky I could have expected to get my next pay check in a couple of months. That’s what happens when you require employers to make that level of commitment to people. Having a job available that I could essentially just turn up to and start doing immediately, and then stop doing just as quickly, was exactly what I needed. Especially because I was quite young and financially unstable at the time. It really saved me back then, and if somebody had tried to tell me that they wanted to prohibit me from doing that, because the work I was doing didn’t meet their standards, I would have told them to take a hike. What happens when you try to forcibly impose those standards isn’t that everybody’s working conditions/arrangements magically improve. What happens is the price of labor goes up, the demand for labor goes down, and you end up taking work away from people that were happy to do it, and leaving them with no work at all.
  - rmrfstar 6y ago
    > prohibit me from doing that As far as I can tell, no one is talking about prohibiting temporary contract work. What most people seem to be saying is, you shouldn't be able to pretend that people are temporary contract workers when they really aren't.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      If it had taken me 12 months of working that job to get me by while I found a new permanent one, I would have done it for 12 months, and been quite grateful to have it. I should be the person who has the greatest say in whether I’m a contract worker or not, and exactly what you are talking about is prohibiting me from doing that.
      - rmrfstar 6y ago
        Semi-related question. Do you think that: (a) It is self-evident that Uber and Walmart workers are reasonably compensated, because they agreed to their wages in a market transaction; or (b) There are structural forces that compel Uber and Walmart workers to capture as income an unreasonably low fraction of the benefit they provide the market; or (c) Something else
        AmericanChopper 6y ago
        I don’t think anything can be self evidently reasonable, because reasonable is intrinsically an opinion, and an opinion is intrinsically not a self evident fact. One thing that is self evident is that Uber and Walmart workers have found an employment arrangement that they prefer to have over unemployment, so I’d guess most of them wouldn’t be happy with that being taken from them, and being given unemployment in return. Your point b also invokes that reasonableness opinion, but makes a further mistake of presuming that remuneration is determined by value provided (by whatever metric it is that you think that should be judged). Wages are set by supply and demand, for a price to be high there needs to be more people wanting to buy something than there is people wanting to sell it. That is why unskilled labor is worth so little. It’s also why oxygen (incredibly valuable) is free, and why some bureaucrats (incredibly not valuable) can end up being paid quite a lot. But you’re right. That is not a relevant question. What you’re talking about is taking jobs away from people, and replacing them with nothing. The anti-contractor laws don’t just affect low paid jobs either. Which is why every Vox journalist in California was so surprised to see themselves laid off after AB5 passed. Thankfully I don’t live in a jurisdiction that’s considering such legislation, but if I did, I would leave. I’ve been on an endlessly revolving short term contract with the same organisation for nearly 3 years now. They would love it if I didn’t have the option to contract, because I earn at least 3x what an equivalent permanent team member would. I’m sure they would be very grateful if somebody were to prohibit me from engaging in such an arrangement with them.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  I think a problem that most people are making is comparing uber to an idealized alternative. Of course people would choose a stable, easier, and better paying job opposed to gig work. That job doesn't exist for everyone.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cik2e 6y ago

It’s not a myth. The article says that 2/3 of drivers highly value the flexibility arrangement. I’ve driven Uber for that exact reason myself. I’ve also spoken to many drivers and almost every single one has said something about “being your own boss” as being the key benefit. Sure, there maybe plenty of people who would love to be Uber employees but they aren’t the majority of those driving for Uber today. What Uber drivers really want is more money, and the continued flexibility to earn and spend it when and how they want to.

rvense 6y ago
But the alternative for most Uber drivers is not a stable job in the fields that the post you're replying to mentioned. It's probably coffee shops, fast food, call center work or similar. If your alternative is that, being your own boss obviously sounds good. The solution here is not just to fix Uber, but generally the circumstances and compensation for these kinds of jobs.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I guess I agree in principle that we should work to build a country where everyone has a satisfying job and makes enough money to live a decent life. But that doesn't seem like a feasible near-term project, so we're gonna have to figure out how things should work in the interim.
- pnutjam 6y ago
  Yes, if you've never worked a scheduled service sector job you don't understand. 6am to 2pm on day, 8pm to 4pm the next and 3 days of 3p to 10pm in a row. That makes Uber look good, especially when that schedule is not known until the day before it starts for many workers.
rbg246 6y ago
They like flexibility because it's their second job trying to make enough to live on.