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Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

445 points by aww_dang 6y ago

iampims 6y ago
This is chilling. Democracy in HK is forever gone.
- ivalm 6y ago
  Hopefully not forever, I do believe in change for the better, but for now CCP is an evil force of repression.
  - actuator 6y ago
    I really don't see any change that can realistically take roots there. We have seen harsh sanctions fail to bring changes in a small poor country like NK where anyone looking South must be amazed at where they could have been. In case of PRC, forget a kinetic physical action. Their economy is so interconnected with every other major economy that no one can afford even actual sanctions.
    - pm90 6y ago
      The most practical outcome seems to be a gradual emigration of all the HK citizens to the UK/other countries. I can imagine citizens forming networks where they would warn each other of an upcoming arrest so their friends/family would scurry out of the country. I am hopeful that the sheer number of citizens in HK would perhaps lead to the city retaining some of its independence. We can't predict the future... who knows? What if Xi dies in the next 5 years and his successor isn't such a hardliner?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - actuator 6y ago
        I think that is easy for us as outsiders to say or hope. Leaving everything behind and moving into a foreign land with a different culture is hard and not a lot of places are very welcoming.
      - petre 6y ago
        It's too late for any of that now.
      - terenceng2010 6y ago
        Some professions like teacher are tough to find a similar role in other country. Different qualication, teaching language and teaching method they have to accomendate. It's a tough call to them. For IT profession though, it's more flexible. Personally, I have worked in a multi-nation develop team, and the experience is good.
    - throwaway77643 6y ago
      In the 1920s, I don’t think any person could have imagined the progress in Civil Rights that would occur in America. And yet it happened. From racist Jim Crow laws to Gay Rights, the progress made in 100 years is astonishing. Give the PRC 100 years and who knows how it might change.
      - ffggvv 6y ago
        yes because we have democracy, a constitution, and a working court system and free speech. china has none of that
      - peanutz454 6y ago
        I guess that's exactly what Thatcher thought would happen when she handed over Hong Kong - That China will make progress towards liberalism in politics and economics. Instead of China becoming like the rest of the world, I am wary of the world becoming like China. Progress has been made in the past, but cannot take that for-granted.
        toyg 6y ago
        Thatcher did not “hand over” anything - the lease of HK would expire in 1997, so the UK government had no legal basis to stick around unless the Chinese allowed them to. Unsurprisingly, a “restored” China, now nuclear, said no. Thatcher failed to persuade them otherwise, despite years of negotiations, and was effectively forced to swallow the handover.
      - akiselev 6y ago
        > In the 1920s, I don’t think any person could have imagined the progress in Civil Rights that would occur in America. No one imagined it in the 1920s because they had already imagined it in the 1860s but got Jim Crow instead. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
        AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        And yet, those who didn't imagine it in the 1920's still got civil rights in the 1960s. So in your view, what were we supposed to learn from history?
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > In case of PRC, forget a kinetic physical action. Their economy is so interconnected with every other major economy that no one can afford even actual sanctions. Not suddenly, but every other major economy could probably afford a gradual distancing that ends up in more-or-less the same place.
      - actuator 6y ago
        US's bipartisan opposition might just be electioneering. I think Germany's actions speak far more than any other country's. I would have assumed someone like Merkel to be tough here based on her standing on social issues and how she handled the migrant crisis. She, at least in the West had an image of a liberal leader with the right attitude on challenges of our times like climate change. But even Germany seems to be tiptoeing around while they look to sign a trade deal.
- scoot_718 6y ago
  So too is any success that HK had. China really made the golden goose disappear under mysterious circumstances.
wjossey 6y ago
Steve Lookner runs Agenda Free TV on YouTube, and does a great job covering these types of breaking events. Currently wrapping up a live stream of the arrests and searches right now: https://youtu.be/Db7ON82kBGA https://youtu.be/Db7ON82kBGA
seibelj 6y ago
As an anecdote, someone I know is an immigrant from HK and has lived in the USA for many years, and this person is afraid of saying anything publicly against China out of fear. Fear for their family in China and fear for their personal safety even in the USA. Similar to how Russia murders defectors [0], it’s not a good idea to be an expat and criticize China. It is an authoritarian regime, bottom line. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvi...
- aww_dang 6y ago
  They've claimed authority to extradite anyone (including non-Chinese citizens) under this new law.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    Good thing I never leave my house anymore!
  - PakG1 6y ago
    That part is REALLY weird.
    - ivalm 6y ago
      It is not weird in that countries enforce what they see as antiterrorism laws outside their borders (US is a prime example). The problem here is that China is targeting essentially anyone with a strong critical voice.
    - throwaway77643 6y ago
      Isn’t that pretty standard? For example, Julian Assange, Kim Dotcom, and Richard O'Dwyer were all prosecuted for crimes committed outside the US.
      - KMag 6y ago
        Kim Dotcom and Richard O'Dwyer were pretty ridiculous, but Julian Assange was trafficking in what he knew were stolen U.S. government secrets. I think there's a good first amendment defence for Assange, based on the public good and his role in whistleblowing, but I can understand why the UK would extradite someone allegedly knowingly handling stolen state secrets of an ally.
breitling 6y ago
This is crazy. First the Muslim concentration camps, now this. Why won't the Western world impose any serious sanctions against China? We have invaded others countries for less
- sumedh 6y ago
  > We have invaded others countries for less Those countries don't have nukes.
- senectus1 6y ago
  Because the self appointed police of the world (that the world insisted wasn't), is too busy shooting itself in its own foot repeatedly right now.
- gruez 6y ago
  >We have invaded others countries for less It's almost as if "democracy" wasn't the real reason for those invasions.
  - creddit 6y ago
    Or maybe it's a power differential thing. Say what you want but pretty happy with the US on Korea, Japan and Germany.
  - jariel 6y ago
    ? The US has never invaded a country for the stated purpose of 'Democracy'. Moving an occupied nation 'on the path of liberalisation and democracy' has always been a 'side goal' but obviously not achievable in most contexts. Like Kuwait. But it obviously was in Korea, Japan, most of Eastern Europe. And the OP is cynical, it takes a lot for the US to mount a proper. Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, and post 9/11 Iraq part 2 + policing actions in Afghanistan are relatively big deals. For the most part, there's no reason for the US and China to 'go to war'. What would they go to war over? The sheer physicality doesn't provide the opportunity. Except for Taiwan - which China will go to great lengths to nab, and the US/West may or may not go to great lengths to defend. Even then I don't see war. China will is not going to otherwise mount a military invasion of anything, it would be too costly. Their version of 'invasion' is called the 'Belt and Road' and it's ensuing corruption.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rmrfnodemodules 6y ago
Meanwhile in NBA: let's all kneel to RMB!
Fricken 6y ago
And in America, anti-democracy tycoon Donald Trump was elected president. The times are changing.
onetimemanytime 6y ago
Power move! If we can arrest him, imagine what we can do to you. China has gone from 0-60mph in record speed. as the article says, anything critical to the Party carries a treason-like sentence.
throwaway-semi 6y ago
Why are we empowering this regime? Shouldn't we force companies like Apple to make a statement of why they manufacture their goods in China? Apple is happy make a statement about BLM - it is cheap, doesn't cost them anything. But when it comes to things that actually harm profits and challenge shareholder responsibilities, they stay mum. We need to force Apple (and other giant corporations) to speak up about atrocities in HK and what their stance is. Before you downvote me, please, I plead you to respond about your thoughts - is there a reason why we shouldn't? Why is there no noise about this? No one seems to be protesting at Apple HQ. Imagine: WWDC 2021 - Opens with strong statements about how Apple supports democracy and open culture, how they appreciate people's voices and ability to think with liberty, how they inspire great people when government is of the people, by the people and for the people. Alas - democracy will slowly erode away, chip away at a pace slow enough for normal humans like me and you to not be bothered, life goes on. One small step after another. Until you look back at the erosion and its a massive cliff.
- tedk-42 6y ago
  Capitalism. Who are the 'we' you're referring to. Why throw a specific company under the bus like that. Consumers pay with their wallet - may I ask what phone you have? I bet more than half the things you own are made in China.
  - throwaway-semi 6y ago
    > Why throw a specific company under the bus like that. I am sorry to throw a 1.9 trillion dollar company under the bus. Yes, I own many made in China products. In fact, it is hard to find anything in my room that's not made in China, including books and bunch of things that I wouldn't even know. Probably the bulb's phosphor coating is manufactured in China and so are the chemicals in my stomach acid tablets.
  - amanzi 6y ago
    "Why throw a specific company under the bus like that" - probably calling out Apple specifically since they are the (or one of the) richest, most profitable companies in the world that still manufactures most of their products in China. They are a company that claim to have strong ethical values, as the OP mentioned in relation to the BLM movement, but they continue to do business with China, an undemocratic country with horrific human rights history. If any significant company were able to make a stand and remove any reliance on China, it would be Apple.
zozin 6y ago
The thought of living in a China-centric world during the twilight of my life on Earth (2050+) makes my hair stand on end. I do not want to be treated as a second class human because of the color of my skin or my ethnicity. I do not want to lose business and professional opportunities because I am not Han. I do not want to live in a world where freedom of speech and expression are long lost memories, where even the rich and powerful have to pay fealty to the emperor or face the ultimate consequence. I do not want to live in a world of ultranationalism and jingoistic ethnocentrism, of repressive regimes that eliminate rights and protections on a whim. I don’t know what the solution is, I do not want war, but that is looking more inevitable than ever at this point.
- throwaway-semi 6y ago
  War is unlikely because of mutual destruction guaranteed by Nuclear weapons. What's most likely is information erosion, brain washing, espionage and political upheaval caused by CCP actors. Be careful what you write on the internet. You'll see the full wrath of CCP cancel culture like you've never seen before in the year 2050. Also, keep an eye on whichever country you belong to and how its government is not influenced by CCP. It might be a little too late for Australia [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/australia/politician-home-raid-china-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/australia/politicia...
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    War is almost guaranteed at this stage.
    - Rebelgecko 6y ago
      Why?
      - rorykoehler 6y ago
        Because the US won’t want to relinquish their global hegemony and PRC has been slowly preparing for the moment when they can make their move.
acomjean 6y ago
The nytimes republished Jimmy Lai’s editorial today. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-national-security-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-n... “Do My Tweets Really Threaten China’s National Security?“
- throwaway5757 6y ago
  Do TikTok Videos Really Threaten America's National Security?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  And the answer is yes, his tweets really do threaten China's national security. People internally questioning the CCP delegitimizes the CPP and Xi. That threatens, not China, but the ruling party. They defined their continued rule as the national security of China.
chloerei 6y ago
As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and think about this event in another way.
- ipsum2 6y ago
  .
  - chloerei 6y ago
    Thanks for replying, if my comment can bring thinking, it will be enough. Because of the Chinese culture of "national unity", intervention in Hong Kong is like intervention in China. I don’t think the analogy of Guam is appropriate. As a strategic priority, Guam is occupied by many countries. Now as a US military base, residents have no right to vote. Hong Kong belonged to China a long time ago. The British captured him through war in 1842 and returned it to China in 1997. Hong Kong currently retains its own administrative system and will fully integrate into China in the future. I am not very familiar with the history of the United States, and I cannot offer a better analogy. If the Guam helps to understand the situation, I have no objection. After all, what I want to say is what Jimmy Lai did.
- mindfulhack 6y ago
  > Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? That would be a wonderful thing if my government were currently persecuting 1 million people solely based on their religious and cultural identity. The consequences would be carried by hope.
  - chloerei 6y ago
themgt 6y ago
I highly recommend doing some reading about what Xi and the CCP are really thinking and planning. It's a fascinating situation, and I'm not sure we or even they precisely know. But there has been a feel of a very dark turn overall in recent years, where perhaps an alignment between an appearance of widespread and growing failures of the US-led world order combined with China's unabated growing power, has cemented in many Chinese a sense that they truly do have the superior system. And if so we should expect to see continued growing trial runs of China flexing its increased power, in part just to see if anyone can stop them. This recent piece from an influential Beijing professor Jiang Shigong[1] of "Xi Jinping Thought" fame, openly frames and justifies China seizing control as leader of the global empire, "Empire and World Order"[2] [The current state of world empire] faces three great unsolvable problems: the ever-increasing inequality created by the liberal economy; state failure, political decline, and ineffective governance caused by political liberalism; and decadence and nihilism created by cultural liberalism. In the face of these difficulties, even the United States has pulled back in terms of worldwide military strategy, which means that world empire 1.0 is currently facing a great crisis, and that revolts, resistance, and revolution from within the empire are unravelling the system. ... We might conclude that we are living in an age of chaos, conflict, and massive change in which world empire 1.0 is in decline and trending toward collapse, while we are as yet unable to imagine world empire 2.0. Yet we must recognize that change in the form of empire is a long historical process. The several thousand years of the history of mankind have witnessed only three great changes in imperial form, and each of these changes has been accompanied by great conflicts and chaos. At the same time, we cannot deny that these ages of historical transition have also created the opportunity for each civilization to construct world empire 2.0. The civilization that is able to provide genuine solutions to the three great problems facing world empire 1.0 will also provide the blueprint for world empire 2.0. As a great world power that must look beyond its own borders, China must reflect on her own future, for her important mission is not only to revive her traditional culture. China must also patiently absorb the skills and achievements of humanity as a whole, and especially those employed by Western civilization to construct world empire. Only on this basis can we see the reconstruction of Chinese civilization and the reconstruction of the world order as a mutually re-enforcing whole. There really is a coherent internal logic to why China can solve the 3 problems identified with the liberal order. A very dystopian logic, in my opinion. But worth some serious thought; where this all is heading. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong [2] https://www.readingthechinadream.com/jiang-shigong-empire-and-world-order.html https://www.readingthechinadream.com/jiang-shigong-empire-an...
ffggvv 6y ago
at what point will we look at our own companies and seriously begin to exam how many ccp agents are already infiltrating them?
jariel 6y ago
We should immediately end any special relation we have and apply PRC rules. China uses HK to access world markets, to launder their money etc. - ending that ability would really hurt them a lot. World nations have no qualms investing in HK entities, for PRC entities it's just a world of confusion. HK is PRC so no more special privileges.
- est 6y ago
  > China uses HK to access world markets, to launder their money etc. - ending that ability would really hurt them a lot. On the contrary. https://imgur.com/gallery/WFl43ZX https://imgur.com/gallery/WFl43ZX The world is benefiting from HK more than China.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jariel 6y ago
    Trade surpluses are not very relevant. HK is how PRC accesses the world's financial markets, we need to shut that off and apply the same rules to HK companies as we do PRC.
88840-8855 6y ago
This is going to be very unpopular. History repeats itself. Just 30 years ago the Soviet Union was dissolved. If you study this dissolution process, you see that demonstrations and the ambition to sovereignty was nothing new in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, but in comparison to the 50s, 60s and 70s, Gorbachev did not use military force to prevent countries from splitting off. If China lets HK go independent, there is a chance of a chain reaction: Guangdong, Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia.. just to name a few. This would mean to total collapse of the PRC. But in comparison to the USSR, China's economy is highly intertwined with the global economy. I would even go that far and say that a successful HK independence movement could have the chance to lead to a total collapse of the global economy on a scale that makes this Corona recession look like a Kindergarden. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE HK, I lived and worked there. I have also lived and worked in Mainland China. It is sad to see that HK will likely become just a random Chinese city and lose its uniqueness. I just wished that there would be a mutual process of this unification and China would move slower towards it, while HK would accept that the China of 2047 will look different from China today.
- jeswin 6y ago
  >If China lets HK go independent.. But HKers aren't even asking for full independence. They want to retain the democracy and freedom they've had so far. And the parallels with Soviet Union's collapse is debatable. At that point Soviet Union was on the brink of economic disaster, while China is at the height of their military and economic power.
  - powerapple 6y ago
    I have to point out that under British rule, there was no democracy. If they want things exactly like they have before, the central government would send a governor to HK instead of having their own governor. China wanted HK to be special and successful, to use it as a showcase for the 'one country two systems' model. Now China just want to not lose HK. Huge change in thinking.
    - ashconnor 6y ago
strogonoff 6y ago
If we are collectively incapable of making any difference in this terrible transformation, then we could do the next thing CCP will hate: do a proper study of how population’s behavior changes as it transitions from a free mentality to the oppressed state mainland’s had been in for years. This is the chance. I'm not aware of any precedents to date, but a rigorous scientific record of this kind would be extremely valuable as a reference proof against future gaslighting and dubious arguments. The process is already under way, anecdotally some normally outgoing folks (Hongkongers and involved) are reluctant to post this on social media or discuss it with you unless they trust the channel.
- erfgh 6y ago
  To do a "proper study" you should be impartial, and you're not being impartial when right out of the bat you call this "a terrible transformation".
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    If a scientist studying cancer calls cancer terrible in a casual conversation, they can still produce valid rigorous work about it. We'd have approximately zero research done if we disqualified everybody with a personal opinion about what they're studying. No one's unbiased, but basic science methodology helps us reveal and eliminate/compensate for our biases. It doesn't matter whether you personally think oppressing human freedom is terrible or not—your work will not be any less useful. Its results may even challenge your own subjective opinion on the matter.
  - mcphage 6y ago
    > To do a "proper study" you should be impartial Why do you believe this? It is very much not true. If you wanted to study, for instance, how societies collapse, you don't need to be impartial about the notion of societal collapse. If you wanted to study war, you don't need to be impartial to war.
  - nouveaux 6y ago
    All science starts with a hypothesis and many of those are rooted in partiality. The point is to have an investigative method which proves or disproves that hypothesis. The fact that science reveals truth even though it can start with partiality is why the scientific method is the gold standard.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fqye 6y ago
When it comes to politics, HN is similar to Reddit. People just comment by emotion and ideology, because they could feel the satisfaction by chanting the beautiful words of democracy and freedom, without burden of insightgul knowledge of history and culture of other people and countries. Some here even wanted to start a war with China in the name of human rights. Remember crusades in the name of Christian? Most people here don't know or don't care if HK was a democracy under UK, and don't care if there is a law to guard the arrest of Jimmy Lai and if ordinary HK people are sick of Ted Cruz etc coming to HK to fan up fire when HK was burning, whom and also other US politicians Jimmy Lai has met with. Edit: For those who don't know, Ted Cruz came over to HK to show his support in Oct. 20019 when HK was burning. And the most despicable was he claimed no riots in HK. That was the moment HK's fate was sealed. https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=4714 https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=4714 https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3032751/ted-cruz-not-just-clueless-cynical-about-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3032751/ted-cru... HK's political movements have no leadership or strategy at all. This kind of acts would turn all Mainland people against them. And CCP would feel empowered to do what ever. My point is the situation in HK is much complicated than beautiful democracy vs evil CCP. It's much more than ideology.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Last year you posted, "HK protect started peacefully now turned into riot with no clear political purpose". Do you now understand why those riots were important ? Because the National Security laws are being used to crackdown on dissent exactly as the HK protestors predicted.
  - fqye 6y ago
    Maybe you got the logic wrong? This arrest is actually an opportunity to test if the new security law has some merits. Jimmy Lai has the resource to defend himself in court. Let's wait for it to unfold.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  I’m going to get downvoted for saying this but I will. The wealthiest people on the planet who actually influence what governments do prioritize wealth accumulation above nationalism presently. If they didn’t every nation wouldn’t be so in bed with each other at this point. The aggression is a display of power and generate a ‘feeling’ of superiority to keep a population content. There won’t be a war. We’ll only see large scale wars again when our environment collapses and wealth extraction is no longer the number one priority. Having food, water, and other natural resources that were once plenty go scarce will cause war. Perhaps this will never happen but I’m assuming it will. The wealth extraction phase will continue to abuse our planet at peak efficiency until Earth can no longer handle it. Then you will have war.
kenneth 6y ago
As an expat living in Hong Kong, I've noticed a clear change of mood since the ramming-through of the National Security Law last month. Protests have all but died, and people are genuinely aware of having lost their relative freedoms of speech and assembly. Businesses on the "yellow" (pro-protest) side are distancing themselves from their support of the movement. Politicians are quitting opposition parties because they're afraid of being disappeared. Individuals are afraid to go out and protest. A friend recently asked me to keep a hard hat for her because she was afraid that if she was caught with it at her house it'd be evidence she participate in the protests. China has basically given up any semblance of autonomy for Hong Kong. It's clear who runs the show here. Carrie Lam is universally despised (her approval ratings make Trump look like Mother Theresa). Nobody respects authority anymore. It's clear in daily life.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- koheripbal 6y ago
  While the timeline was accelerated this year, it's hard to imagine that there could have been a different outcome. It's been decades now since the UK formally handed over HK to the Chinese central government, and the Chinese have always said they would integrate it slowly into mainland China. Hundreds of thousands of HKers have been migrating out of China for decades. I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be autonomous permanently?
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be autonomous permanently? No one did, but the treaty said it would semi-autonomous for 50 years. These actions are 27 years early, so they didn't even keep their end of the deal for half the time they promised. Also, a lot can happen in three decades, and one could have held out hope that the PRC could have undergone some kind of liberal reforms before the treaty expired.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    "Slowly" turned into "slowly, and then all at once". And, as ardy42 pointed out, earlier than the deal said.
mindfulhack 6y ago
If you're feeling despair, there are real things that you can do. I do one thing that makes me proud every day. I run an obfs4 Tor bridge on an old Linux Mint box that's just sitting around in my home.* The bare minimum thing that Chinese and any other country's citizens need is information, and freedom of information. This is where tech truly, truly helps. [*] Yes, they may first need to connect to a working VPN, but that's OK, to really become free they can then connect to a Tor bridge like mine.
- shgidi 6y ago
  How is it useful? (Sorry for my ignorance)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - toxik 6y ago
    I am more worried being implicated with distribution of child pornography. The government is watching what comes through the pipes, and it’s your name on the pipe.
    - mindfulhack 6y ago
      Oh in my case it's an entry bridge I run, not an exit relay. That's the one you really need to worry about being. It's not recommended anyone does that (at least at home). What I'm recommending is very safe as it doesn't directly connect your computer or IP address to anything bad. I've run this node for about 2 years now. Tor project has excellent explainer pages about the risks and how it all works. If however you mean not being involved with the Tor project in any capacity whatsoever, I really insist that that's the wrong, and a very dangerous anti-freedom philosophy to take. At some point, we have to take a stand and defend the right to absolute encryption for anybody, no questions asked. Why? Because this is the normal human experience. Privacy is normal and healthy. Having everything you do recorded and stored by others permanently, is not normal or healthy. The more you use and promote the use of encryption, privacy and anti-censorship technologies in benign and good contexts like mine, the less it's dismissed as an automatic indicator of crime. As far as I'm concerned, I consider myself lucky that I have legal freedom of association in my own country so that I can even safely run this Tor bridge. As to the court of public opinion on the social level in my community, all I need to do is explain this important humanitarian use case that I do it for.
shgidi 6y ago
Its 1939 all over again
- orbifold 6y ago
  Hongkong == Danzig Taiwan == Poland
- zanmat0 6y ago
  Save your baseless hyperbole for Reddit please.
mamborambo 6y ago
Jimmy Lai is one of the most inspiring democrat activist of HK. With his wealth, he could have arranged a refuge and left HK months ago, instead of staying and being exposed to the increasingly beligerant CCP/Hong Kong bootlickers. A sad day for HK. I hope the world does not let him be detained indefinitely, like what has happened to Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  The world may not have many options to help. They can raise a stink, and they can make things a bit economically painful for China. But China can choose to ignore both of those.
xxllhan 6y ago
Some simple logic: 1. US media is capable of being biased on certain subjects (FOX news, Trump), for more clicks, or for political reasons 2. China is a long term threat to US economy and political systems, and is generally hated by the people right now 3. Thus it's possible that what you read everyday is biased 4. Then you hate China more, then media notices that and be more biased. It's a loop leading to justified extreme actions. Just keep this possibility in mind As a Chinese living in the US, reading China related news/comments is like watching FOX, or Trump watching CNN. Maybe I am also biased, but that's my feeling.
- pirisek453 6y ago
  "Have you been to Xinjiang yourself? You know, Xinjiang is regarded as the most beautiful place in (China)" - quote from the China Ambassador to UK when asked why Uyghur Muslims were hooded and loaded onto trains. An average American has no reason to hate on China, but it doesn't mean we can't stand up for the ethnic groups that are being oppressed within China's borders. The congressional testimonies by the Uyghurs refugees is truly terrifying. Doing business with China literally means you are in support of their government's actions. T-shirts, medical masks, a regular bottle of ketchup, its all made from slave labor in Xinjiang.
eSephiroth 6y ago
Less arguing, more tools.that's what hacker shall do. Tor don't work well in China. So is VPN. Chinese don't even know it exist. It's hard for none tech people. Even all Smart tech people in China know how to use these tools, it's still less than 0.00001. Make some virus-like dummy tools, that's what hacker shall do. As far as mobile or PC infected. They will connect global internet not China LAN. It must infect nearby devices as well. That's the only way to help.

445 points by aww_dang 6y ago

iampims 6y ago

This is chilling. Democracy in HK is forever gone.

ivalm 6y ago
Hopefully not forever, I do believe in change for the better, but for now CCP is an evil force of repression.
- actuator 6y ago
  I really don't see any change that can realistically take roots there. We have seen harsh sanctions fail to bring changes in a small poor country like NK where anyone looking South must be amazed at where they could have been. In case of PRC, forget a kinetic physical action. Their economy is so interconnected with every other major economy that no one can afford even actual sanctions.
  - pm90 6y ago
    The most practical outcome seems to be a gradual emigration of all the HK citizens to the UK/other countries. I can imagine citizens forming networks where they would warn each other of an upcoming arrest so their friends/family would scurry out of the country. I am hopeful that the sheer number of citizens in HK would perhaps lead to the city retaining some of its independence. We can't predict the future... who knows? What if Xi dies in the next 5 years and his successor isn't such a hardliner?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - actuator 6y ago
      I think that is easy for us as outsiders to say or hope. Leaving everything behind and moving into a foreign land with a different culture is hard and not a lot of places are very welcoming.
    - petre 6y ago
      It's too late for any of that now.
    - terenceng2010 6y ago
      Some professions like teacher are tough to find a similar role in other country. Different qualication, teaching language and teaching method they have to accomendate. It's a tough call to them. For IT profession though, it's more flexible. Personally, I have worked in a multi-nation develop team, and the experience is good.
  - throwaway77643 6y ago
    In the 1920s, I don’t think any person could have imagined the progress in Civil Rights that would occur in America. And yet it happened. From racist Jim Crow laws to Gay Rights, the progress made in 100 years is astonishing. Give the PRC 100 years and who knows how it might change.
    - ffggvv 6y ago
      yes because we have democracy, a constitution, and a working court system and free speech. china has none of that
    - peanutz454 6y ago
      I guess that's exactly what Thatcher thought would happen when she handed over Hong Kong - That China will make progress towards liberalism in politics and economics. Instead of China becoming like the rest of the world, I am wary of the world becoming like China. Progress has been made in the past, but cannot take that for-granted.
      - toyg 6y ago
        Thatcher did not “hand over” anything - the lease of HK would expire in 1997, so the UK government had no legal basis to stick around unless the Chinese allowed them to. Unsurprisingly, a “restored” China, now nuclear, said no. Thatcher failed to persuade them otherwise, despite years of negotiations, and was effectively forced to swallow the handover.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      > In the 1920s, I don’t think any person could have imagined the progress in Civil Rights that would occur in America. No one imagined it in the 1920s because they had already imagined it in the 1860s but got Jim Crow instead. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        And yet, those who didn't imagine it in the 1920's still got civil rights in the 1960s. So in your view, what were we supposed to learn from history?
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > In case of PRC, forget a kinetic physical action. Their economy is so interconnected with every other major economy that no one can afford even actual sanctions. Not suddenly, but every other major economy could probably afford a gradual distancing that ends up in more-or-less the same place.
    - actuator 6y ago
      US's bipartisan opposition might just be electioneering. I think Germany's actions speak far more than any other country's. I would have assumed someone like Merkel to be tough here based on her standing on social issues and how she handled the migrant crisis. She, at least in the West had an image of a liberal leader with the right attitude on challenges of our times like climate change. But even Germany seems to be tiptoeing around while they look to sign a trade deal.
scoot_718 6y ago
So too is any success that HK had. China really made the golden goose disappear under mysterious circumstances.

wjossey 6y ago

Steve Lookner runs Agenda Free TV on YouTube, and does a great job covering these types of breaking events. Currently wrapping up a live stream of the arrests and searches right now: https://youtu.be/Db7ON82kBGA https://youtu.be/Db7ON82kBGA

seibelj 6y ago

As an anecdote, someone I know is an immigrant from HK and has lived in the USA for many years, and this person is afraid of saying anything publicly against China out of fear. Fear for their family in China and fear for their personal safety even in the USA. Similar to how Russia murders defectors [0], it’s not a good idea to be an expat and criticize China. It is an authoritarian regime, bottom line. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvi...

aww_dang 6y ago
They've claimed authority to extradite anyone (including non-Chinese citizens) under this new law.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Good thing I never leave my house anymore!
- PakG1 6y ago
  That part is REALLY weird.
  - ivalm 6y ago
    It is not weird in that countries enforce what they see as antiterrorism laws outside their borders (US is a prime example). The problem here is that China is targeting essentially anyone with a strong critical voice.
  - throwaway77643 6y ago
    Isn’t that pretty standard? For example, Julian Assange, Kim Dotcom, and Richard O'Dwyer were all prosecuted for crimes committed outside the US.
    - KMag 6y ago
      Kim Dotcom and Richard O'Dwyer were pretty ridiculous, but Julian Assange was trafficking in what he knew were stolen U.S. government secrets. I think there's a good first amendment defence for Assange, based on the public good and his role in whistleblowing, but I can understand why the UK would extradite someone allegedly knowingly handling stolen state secrets of an ally.

breitling 6y ago

This is crazy. First the Muslim concentration camps, now this. Why won't the Western world impose any serious sanctions against China? We have invaded others countries for less

sumedh 6y ago
> We have invaded others countries for less Those countries don't have nukes.
senectus1 6y ago
Because the self appointed police of the world (that the world insisted wasn't), is too busy shooting itself in its own foot repeatedly right now.
gruez 6y ago
>We have invaded others countries for less It's almost as if "democracy" wasn't the real reason for those invasions.
- creddit 6y ago
  Or maybe it's a power differential thing. Say what you want but pretty happy with the US on Korea, Japan and Germany.
- jariel 6y ago
  ? The US has never invaded a country for the stated purpose of 'Democracy'. Moving an occupied nation 'on the path of liberalisation and democracy' has always been a 'side goal' but obviously not achievable in most contexts. Like Kuwait. But it obviously was in Korea, Japan, most of Eastern Europe. And the OP is cynical, it takes a lot for the US to mount a proper. Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, and post 9/11 Iraq part 2 + policing actions in Afghanistan are relatively big deals. For the most part, there's no reason for the US and China to 'go to war'. What would they go to war over? The sheer physicality doesn't provide the opportunity. Except for Taiwan - which China will go to great lengths to nab, and the US/West may or may not go to great lengths to defend. Even then I don't see war. China will is not going to otherwise mount a military invasion of anything, it would be too costly. Their version of 'invasion' is called the 'Belt and Road' and it's ensuing corruption.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

rmrfnodemodules 6y ago

Meanwhile in NBA: let's all kneel to RMB!

Fricken 6y ago

And in America, anti-democracy tycoon Donald Trump was elected president. The times are changing.

onetimemanytime 6y ago

Power move! If we can arrest him, imagine what we can do to you. China has gone from 0-60mph in record speed. as the article says, anything critical to the Party carries a treason-like sentence.

throwaway-semi 6y ago

Why are we empowering this regime? Shouldn't we force companies like Apple to make a statement of why they manufacture their goods in China? Apple is happy make a statement about BLM - it is cheap, doesn't cost them anything. But when it comes to things that actually harm profits and challenge shareholder responsibilities, they stay mum. We need to force Apple (and other giant corporations) to speak up about atrocities in HK and what their stance is. Before you downvote me, please, I plead you to respond about your thoughts - is there a reason why we shouldn't? Why is there no noise about this? No one seems to be protesting at Apple HQ. Imagine: WWDC 2021 - Opens with strong statements about how Apple supports democracy and open culture, how they appreciate people's voices and ability to think with liberty, how they inspire great people when government is of the people, by the people and for the people. Alas - democracy will slowly erode away, chip away at a pace slow enough for normal humans like me and you to not be bothered, life goes on. One small step after another. Until you look back at the erosion and its a massive cliff.

tedk-42 6y ago
Capitalism. Who are the 'we' you're referring to. Why throw a specific company under the bus like that. Consumers pay with their wallet - may I ask what phone you have? I bet more than half the things you own are made in China.
- throwaway-semi 6y ago
  > Why throw a specific company under the bus like that. I am sorry to throw a 1.9 trillion dollar company under the bus. Yes, I own many made in China products. In fact, it is hard to find anything in my room that's not made in China, including books and bunch of things that I wouldn't even know. Probably the bulb's phosphor coating is manufactured in China and so are the chemicals in my stomach acid tablets.
- amanzi 6y ago
  "Why throw a specific company under the bus like that" - probably calling out Apple specifically since they are the (or one of the) richest, most profitable companies in the world that still manufactures most of their products in China. They are a company that claim to have strong ethical values, as the OP mentioned in relation to the BLM movement, but they continue to do business with China, an undemocratic country with horrific human rights history. If any significant company were able to make a stand and remove any reliance on China, it would be Apple.

zozin 6y ago

The thought of living in a China-centric world during the twilight of my life on Earth (2050+) makes my hair stand on end. I do not want to be treated as a second class human because of the color of my skin or my ethnicity. I do not want to lose business and professional opportunities because I am not Han. I do not want to live in a world where freedom of speech and expression are long lost memories, where even the rich and powerful have to pay fealty to the emperor or face the ultimate consequence. I do not want to live in a world of ultranationalism and jingoistic ethnocentrism, of repressive regimes that eliminate rights and protections on a whim. I don’t know what the solution is, I do not want war, but that is looking more inevitable than ever at this point.

throwaway-semi 6y ago
War is unlikely because of mutual destruction guaranteed by Nuclear weapons. What's most likely is information erosion, brain washing, espionage and political upheaval caused by CCP actors. Be careful what you write on the internet. You'll see the full wrath of CCP cancel culture like you've never seen before in the year 2050. Also, keep an eye on whichever country you belong to and how its government is not influenced by CCP. It might be a little too late for Australia [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/australia/politician-home-raid-china-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/australia/politicia...
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  War is almost guaranteed at this stage.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Why?
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      Because the US won’t want to relinquish their global hegemony and PRC has been slowly preparing for the moment when they can make their move.

acomjean 6y ago

The nytimes republished Jimmy Lai’s editorial today. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-national-security-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-n... “Do My Tweets Really Threaten China’s National Security?“

throwaway5757 6y ago
Do TikTok Videos Really Threaten America's National Security?
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
And the answer is yes, his tweets really do threaten China's national security. People internally questioning the CCP delegitimizes the CPP and Xi. That threatens, not China, but the ruling party. They defined their continued rule as the national security of China.

chloerei 6y ago

As a Chinese, I think it is reasonable to arrest a leader who violated the national security law. Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? Please read more media from a different standpoint and think about this event in another way.

ipsum2 6y ago
.
- chloerei 6y ago
  Thanks for replying, if my comment can bring thinking, it will be enough. Because of the Chinese culture of "national unity", intervention in Hong Kong is like intervention in China. I don’t think the analogy of Guam is appropriate. As a strategic priority, Guam is occupied by many countries. Now as a US military base, residents have no right to vote. Hong Kong belonged to China a long time ago. The British captured him through war in 1842 and returned it to China in 1997. Hong Kong currently retains its own administrative system and will fully integrate into China in the future. I am not very familiar with the history of the United States, and I cannot offer a better analogy. If the Guam helps to understand the situation, I have no objection. After all, what I want to say is what Jimmy Lai did.
mindfulhack 6y ago
> Think of a US media tycoon who went to China to meet with the Secretary of State, used the media to incite riots in his country, appeared on the streets of protest, and publicly called on China to intervene in the United States. What are the consequences of this? That would be a wonderful thing if my government were currently persecuting 1 million people solely based on their religious and cultural identity. The consequences would be carried by hope.
- chloerei 6y ago

themgt 6y ago

I highly recommend doing some reading about what Xi and the CCP are really thinking and planning. It's a fascinating situation, and I'm not sure we or even they precisely know. But there has been a feel of a very dark turn overall in recent years, where perhaps an alignment between an appearance of widespread and growing failures of the US-led world order combined with China's unabated growing power, has cemented in many Chinese a sense that they truly do have the superior system. And if so we should expect to see continued growing trial runs of China flexing its increased power, in part just to see if anyone can stop them. This recent piece from an influential Beijing professor Jiang Shigong[1] of "Xi Jinping Thought" fame, openly frames and justifies China seizing control as leader of the global empire, "Empire and World Order"[2] [The current state of world empire] faces three great unsolvable problems: the ever-increasing inequality created by the liberal economy; state failure, political decline, and ineffective governance caused by political liberalism; and decadence and nihilism created by cultural liberalism. In the face of these difficulties, even the United States has pulled back in terms of worldwide military strategy, which means that world empire 1.0 is currently facing a great crisis, and that revolts, resistance, and revolution from within the empire are unravelling the system. ... We might conclude that we are living in an age of chaos, conflict, and massive change in which world empire 1.0 is in decline and trending toward collapse, while we are as yet unable to imagine world empire 2.0. Yet we must recognize that change in the form of empire is a long historical process. The several thousand years of the history of mankind have witnessed only three great changes in imperial form, and each of these changes has been accompanied by great conflicts and chaos. At the same time, we cannot deny that these ages of historical transition have also created the opportunity for each civilization to construct world empire 2.0. The civilization that is able to provide genuine solutions to the three great problems facing world empire 1.0 will also provide the blueprint for world empire 2.0. As a great world power that must look beyond its own borders, China must reflect on her own future, for her important mission is not only to revive her traditional culture. China must also patiently absorb the skills and achievements of humanity as a whole, and especially those employed by Western civilization to construct world empire. Only on this basis can we see the reconstruction of Chinese civilization and the reconstruction of the world order as a mutually re-enforcing whole. There really is a coherent internal logic to why China can solve the 3 problems identified with the liberal order. A very dystopian logic, in my opinion. But worth some serious thought; where this all is heading. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong [2] https://www.readingthechinadream.com/jiang-shigong-empire-and-world-order.html https://www.readingthechinadream.com/jiang-shigong-empire-an...

ffggvv 6y ago

at what point will we look at our own companies and seriously begin to exam how many ccp agents are already infiltrating them?

jariel 6y ago

We should immediately end any special relation we have and apply PRC rules. China uses HK to access world markets, to launder their money etc. - ending that ability would really hurt them a lot. World nations have no qualms investing in HK entities, for PRC entities it's just a world of confusion. HK is PRC so no more special privileges.

est 6y ago
> China uses HK to access world markets, to launder their money etc. - ending that ability would really hurt them a lot. On the contrary. https://imgur.com/gallery/WFl43ZX https://imgur.com/gallery/WFl43ZX The world is benefiting from HK more than China.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jariel 6y ago
  Trade surpluses are not very relevant. HK is how PRC accesses the world's financial markets, we need to shut that off and apply the same rules to HK companies as we do PRC.

88840-8855 6y ago

This is going to be very unpopular. History repeats itself. Just 30 years ago the Soviet Union was dissolved. If you study this dissolution process, you see that demonstrations and the ambition to sovereignty was nothing new in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, but in comparison to the 50s, 60s and 70s, Gorbachev did not use military force to prevent countries from splitting off. If China lets HK go independent, there is a chance of a chain reaction: Guangdong, Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia.. just to name a few. This would mean to total collapse of the PRC. But in comparison to the USSR, China's economy is highly intertwined with the global economy. I would even go that far and say that a successful HK independence movement could have the chance to lead to a total collapse of the global economy on a scale that makes this Corona recession look like a Kindergarden. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE HK, I lived and worked there. I have also lived and worked in Mainland China. It is sad to see that HK will likely become just a random Chinese city and lose its uniqueness. I just wished that there would be a mutual process of this unification and China would move slower towards it, while HK would accept that the China of 2047 will look different from China today.

jeswin 6y ago
>If China lets HK go independent.. But HKers aren't even asking for full independence. They want to retain the democracy and freedom they've had so far. And the parallels with Soviet Union's collapse is debatable. At that point Soviet Union was on the brink of economic disaster, while China is at the height of their military and economic power.
- powerapple 6y ago
  I have to point out that under British rule, there was no democracy. If they want things exactly like they have before, the central government would send a governor to HK instead of having their own governor. China wanted HK to be special and successful, to use it as a showcase for the 'one country two systems' model. Now China just want to not lose HK. Huge change in thinking.
  - ashconnor 6y ago

strogonoff 6y ago

If we are collectively incapable of making any difference in this terrible transformation, then we could do the next thing CCP will hate: do a proper study of how population’s behavior changes as it transitions from a free mentality to the oppressed state mainland’s had been in for years. This is the chance. I'm not aware of any precedents to date, but a rigorous scientific record of this kind would be extremely valuable as a reference proof against future gaslighting and dubious arguments. The process is already under way, anecdotally some normally outgoing folks (Hongkongers and involved) are reluctant to post this on social media or discuss it with you unless they trust the channel.

erfgh 6y ago
To do a "proper study" you should be impartial, and you're not being impartial when right out of the bat you call this "a terrible transformation".
- strogonoff 6y ago
  If a scientist studying cancer calls cancer terrible in a casual conversation, they can still produce valid rigorous work about it. We'd have approximately zero research done if we disqualified everybody with a personal opinion about what they're studying. No one's unbiased, but basic science methodology helps us reveal and eliminate/compensate for our biases. It doesn't matter whether you personally think oppressing human freedom is terrible or not—your work will not be any less useful. Its results may even challenge your own subjective opinion on the matter.
- mcphage 6y ago
  > To do a "proper study" you should be impartial Why do you believe this? It is very much not true. If you wanted to study, for instance, how societies collapse, you don't need to be impartial about the notion of societal collapse. If you wanted to study war, you don't need to be impartial to war.
- nouveaux 6y ago
  All science starts with a hypothesis and many of those are rooted in partiality. The point is to have an investigative method which proves or disproves that hypothesis. The fact that science reveals truth even though it can start with partiality is why the scientific method is the gold standard.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

fqye 6y ago

When it comes to politics, HN is similar to Reddit. People just comment by emotion and ideology, because they could feel the satisfaction by chanting the beautiful words of democracy and freedom, without burden of insightgul knowledge of history and culture of other people and countries. Some here even wanted to start a war with China in the name of human rights. Remember crusades in the name of Christian? Most people here don't know or don't care if HK was a democracy under UK, and don't care if there is a law to guard the arrest of Jimmy Lai and if ordinary HK people are sick of Ted Cruz etc coming to HK to fan up fire when HK was burning, whom and also other US politicians Jimmy Lai has met with. Edit: For those who don't know, Ted Cruz came over to HK to show his support in Oct. 20019 when HK was burning. And the most despicable was he claimed no riots in HK. That was the moment HK's fate was sealed. https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=4714 https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=4714 https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3032751/ted-cruz-not-just-clueless-cynical-about-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3032751/ted-cru... HK's political movements have no leadership or strategy at all. This kind of acts would turn all Mainland people against them. And CCP would feel empowered to do what ever. My point is the situation in HK is much complicated than beautiful democracy vs evil CCP. It's much more than ideology.

threeseed 6y ago
Last year you posted, "HK protect started peacefully now turned into riot with no clear political purpose". Do you now understand why those riots were important ? Because the National Security laws are being used to crackdown on dissent exactly as the HK protestors predicted.
- fqye 6y ago
  Maybe you got the logic wrong? This arrest is actually an opportunity to test if the new security law has some merits. Jimmy Lai has the resource to defend himself in court. Let's wait for it to unfold.
almost_usual 6y ago
I’m going to get downvoted for saying this but I will. The wealthiest people on the planet who actually influence what governments do prioritize wealth accumulation above nationalism presently. If they didn’t every nation wouldn’t be so in bed with each other at this point. The aggression is a display of power and generate a ‘feeling’ of superiority to keep a population content. There won’t be a war. We’ll only see large scale wars again when our environment collapses and wealth extraction is no longer the number one priority. Having food, water, and other natural resources that were once plenty go scarce will cause war. Perhaps this will never happen but I’m assuming it will. The wealth extraction phase will continue to abuse our planet at peak efficiency until Earth can no longer handle it. Then you will have war.

kenneth 6y ago

As an expat living in Hong Kong, I've noticed a clear change of mood since the ramming-through of the National Security Law last month. Protests have all but died, and people are genuinely aware of having lost their relative freedoms of speech and assembly. Businesses on the "yellow" (pro-protest) side are distancing themselves from their support of the movement. Politicians are quitting opposition parties because they're afraid of being disappeared. Individuals are afraid to go out and protest. A friend recently asked me to keep a hard hat for her because she was afraid that if she was caught with it at her house it'd be evidence she participate in the protests. China has basically given up any semblance of autonomy for Hong Kong. It's clear who runs the show here. Carrie Lam is universally despised (her approval ratings make Trump look like Mother Theresa). Nobody respects authority anymore. It's clear in daily life.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
koheripbal 6y ago
While the timeline was accelerated this year, it's hard to imagine that there could have been a different outcome. It's been decades now since the UK formally handed over HK to the Chinese central government, and the Chinese have always said they would integrate it slowly into mainland China. Hundreds of thousands of HKers have been migrating out of China for decades. I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be autonomous permanently?
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be autonomous permanently? No one did, but the treaty said it would semi-autonomous for 50 years. These actions are 27 years early, so they didn't even keep their end of the deal for half the time they promised. Also, a lot can happen in three decades, and one could have held out hope that the PRC could have undergone some kind of liberal reforms before the treaty expired.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  "Slowly" turned into "slowly, and then all at once". And, as ardy42 pointed out, earlier than the deal said.

mindfulhack 6y ago

If you're feeling despair, there are real things that you can do. I do one thing that makes me proud every day. I run an obfs4 Tor bridge on an old Linux Mint box that's just sitting around in my home.* The bare minimum thing that Chinese and any other country's citizens need is information, and freedom of information. This is where tech truly, truly helps. [*] Yes, they may first need to connect to a working VPN, but that's OK, to really become free they can then connect to a Tor bridge like mine.

shgidi 6y ago
How is it useful? (Sorry for my ignorance)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- toxik 6y ago
  I am more worried being implicated with distribution of child pornography. The government is watching what comes through the pipes, and it’s your name on the pipe.
  - mindfulhack 6y ago
    Oh in my case it's an entry bridge I run, not an exit relay. That's the one you really need to worry about being. It's not recommended anyone does that (at least at home). What I'm recommending is very safe as it doesn't directly connect your computer or IP address to anything bad. I've run this node for about 2 years now. Tor project has excellent explainer pages about the risks and how it all works. If however you mean not being involved with the Tor project in any capacity whatsoever, I really insist that that's the wrong, and a very dangerous anti-freedom philosophy to take. At some point, we have to take a stand and defend the right to absolute encryption for anybody, no questions asked. Why? Because this is the normal human experience. Privacy is normal and healthy. Having everything you do recorded and stored by others permanently, is not normal or healthy. The more you use and promote the use of encryption, privacy and anti-censorship technologies in benign and good contexts like mine, the less it's dismissed as an automatic indicator of crime. As far as I'm concerned, I consider myself lucky that I have legal freedom of association in my own country so that I can even safely run this Tor bridge. As to the court of public opinion on the social level in my community, all I need to do is explain this important humanitarian use case that I do it for.

shgidi 6y ago

Its 1939 all over again

orbifold 6y ago
Hongkong == Danzig Taiwan == Poland
zanmat0 6y ago
Save your baseless hyperbole for Reddit please.

mamborambo 6y ago

Jimmy Lai is one of the most inspiring democrat activist of HK. With his wealth, he could have arranged a refuge and left HK months ago, instead of staying and being exposed to the increasingly beligerant CCP/Hong Kong bootlickers. A sad day for HK. I hope the world does not let him be detained indefinitely, like what has happened to Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
The world may not have many options to help. They can raise a stink, and they can make things a bit economically painful for China. But China can choose to ignore both of those.

xxllhan 6y ago

Some simple logic: 1. US media is capable of being biased on certain subjects (FOX news, Trump), for more clicks, or for political reasons 2. China is a long term threat to US economy and political systems, and is generally hated by the people right now 3. Thus it's possible that what you read everyday is biased 4. Then you hate China more, then media notices that and be more biased. It's a loop leading to justified extreme actions. Just keep this possibility in mind As a Chinese living in the US, reading China related news/comments is like watching FOX, or Trump watching CNN. Maybe I am also biased, but that's my feeling.

pirisek453 6y ago
"Have you been to Xinjiang yourself? You know, Xinjiang is regarded as the most beautiful place in (China)" - quote from the China Ambassador to UK when asked why Uyghur Muslims were hooded and loaded onto trains. An average American has no reason to hate on China, but it doesn't mean we can't stand up for the ethnic groups that are being oppressed within China's borders. The congressional testimonies by the Uyghurs refugees is truly terrifying. Doing business with China literally means you are in support of their government's actions. T-shirts, medical masks, a regular bottle of ketchup, its all made from slave labor in Xinjiang.

eSephiroth 6y ago

Less arguing, more tools.that's what hacker shall do. Tor don't work well in China. So is VPN. Chinese don't even know it exist. It's hard for none tech people. Even all Smart tech people in China know how to use these tools, it's still less than 0.00001. Make some virus-like dummy tools, that's what hacker shall do. As far as mobile or PC infected. They will connect global internet not China LAN. It must infect nearby devices as well. That's the only way to help.